Darth Revan and Darth Malak vs. NJO Luke and Mace Windu

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I personally have to give Mace a better chance against Revan than anyone featured in the movies. Not because he is superior to them, but because of his fighting style. Now, while obviously an extremely skilled duelist on his own, it's Revan's remarkable precognition that allows him nigh invincibility against most. Now, people who disagree with this are either going to have to choose from two options concerning the Dark Lord:

1) The theory is correct; Revan's pre-cog is one of the major factors in his [B]dueling skill, not Force abilities, but the ability to win a duel.

2) The precognition really isn't all that great, and so does not help very much in a duel.

Now, the reason that Revan's precognition is important in this argument is because of its characteristics. "Tactical Prediction", right? If so, Mace has an excellent chance of staving him off for a time because of Vaapad, the form that completely defies prediction. It is unpredictability in raw form, wielded by arguably the most talented swordsman the Jedi Order has had in its ranks.

So, if option one is chosen, Mace will be able to hold off Revan for some time, enough for Luke to thrash Malak and assist the kill.

If option two is chosen, then Revan's precognition is not as effective as many of you seem to claim.

I'd personally go for #1, since of course, it is my theory.

Now, nobody misunderstand me here. I am in no way saying that Mace would defeat Revan in a duel. But he would give Revan some trouble, seeing as how his unpredictability in Vaapad nearly nullifies Revan's precog advantage.

And it helps to have three mastered forms (Ataru, Djem So, Juyo/Vaapad) to call upon in a duel. [/B]

Anyone have an opinion on this theory? Please ask questions if it seems unclear or incorrect; I didn't formulate it exactly how I wished it to be. . .

How do we know that Revan was a skilled lightsaber duelest?

Lol, what?

One question, whats to stop Revan from using the Force?

Nothing; nothing at all. But I could say the same for Luke and Malak. I'm merely explaining how I think a duel would go. And, depending on the attack, I don't think Revan could easily overwhelm Mace with Force powers.

True but Mace couldn't hold him off that long in a Force duel.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Anyone have an opinion on this theory? Please ask questions if it seems unclear or incorrect; I didn't formulate it exactly how I wished it to be. . .

Well...I agree with you that Mace can give Revan some trouble.

But I think from the people featured in the movies Yoda would have a better chance to defeat Revan because the way he uses Ataru is even more unpredictable than Maces Vaapad (jumps over the opponents head / changing direction while in air jumping around), he is a smaller target and can use completely uncommon lightsaber methods (Tràkata).

True but Mace couldn't hold him off that long in a Force duel.

Well, yeah, but it's not like Revan could outright crush him either. Mace is commonly underestimated in terms of his Force abilities. Just because he doesn't display fancy use of the Force doesn't mean he's not strong in it. . . Let's see here:

Yoda is considered to be slightly stronger than Sidious around here, so let's say that he's 105% Sidious' power. Now, Mace, as his second in command, is commonly referred to as being either "second only to Yoda" or "on par with the venerable Yoda". The latter is from the Star Wars site; the former, Wikipedia.

Now, do you really think that Mace can be far behind 80%, maybe 90%, of Sidious or Yoda's maximum power? I can't lead myself to think that a man who is considered on par with Yoda, and defeated Sidious in a fair duel, even deflecting his most powerful lightning, can be far behind 90% of either of these beings.

Will this necessarily protect him? No, but Revan probably isn't much more powerful in raw power than Yoda, maybe 110%, 115% of Sidious. So, he won;t be able to outright crush him with power. He may break through Mace's defenses sooner or later, but not as easily as is implied.

But in Shatterpoint doesn't Mace say he is nowhere near Yoda?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...I agree with you that Mace can give Revan some trouble.

[b]But I think from the people featured in the movies Yoda would have a better chance to defeat Revan because the way he uses Ataru is even more unpredictable than Maces Vaapad (jumps over the opponents head / changing direction while in air jumping around), he is a smaller target and can use completely uncommon lightsaber methods (Tràkata). [/B]

I guess, but you've said so yourself, Mace has mastered both Ataru and Djem So alongside Vaapad. So one moment he could use a Djem So attack; predicted by Revan, maybe. Then another, then suddenly an Ataru attack from above; Revan's getting confused now, hard to predict what's coming next. And now, a Vaapad attack, completely uncontrolled, seemingly novice. Revan is thrown from his realm of concentration, now somewhat struggling to fend off Mace's chaotic and sudden attacks.

See what I'm getting at? In defeating Revan, Yoda might be better in terms of his Force defense, etc. But I believe Mace is all but on Yoda's level in saber combat. Just my opinion, from what I've learned here.

But my main point in that theory was the one concerning Revan and his precognition. What'd you make of that?

Revan's battle pre-cog applies in battle was well. The battle pre-cog the Handmaiden unlocks withint he Exile is a battle technique. She says (And she could be exaggerating at this point) that Echani elders can predict battles from hours to days to years in advance, but we have no proof of this. All we do know is that Revan's battle pre-cognition was on par with or perhaps better than the Exile's, in which case he would have the normal Jedi enhanced defenses AND something else which would frustrate even Mace, I'm thinking. Mace has a shot, I admit that much, but Revan is no Sidious; he's obviously in a different league.

The problem is you have NJO Luke in this thread and since he is an overpowered asswhole he decides the fight.

True, but what I'm saying is somewhat of an ultimatum:

1) Revan's pre-cog is a large part of why he is such a good duelist, and without it (stalled by unpredicatbility), he's good, but not what he was.

2) Revan's pre-cog is minor, and should not be considered.

Oh my bad.

?

I thought you were talking about the Duel between NJO Luke ect...

Ah. . .

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
True, but what I'm saying is somewhat of an ultimatum:

1) Revan's pre-cog is a large part of why he is such a good duelist, and without it (stalled by unpredicatbility), he's good, but not what he was.

2) Revan's pre-cog is minor, and should not be considered.

1- The unpredictibility you're refering to is derived from Juyo, and would be familiar to Revan, thus not giving Mace a total advantage.

2- Possibly, but unfortunately we can't determine that now. I would think that Revan could put up an excellent fight against Mace and perhaps destroy him (If he were Sith Lord Revan) but it could potentially go in Mace's favor as well.

Hey I am obsessed with Revan, but where does it say that Revan was master lightsaber duelist. Oh and Janus your a genius I finally got KOTOR 2 to work!

1) Well, true, but according to some, including Rex and Nai, Mace has mastered both Ataru and Djem So in the process of mastering his Juyo/Vaapad hybrid. By switching between these forms rapidly, unexpectedly, he could hamper Revan's ability to defend himself. I'm not saying that he would completely and utterly crush Revan's defenses, but with the addition of Vaapad, it might surprise him enough to give Mace the edge he needs, enough to hold Revan while Luke finished Malak.

2) Oh, I'm not saying Darth Revan would certainly be felled by Windu. A Jedi version, possibly, as you say, but a Sith Lord? Maybe not. However, I am saying that Mace's skills would help enough so that he could last longer against Revan than Malak could Luke, allowing the Jedi a victory.