Ragnos vs. Revan

Originally posted by Apex512
Well when KOTOR 3 comes out, if Revan defeated the Ancient Sith which one would be Ragnos then I would drop this arguement, but for now if you lock Ragnos and Revan in a room Revan's tactics won't save him from the beating Ragnos would give him. The pictures of Ragnos just look like evil. When I think of Sith I think of Ragnos.

If Revan would beat Ragnos it would not surprise me, seeing as Ragnos has been dead for more then a thousands years. But I don't see that happening anyways..

What really happens is Revan goes out into uncharted space and is conquered by a roving band of Jawas!

No seriously, if the Vong are the main enemy in KOTOR III, I will be pissed. So let's just hope that Ragnos or his bastard step child is the badguy.

If the vong are the enemy I will burn Obsidian to the ground...

Or worse, hybrid Vong/Sith. I will cry as I napalm their headquarters

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I agree with Fishy on this one. While I don't have concrete evidence to say Ragnos is definately the best, I believe he is simply because of his reputation. Or to put it another way; if I had to bet on him and someone else in a fight, I'd bet on him. Why? Let me tell you...

Marka Ragnos ruled a Sith planet for a century and then some. With the exceptions of Freedan Nadd (Who took control of Onderon) and Sidious (who reigned for about thirty years over a nonSith Republic) no Sith has ruled for any reasonable amount of time, except to be overthrown or destroyed in an uprising. Now, Ragnos not only ruled for an amazing amount of time and died a NATURAL death in his own bed, unmolested by his scheming and hateful followers, but he did so over a totally Sith planet. The importance of this? Ragnos was SMART enough to play one side against the other to maintain his reign and keep his followers onplanet, he was STRONG enough to defend his reign, and he was POWERFUL enough that even on his deathbed, greats such as Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow would not so much as attempt to destroy him. They lived in fear, these followers whose Sith magics are the stuff of legends.

I'll finish this eventually.

I don't know, maybe that's enough for me. It is a conditional belief: If all that is true, then Ragnos must have been the baddest, biggest fish in the Sith pond. And that makes himthe darkside equivalent to NJO Luke, as far as I am concerned. Also, it speaks for Exar Kun's ability that he was picked by Ragnos himself to be the dark lord in what Ragnos predicted was the Golden Age of the Sith. (But on a side note, wasn't there an amulet that aided Kun's powers?)

Anyways, back on topic... A couple of you despise Ragnos and his reputation that has grown on this board. Mkay. Fine. You wish to disprove it? Please try. But just keep in mind- Just as one side can't say for certain he was stronger, the other can't prove he was weaker. We remain in stasis until some official source comes to break the tie-breaker.

First I would like to say well said to Darth Frobo for his first post.

Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged.

Now, he did die a natural death which I'll admit is impressive but it again goes with the fear thing, Ragnos would've undoubtedly had some supporters since even his funeral was a big deal so killing Ragnos on his death bed instead of waiting a few weeks would be stupid because that would anger at least some of the Sith into killing you. Now, on the other hand, letting him die naturally would cause some chaos amongst the Sith as to who is the next dark lord so it would be much easier for someone like Sadow to rise to power.

Next, Ragnos ruled only over Korriban while Lord Revan ruled over his entire Sith empire, which spanned most of the galaxy. From Korriban, to Malachor V and beyond. Next, Ragnos stayed on Korriban his whole life so his knowledge would be fairly limited as would his fighting ability to Sith alone.

Ragnos needs no knowledge he is the knowledge.

About that fear thing, can you imagine using a force technique on millions of force users at the same time? Nobody has ever done that except for Nihilus who just had a special power a power Ragnos did not have and if he did it would make Revan and everybody else crap their pants from just watching him. Effective but I doubt it is true.

And he would have probably had a few supporters around, but they would not mind if Ragnos died it was the way things were supposed to go. They knew that. Malak had plenty of suporters so did Revan, that didn't mean they wouldn't betray him in a second for somebody more powerful.

Yoda is not really comparable because Yoda is a Jedi, Jedi don't live to kill the other people and become the leaders.

first go read the any of the strongest sith lords ever threads and you'll find that exar kun revan and ragnos are the three to choose from but we can't really decide

second ragnos couldn't kill revan with eas and same goes for him it would be a good fight to see.

[QUOTE=4449999]Originally posted by Emperor Revan

(Forgive the JanusEdit, my friend)

First I would like to say well said to Darth Frobo for his first post.

Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. (YOda never had to fight for his position. His peers also didn't have the ability to wage war against the Republic and manipulate the stars themselves with their powers)

An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. (FDR was an elected representative who won through popularity in a country where people don't use dark magics, plot to overthrow everyone and everything, kill indiscriminately, and are true Sith)

Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged. (It's out there somewhere. It's been so long I've forgotten where, but I have seen it. I believe it may have been a KOTOR speech even.)

Now, he did die a natural death which I'll admit is impressive but it again goes with the fear thing, Ragnos would've undoubtedly had some supporters since even his funeral was a big deal so killing Ragnos on his death bed instead of waiting a few weeks would be stupid because that would anger at least some of the Sith into killing you. (There are no supporters among Sith. The only reason his funeral was even attended is because A- Sith are notorious for building resting places for their great leaders. I imagine they believe in some sort of resurrection in the future, and B- Ludo and Naga fought for the prominent position at the funeral, meaning it was just an extension of Sith vanity and ritual.)

Now, on the other hand, letting him die naturally would cause some chaos amongst the Sith as to who is the next dark lord so it would be much easier for someone like Sadow to rise to power. (True. Very true. And worth noting.)

Next, Ragnos ruled only over Korriban while Lord Revan ruled over his entire Sith empire, which spanned most of the galaxy. From Korriban, to Malachor V and beyond. Next, Ragnos stayed on Korriban his whole life so his knowledge would be fairly limited as would his fighting ability to Sith alone. (Ragnos specifically would not let his Sith expand beyond their sphere of influence. Actually, I don't believe they were limited just to Korriban. After all, where did the Sith library and academy on Malachor V come from? But back to the point, Ragnos knew the Republic would destroy a chaotic and factioned Sith Empire, and he deliberately kept his followers close to home.)

They need to make a game with Ragnos or something to give us more details.

Also, Naga Sadow had a private fortress on a moon, meaning the Sith holdings were NOT just restricted to Korriban.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged.

Ragnos was constantly challenged because he made all Sith focus their attacks on him since he didn't want them to attack the Republic. It is said that he killed tons of people in duels or simply assasinated them to keep control over the Sith Empire.
There has to be a reason why people like Sadow didn't even try to attack him and Sith didn't care much about political influence of a person - if the person is getting weak he will get killed. Simple rules.

Now, he did die a natural death which I'll admit is impressive but it again goes with the fear thing, Ragnos would've undoubtedly had some supporters since even his funeral was a big deal so killing Ragnos on his death bed instead of waiting a few weeks would be stupid because that would anger at least some of the Sith into killing you. Now, on the other hand, letting him die naturally would cause some chaos amongst the Sith as to who is the next dark lord so it would be much easier for someone like Sadow to rise to power.

Sadow had lots of time to kill Ragnos as well as other people had. He was Dark Lord for over a century (as far as I remember 150 years). So they could have killed him YEARS before he was lying on his death bed but still nobody did try at least not in the last years of his reign.

Next, Ragnos ruled only over Korriban while Lord Revan ruled over his entire Sith empire, which spanned most of the galaxy. From Korriban, to Malachor V and beyond. Next, Ragnos stayed on Korriban his whole life so his knowledge would be fairly limited as would his fighting ability to Sith alone.

That is simply wrong. The Sith Empire under Ragnos contained serveral worlds and Ragnos being the Dark Lord reigned over the entire Empire. That includes worlds like Malachor V, Ziost and so on. It was not as great as the republic but it is said to be much wealthier. And it was superior in terms of technological developments because of Sith alchemy and Sith magic. Remember that Exar Kun invented things that were able to blow up an entire star system when people in the republic needed 4,000 years longer to develop something that could destroy a single planet or a star system (Death Star and Sun Hammer).

Still all that things don't say anything about Ragnos sheer force powers. There must have been a reason why Sith Lords even feared his spirit. As you can see Exar Kun nearly killing 12 people when he was a spirit and Freedon Nadd did kill King Omnin (I hope that name was right ?) you might just guess what Ragnos could do as a spirit. And there is this statement from Kreia...she said that Ragnos posessed more power than people in KOTOR times can even dream about (that includes Revan).

She did say that, didn't she?

Nice homework there, Nai. You must be well-read as hell, I swear.

Yeah she did say that, but Kreia her word only means something for people here when it agrees with their own.

How many times haven't I seen people fighting against Kreia at one second and accepting her as if it was god himself giving an answer the next.

It's like that for people who can't let go. Notice that while I seem to change opinions a bit more than some people, it's always based on perception of the situation and the information I have to work with, not based on ignorance or bias.

I agree, once you have an opinion and you are proven wrong you should accept that. Only problem is you often think that the other side is wrong and should just shut up already because you already proved them wrong on everything, of course they think the same about you.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nice homework there, Nai. You must be well-read as hell, I swear.

Ah well...being the student I am (middle age history, german literature) I just spend tons of time reading through books. You get pretty fast with enough practice so I just read through every SW novel / comic available.

Same here, Nai... Only I'm a history major and philosophy minor. I've read all the Clone Wars Del Rey novels inside of two weeks, and then a few more novels outside of that timeframe. But those post ROTJ novels... *Shudder*... I mean, I have a copy of the 2000 year edition Star Wars Encyclopedia I picked up (Which I should have checked the damn date) and it's littered with some pretty stupid EU stuff, like Otherspace (RPG modules), the Vong (Totally removing the light versus darkside element of SW which, IMO is sacreligious) and Triclops, the three eyed son of Palpatine who spawned Ken, the Jedi prince. If you have to reread that last part because you started laughing, don't fret. I did too. So yeah, anything post-ROTJ I view with a skeptical eye.

/rant

And Fishy,you're right as usual. People rarely change, but trends do. If the KOTOR comics make Revan able to move Malachor V around with his pinky finger, we may have a revision around here.

We might but with the attitude against Revan I doubt it 😛 still we'll see... At least I have something against Luke now, because of my big old friend GL

Meh, I hate NJO Luke simple because, like I always say, the Dark Empire series and NJo series reads like bullshit fanfiction and totally ruins the atmosphere of the movies. It's a small wonder Lucas could give a shit less about Eu with works like I, Jedi and Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Those books are painful to read if you stop at the cover. And Lucas' main focus of the entire series (Read: light side versus dark) is undermined in these series and it just becomes Star Wars Trek and the Borg Wannabes Who Endanger All. It irks me on some level reserved for midnight wrong calls and slow drivers in the fast lane.