Nai Fohl proudly presents...

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Again, with the Skywalkers... Why is their potential supposively unlimited? Because in the PT Lucas introduced the idea that they were spawned of the Force itself. Does he ever say that that is the only case? Never. Meaning? Any one of those ancient Sith lords could be Chosen Ones of their time frames. It is a very real possibility and has yet to be refuted by Lucas. So there goes that idea.

I don't say that the Skywalkers pocess unlimited power. Unlimited power would mean you are the force, an avatar of it. They aren't. Even a full developed Anakin won't be.
But still Anakin is not a "natural" boy. He had at least no natural farther meaning that:
a) He was directly conceived by the midichlorians (Chosen one theory)
b) Plagueis came in manipulated the midichlorians to produce him.

Actualy that doesn't matter. Fact is that there is no way to get his amount of midichlorians in a "natural" way. What he can do with it is another question. Seeing what NJO Luke can do with his (lesser) potential I guess he can do a lot of things.

Second, the Sith during the Battle of Ruusan were led by Kaan, who was powerful enough to wipe out every living soul on Ruusan via the Force. I have yet to see Dooku, Maul, or Sidious attempt that one.

I have to correct you here. Kaan used a thought bomb (technology) to wipe out all people on Ruusan because he thought the Sith Lords would be able to withstand that thing - actualy they were not.

The point is Lucas never wanted Sidious to be that ridiculously overpowered. And I doubt he wanted Anakin or Luke to be either. Have you ever considered that?

Well...can you tell that for sure ?
And using that argument: Did Lucas want Revan, Ragnos, Kun, Sadow or anyone else to be more powerful than the people running around in the movies ? Did he want the ancient Sith to be more powerful than the "new" ones ? Actualy there is still more "logic" behind the EU novel characters (including NJO Luke) than there is behind the game characters or the comic characters. If you want to base it on Lucas (possible) oppinion or "normal" logic you can throw anything except the movies out of your window and say that the people in them can't be surpassed in power.

This is like Nai Fohl vs. KMC, well I'll try and help the cause.

Darksiders reach their maximum power quicker than lightsiders, therefore Yoda Dark would be a match for anybody you threw at him. Yoda can't really show us any great power as a lightsider because no lightside power is used for attack, unless you count force push. Being light is harder than being a darksider because you have to control your power and not let it consume you, and Yoda had a lot of power that he had to control. I think Yoda had to fight cautiously and watch his temper or he might lose control and kill everything in sight. In the movies it never seemed like Yoda was using his full power, at first I thought he did, but look at his fight with Dooku, afterwards he just got his walking stick and acted like nothing happened, he didn't seem tired at all, same with Sidious, he fell how many feet and just rolled over jumped in the speeder with Bail and acted like the fight didn't even start to exhaust him.

Anakin at full potential would probably be as strong as Exar or at least close. They both were good mechanics and they were both hot heads, and both were also thought to be super powerful by Sith Lords. Ragnos said Kun could revive the Sith empire but he was wrong and Sids thought Anakin would surpass them all and he was wrong.

Mace and Obi dark wouldn't help this fight to much I think they would be about the same as they were light.

This showdown all depends on how strong Darth Yoda and full potential Anakin are, which like I said Anakin probably as strong as Exar, and Yoda just because he has all the time to perfect his darkside power would be super strong, plus I don't think anybody has as much control over the force as Yoda. If Yoda wasn't so damn humble all the time he would of easily ruled as emperor during the movie times and nobody would be able to challenge his power just like Ragnos, only he would rule for 800 years as Dark Lord, and die a natural death too.(You could say Ragnos had tougher competition, but we don't know that for sure, although it seems likely we don't know for sure.) What Dooku said about Yoda is probably true.

For Yoda...just imagine somebody studying sith magic and dark side powers for 900 years. Urm...He pretty likely will be able to kill Naga Sadow.

The primary assumption here is that the Dark Side would make Yoda stronger than the Light Side Yoda.

I'm not so sure this is the case. It's been expressed that neither the Dark Side nor the Light Side is inherently stronger at the master level -- which Yoda clearly was.

It's a valiant attempt, but I still have to give this to the Sith. We can only assume at the powers individuals like a full potential Anakin or a Dark Side Yoda;

Originally posted by Illustrious
The primary assumption here is that the Dark Side would make Yoda stronger than the Light Side Yoda.

I'm not so sure this is the case. It's been expressed that neither the Dark Side nor the Light Side is inherently stronger at the master level -- which Yoda clearly was.

It's a valiant attempt, but I still have to give this to the Sith. We can only assume at the powers individuals like a full potential Anakin or a Dark Side Yoda;

Well...in terms of "combat" the Dark Side would surely make you better because all the "agressive" stuff (force choke, force lightning, life drain, force drain and so on) are DS powers while the overall useful stuff (reflexes, speed, jumps) are available for dark side and light side users.

And imagine that Dark Siders would have a different attitude in terms of "fighting".

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Anakin's entire body is of midi-clorians and at full potential he would excell way above what Yoda, Luke, Revan, Exar, and Marka Ragnos could imagine, so Revan and Exar can't even a hold a candle to Anakin at full potential, so just adding all those other guys...Revan's dead...Exar's dead...and Marka Ragnos is dead with ease.

Everyone else can just enjoy the nice show Anakin's going to put on when he beat all those guys to death. Pop-corn and soda thats the only weapon they would need.

Where is it ever stated that Anakin at full potential would be more powerful than anyone else?

Plagues, you just don't like Ragnos, do you? Now, I think Anakin might take him, and he could certainly take Kun and Revan, but none with impeccable ease. And even if according to most, Anakin is the most powerful, you don't know by how much. Anakin could concievably beat anyone in the SWU, but you make it sound like God, which he sure ain't.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...in terms of "combat" the Dark Side would surely make you better because all the "agressive" stuff (force choke, force lightning, life drain, force drain and so on) are DS powers while the overall useful stuff (reflexes, speed, jumps) are available for dark side and light side users.

And imagine that Dark Siders would have a different attitude in terms of "fighting".

If that were the case, the Sith would be able to overpower Jedi in practically every battle; evidence shows that is not the case. There is no superior combat method, be it defensive or offensive.

In a Jedi vs. Sith lightsaber duel, it comes down to which party is more well versed in the force; if the Sith's offence overpowers the Jedi defense, then the Sith is the winner; and if the Jedi defense can hold off the Sith attack and find an opening, then the Jedi is the winner;

In a battle with two offensive forces, it's whoever can get the first unblockable combination in. And in a battle with two defensive styles, it's whomever is more patient.

You are correct that the DS has the more offensive abilities, but a true master could take skills like lightning and counter that with force absorb, or use force protect against drain and so on. There is no intrinsically more powerful side.

The entire battle hinges on whether or not you think a Dark Side Yoda would absolutely destroy Sadow, and an Anakin at full potential can destroy Ragnos. Because you know Revan and Kun's abilities, and they would most likely beat Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

If you were to make inferences based on what we know about Sadow's and Ragnos' sword abilities, and assume they were formidable, I'd be willing to bet they'd beat Obi-Wan and Mace Windu. The whole battle hinges on whether or not you feel that the DS Yoda and Anakin at full potential can defeat their respective adversaries faster than Obi-Wan and Windu fall.

You could even argue that Obi-Wan would not keep his defensive style if he wasn't a Jedi, hence it would be possibly quicker to take him down.

There are too many user variables in this projection, it comes down to sheer opinion; there are no facts to back this up.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Plagues, you just don't like Ragnos, do you? Now, I think Anakin might take him, and he could certainly take Kun and Revan, but none with impeccable ease. And even if according to most, Anakin is the most powerful, you don't know by how much. Anakin could concievably beat anyone in the SWU, but you make it sound like God, which he sure ain't.

Windu says it all here. Plagues you are horribly biased against, Ragnos, Kun, Revan ect. I myself will admit that I am biased for Revan, but I try not let that effect my posts. Also we have no proof that, Anakin hypothetically at his full potential is stronger than, Revan, Ragnos, Kun ect. Maybe he is, but then again maybe he isn't. Just because he has 20,000 mids in his body does not mean anything. How do we know that Kun didn't have 40,000 mids or that Revan did not have 39,000 mids? We don't and therefore we have no proof that, Anakin at his full potential is stronger. Unless GL comes out and states that "Anakin had he reached his full potential would have been able to defeat any number of opponents of great power" my statement stands.

If he did and that would be used in an argument I would start using GL his word in any statement about NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Illustrious
If that were the case, the Sith would be able to overpower Jedi in practically every battle; evidence shows that is not the case. There is no superior combat method, be it defensive or offensive.

Erm...evidence shows people like Revan and Kun wasting Jedis as if they were nothing. In AotC you have Dooku simply putting Anakin out of combat with force lightning, in ROTS he takes out Obi-Wan with the force.

And obviously the "offensive" lightsaber forms seem to aid people better than the defensive ones. Watch all Niman users getting killed on Geonosis and Obi-Wan losing from nearly everyone.

In a Jedi vs. Sith lightsaber duel, it comes down to which party is more well versed in the force; if the Sith's offence overpowers the Jedi defense, then the Sith is the winner; and if the Jedi defense can hold off the Sith attack and find an opening, then the Jedi is the winner;

In a lightsaber duel, it does not only come down to which party is more well versed in the force:
- Anakin defeating Dooku (yeah I know...fake...)
- Mace defeating Sidious
- Sidious at least defeating Yoda

So people who aren't more versed in the force can win. And...I have to say...using that argument the NSO will pretty much destroy the ancient Sith if you take a look at how long those people would have studied the force / dark side powers.

You are correct that the DS has the more offensive abilities, but a true master could take skills like lightning and counter that with force absorb, or use force protect against drain and so on. There is no intrinsically more powerful side.

Well...there aren't many "true" masters seen. The only being that ever "absorbed" force lightning was Yoda.

The entire battle hinges on whether or not you think a Dark Side Yoda would absolutely destroy Sadow, and an Anakin at full potential can destroy Ragnos. Because you know Revan and Kun's abilities, and they would most likely beat Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

Well...that is the mistake here. Obi-Wan and Mace would NOT be Obi-Wan and Mace from the films. Imagine people that studied Sith and Jedi teachings (that is what Sidious did) for 35 (Obi-Wan) or 50 (Mace) years...

You could even argue that Obi-Wan would not keep his defensive style if he wasn't a Jedi, hence it would be possibly quicker to take him down.

Now that's basicaly an assumption. If Obi-Wan would use another form he could also become more deadly seing that form III is no realy designed to kill people.

@Fishy:

If he did and that would be used in an argument I would start using GL his word in any statement about NJO Luke.

And what would that be good for ?

Making NJO Luke completely non Canon meaning false and that it should be thrown away.

Originally posted by Fishy
Making NJO Luke completely non Canon meaning false and that it should be thrown away.

No. It won't. Saying he is 150 % Sidious (in potential) still leaves the questions:
a) "How powerful was Sidious ?"
b) "What can 1.5 times more potential do ?"

And sorry...with that statement you can make all people not in the films "non Canon" and throw them away (Including Revan, Kun, Ragnos, Sadow and so on...)

Actually no you can't. NJO Luke is cannon, but it obviously contradicts with GL his word. And how powerful was Sidious? I think its shown pretty clearly in the movies. Exar Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Nad, Revan, Ulic, Malak and lots of others are clearly more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. And Luke is far more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. You have read the NJO books yourself.

GL his word means nothing to me when its in a thread that has NJO Luke because it can be used against him too and I hate cheap tricks like that. But when somebody else uses it, I will use it too just becuase I can 😛

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually no you can't. NJO Luke is cannon, but it obviously contradicts with GL his word. And how powerful was Sidious? I think its shown pretty clearly in the movies. Exar Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Nad, Revan, Ulic, Malak and lots of others are clearly more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. And Luke is far more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. You have read the NJO books yourself.

Lucas also said that Anakin fully developed would only be twice as powerful as Sidious and he would be the most powerful force user ever.

Now...with that statement you can also say that nearly every character not in the movies contradicts GL his word. Or else you would have to say that Sidious is clearly more powerful than he seems to be in the movies.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now that's basicaly an assumption. If Obi-Wan would use another form he could also become more deadly seing that form III is no realy designed to kill people.

God your annoying. You always critize people for assuming, when you assume the most.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Lucas also said that Anakin fully developed would only be twice as powerful as Sidious and he would be the most powerful force user ever.

Now...with that statement you can also say that nearly every character not in the movies contradicts GL his word. Or else you would have to say that Sidious is clearly more powerful than he seems to be in the movies.

Just like NJO Luke, and all those other people could still be 99.9% Anakin when NJO Luke could not be.

Assumptions, assumptions. hard to avoid but the opposition is always quick to point them out. Look, the biggest assumptions here include this:

- Yoda having the temperment to be a dark sider. For all we know, Lucas made Yoda and his kin guardians of the Jedi Order and the Force, and they are not easily if at all corrupted due to what they are. That in itself is an assumption, but so is the idea that he CAN be turned.

- Anything about Anakin's power and Luke's power is assumption, since we will never see it in full swing and Lucas gives us vague figures at best. And besides, higher numbers has never meant absolute domination. That is the worst assumption of all.

- And lastly, there is the assumption that we would even have an idea what any of this Jedi would be like if they were max potential dark side. They wouldn't be anything we know. Being the shade of an essentially good person isn't like changing hairstyles: Darksiders would think, act, and kill fundamentally different. That's not an assumption, that's common sense. If Hitler was accepted into art school and didn't hate jews, he would be fundamentally different.

Erm...evidence shows people like Revan and Kun wasting Jedis as if they were nothing. In AotC you have Dooku simply putting Anakin out of combat with force lightning, in ROTS he takes out Obi-Wan with the force.

And obviously the "offensive" lightsaber forms seem to aid people better than the defensive ones. Watch all Niman users getting killed on Geonosis and Obi-Wan losing from nearly everyone.

These examples are all flawed.

Revan was already one of the most powerful Jedi before he fell to the dark side; and in his lightside ending, he would still be considered the most powerful of his time.

Exar was not your typical Sith, he was a prodigious Jedi first, and he fell to the Dark Side. He fought to a draw with a Jedi Master once, and was stopped once by his old master, before he slew him the second time he fought. So even so, he was not without his limitations; even during his time, he wasn't shown to be invincible.

Count Dooku was a revered JEDI MASTER before he fell to the dark side; he would already be an elite warrior that only a few could match before he even started down the dark side road.

You gave me 3 examples of individuals of extreme power regardless of whether or not they were Sith/DS or Jedi/LS. Let's all apply prodigies towards the norm. By that example, every Jedi would be like Yoda, and would only lose given stacked circumstances.

Originally posted by Fishy
In that case, well Obi and Mace are still weak links..

It depends on how powerful Anakin would really be compared to the rest. I know for sure that Revan would take Obi in less then a minute and that with Exar he would take Mace fast too.

But would Anakin be so powerful he could defeat them all? I very much doubt it, so I still give it to the orginal four, but your team is the only that stands a chance. Of course its complete fiction

Mace is not a weak link, he is up there with yoda. You are a disgrace to the Korunni. Anyway, mace would definetly die, but he is not a weak link, and would certainly give at least on of the a good fight. Obi wan has very good defense, so i dont know how long he would last, maybe long enough till someone aids him, if not he dies and windu is ganged up on, then the rest are defeated.