Originally posted by Darth_Janus
PVS is hellbent on Christian bashing
thats my point. i called your whole frikin arguement before it happened.
you compared homosexuality to raping an animal, then go on to say freedom of speech should be limited to what you find non offensive, which i find to be very anti american. and then you go on to typically nail yourself to the cross,
and call it "christian bashing" 🙄
i saw this line coming from you the moment you started posting. am i psychic? or just able to observe repetition. oh but i should pretend i dont notice, so that i wont seem like a "christian basher". because i hate christians right? REAL christians like you, not hell-bound blasphemous heathens like myself.
i know what you think because your viewpoint is borrowed and regurgitated over and over, and thus i feel like we've argued countless times before. only this time you dont have the rocks to say what you really mean. that i cant respect.
thats all i have to say on this.
I think the question of morality v. reality is moot. This thread and what is has turned into is pretty much the norm here in the states. Every time someone mentions the word gay, it's met with a long descent into shit.
Everyone has their own opinion on the subjectof homosexuality. Anyone who supports "gay rights"(excuse my use of the term gay rights, as I don't believe gay people should have any special rights)is viewed as moraly irresponsible. Those who oppose gay rights immeadiately label them as extremists who want to help bring about the end of modern American society.
The only real issue here is god. Darth_Janus, if you remove your god from the equation, then what higher moral ground can you stand on?
Originally posted by PVS
thats my point. i called your whole frikin arguement before it happened.
you compared homosexuality to raping an animal, then go on to say freedom of speech should be limited to what you find non offensive, which i find to be very anti american. and then you go on to typically nail yourself to the cross,
and call it "christian bashing" 🙄
i saw this line coming from you the moment you started posting. am i psychic? or just able to observe repetition. oh but i should pretend i dont notice, so that i wont seem like a "christian basher". because i hate christians right? REAL christians like you, not hell-bound blasphemous heathens like myself.i know what you think because your viewpoint is borrowed and regurgitated over and over, and thus i feel like we've argued countless times before. only this time you dont have the rocks to say what you really mean. that i cant respect.
thats all i have to say on this.
It wasn't a direct comparison and it was a horrible one, I've already admitted as such. Was that grounds for ignoring everything else I said? Or are you just incapabe of a rational retort and this is all you have?
Second, I said (and I've been saying) that the issue here is with the license plate, that anything ranging from gayrok to raidersrulez shouldn't be allowed. But you just keep missing that. And you keep saying that "freedom of speech should be limited to what I find offensive". Anyone here care to point out where specifically I said this, because I don't remember it at all. PVS, I realize it's dark in that lonely basement at your mother's and the WOW servers are down so you've come in here to tear apart all opposition and twist things so that everyone else is wrong and you're right (without adding a single solid piece of logic, I might add) but please... Give it a rest. You are not the last line of defense for freedom of expression or gay rights, even if you act like it.
And if you're psychic, you should be able to see my point for what it is and not drag up every little thing that can be twisted to your quasi-advantage like you've been doing.
The only repetition we see here is you attacking the opposition without giving anything substantial in return.
But of course, if you don't like how some of us actually argue (using some kind of brainpower, all that...) You could always go to China, right?
Cap't Fantastic, in regards to your question, you have to define god first. And if god as Christian know him doesn't exist, there is something I listen to in lieu anyways, and it's moral law founded -outside- of holy text. You don't have to know a single word in the bible nor believe in god to be a good person, and anyone who says otherwise has a very narrow mind on the issue. My final justification for anything should never be "god's will" or anything like that. It should be that it satisfies the rational mind and the whole idea makes sense from whereever I approach it.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Cap't Fantastic, in regards to your question, you have to define god first. And if god as Christian know him doesn't exist, there is something I listen to in lieu anyways, and it's moral law founded -outside- of holy text. You don't have to know a single word in the bible nor believe in god to be a good person, and anyone who says otherwise has a very narrow mind on the issue. My final justification for anything should never be "god's will" or anything like that. It should be that it satisfies the rational mind and the whole idea makes sense from whereever I approach it.
DJ-
First off, I don't need to define your own god to you.
Secondly, from where does your hatred/mistrust/disgust/issue with homosexuality come, if not from your faith?
The reason I attribute your beliefs with your religion is easy to figure out. Anyone who condemns homosexuality simply because they don't believe thattheir faith has told them to, isn't playing with a full hand. If you want to ascribe those feelings to "morality", then you have to go one step further and figure out from where your sense of morality came. If the bible hadn't been misinterpreted for the last 2 thousand years, from where did your sense of morality originate?
It's simply impossible to espouse christian rhetoric and then expect anyone to believe that your religion has no effect on your moral view.
Originally posted by Darth_Janusnot rational? why, because you said so? and as for your 'horrible comparrison', which was OBVIOUSLY a mistake 🙄 . the mistake being that you spoke what was really on your mind. dont take back what you see as the truth and replace it with a lie to make me happy. that commands zero respect.
It wasn't a direct comparison and it was a horrible one, I've already admitted as such. Was that grounds for ignoring everything else I said? Or are you just incapabe of a rational retort and this is all you have?
Originally posted by Darth_Janusoooooops...there goes your holy high ground 😂 i thought you were so calm and piouse, and above insults...oh well.
Second, I said (and I've been saying) that the issue here is with the license plate, that anything ranging from gayrok to raidersrulez shouldn't be allowed. But you just keep missing that. And you keep saying that "freedom of speech should be limited to what I find offensive". Anyone here care to point out where specifically I said this, because I don't remember it at all. PVS, I realize it's dark in that lonely basement at your mother's and the WOW servers are down so you've come in here to tear apart all opposition and twist things so that everyone else is wrong and you're right (without adding a single solid piece of logic, I might add) but please... Give it a rest. You are not the last line of defense for freedom of expression or gay rights, even if you act like it.
switching your arguement in the middle and saying "i just dont like personalised license plates" is just sooooooooooooo frikin weak and a complete waste of time. once you get called on your own ignorance you quickly retreat and change your stand, then go on to pretend that was your stand all along. it went from:
-gays can be offensive to some, so nobody should have to see those plates
to
-i just dont like personalised plates
how positively weak! 😱
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And if you're psychic, you should be able to see my point for what it is and not drag up every little thing that can be twisted to your quasi-advantage like you've been doing.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
But of course, if you don't like how some of us actually argue (using some kind of brainpower, all that...) You could always go to China, right?
and you talk to me about warped logic? ok, so im a lover a freedom and liberty, a staunch supporter of the freedom for both of us to offend eachother....so i should move to china because you're being an ass? you totally lost me there. 🙄
Re: ‘gaysrok’
Originally posted by Tex
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8734642/Can you believe that in 2005, a state actually fought, and may continue to fight, the removal of a 'GAYSROK' license plate?
Seeing as the statement is "offensive" and "indecent".
It's sickening.
A license plate that represents acceptance, understanding and compassion is deemed "distasteful" by the heavily Republican/Mormon Utah government.The only distasteful, indecent and offensive thing I see is the outrageous prejudice and hate spewed by the Utah government.
They are such hateful and close minded people that would forcefully prevent you from expressing beliefs they deem "obscene". In other words, compassion, respect, understanding and equality have no place in Utah.
Repulsive!
Utah has to many mosquitos.. horrible place.. never want to go back.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
DJ-First off, I don't need to define your own god to you.
Secondly, from where does your hatred/mistrust/disgust/issue with homosexuality come, if not from your faith?
The reason I attribute your beliefs with your religion is easy to figure out. Anyone who condemns homosexuality simply because they don't believe thattheir faith has told them to, isn't playing with a full hand. If you want to ascribe those feelings to "morality", then you have to go one step further and figure out from where your sense of morality came. If the bible hadn't been misinterpreted for the last 2 thousand years, from where did your sense of morality originate?
It's simply impossible to espouse christian rhetoric and then expect anyone to believe that your religion has no effect on your moral view.
I'm not sure I'm following you here... Everyone keeps saying "my religion". Why is it neccessary to have any kind of thought in religion? Does religion pretty much dictate what one believes on all levels? CF, for the last damn time... I'm not attacking homosexuality on religious grounds. But thanks for assuming so. Really. I must be a lot more confusing to read than I can imagine, because all it ever comes down to in this argue is either "my religion" or "my mistake" or "my views/hatred/disgust/etc." The only thing I'm seeing here is everyone attacking one another and no one trying on the topic at hand. PVS, well... I kind of expect that from him at this point. I think he rather enjoys getting people riled up.
But you're going off on a completely different direction. This -isn't- about my feelings. If you want to open up a topic on my stance, feel free. But the subject here is the ruling behind the Utah license plate, and regardless of anyone's viewpoint I think it's a failure on behalf of the government to maintain neutrality, considering those are state-issued license plates and no one needs to express themselves, no matter what they are trying to say or show, on a license plate that's purpose is identification and little else.
Here, let me type up everyone's response before hand, so you guys can just quote me and have already replied...
PVS: "So like, I saw this one thing in your whole essay0esque post and I totally disagreed with it and I totally don't like you and I totally think you're some Christian in disguise, out to make the whole world get up early on Sundays. So anyways, I'm just gonna poke and jab but I can't touch on any issues really, because my main focus here is ripping on you."
Capt'n Fantastic: "Let's talk about you and your stance/feelings/religion. What's your moral grounding for your stance on homosexuals. Let's totally disregard the topic at hand."
Alcoholicpoet: "What, you mean my comment on stalking had NOTHING to do with what you said. No way. Freedom of speech."
Originally posted by FeceMan
There is a difference between a viewpoint and observing something objectively and stating the facts, Syren. You are demonstrating the latter.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, Syren, thanks for recognizing that I'm trying to (or have already) gotten a point across.
😊
I'm so glad I didn't get a bashing for sticking my nose in...
PVS, I meant no harm, but I agree with DJ and FeceMan, you seriously need to learn the difference between discussing things in a mature manner and beating someone down for having an opinion which differs from your own 😬
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
No, actually I'm rather amused by you and your approach to this whole thing, but I'm not riled. Rather bored, really. You don't provide a good debate.
well, you sure managed to type some lengthy bodies of text against me...for someone who is so bored and uninterested....unless you just like to revel in the mundane? 😗
and there was no debate to begin with. you began the debate by cautiously speaking what you really believe, which was ignorant. once i called you on that, you backpeddled like the wind. YOU brought up the issue of gay being offensive and thus, not worthy of a license plate....not me. YOU were the one who compared it to rape and bestiality...not me. YOU were the one who later dodged everything you said previous, rendering it all worthless....not me. 😗 😇
a bad comparrison? no, you mean a bad truth. one which you believe but that you dont want others to know you believe. by that you are being very dishonest. i think a debate such as this depends heavily on honesty.
or else its just "do you think personalised plates are good/bad"
and that it isn't
Uh huh. Well, I'm not going to be drawn into anything more with you in particular. I have my reasoning behind what I posted, and I didn't put it into proper perspective, so it seems like just some totally off-the-wall hate spiel, but whatever. Like you've said yourself... I won't go to jail and neither would you. But if you are so keen on freedom of speech and expression, why are you even concerned with my viewpoint? Why not instead just look past it and try and focus on my points about the topic at hand?
And FYI, I am quite bored. Work's slow right now.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Uh huh. Well, I'm not going to be drawn into anything more with you in particular. I have my reasoning behind what I posted, and I didn't put it into proper perspective, so it seems like just some totally off-the-wall hate spiel, but whatever. Like you've said yourself... I won't go to jail and neither would you. But if you are so keen on freedom of speech and expression, why are you even concerned with my viewpoint? Why not instead just look past it and try and focus on my points about the topic at hand?
wow, ill just call you the king of poor leaps of logic.
so because i believe that no opinion should be outlawed, then i must blindly accept every opinion? how the hell did you make that connection?
your dogma DOES offend me and i think that offense should be spoken, but i dont want to live in a country where its against the law for you to be ignorant.
freedom to say anything you wish is equally matched by the freedom of someone else to call you a jackass. thats called 'checks and balances'
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And FYI, I am quite bored. Work's slow right now.
im sure work is slow, as it is for me as well. but surely there is more to do on the internet or even KMC than argue with boring lil old me? 🤣 poor excuse...try again
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
"Capt'n Fantastic: "Let's talk about you and your stance/feelings/religion. What's your moral grounding for your stance on homosexuals. Let's totally disregard the topic at hand."
The first part of your assumption stands. I'm not really interested in you, personally, but feel free to explain why the descision to allow the plate is contributing to the decline of morality in America. And why homosexuality is wrong in your "beyond christianity and it's god" moral view.
You feel that the government should not become involved in the process, that the government should not choose one side over the other. But, that's the job of the government. So, if I understand, you think that the government shouldn't even allow personalized liscense plates. To make that descision, then the government would be choosing not to get involved because that's the easiest way out of having to deal with the hassle. But, again...that's the governments job in a "free" society. That's kind of like the government choosing it's own side.
The government should be fair and equal, free from any biased point of view..be that pro-gay or pro-christian. But, that's the point of the thread. There's a court somewhere trying to prevent OR allow a liscense plate that says GAYSROK. The question of a NEED for a special commitee to decide if the plate was appropriate is under fire here. From where does this need arise? From people espousing god over government, in a strictly religious part of the country...where god IS above the government in most respects.
Originally posted by Syren
If he's so keen on freedom of speech, why is there even an issue? Surely a freedom of speech lover would allow everyone their personal point of view without getting wound up?
no, to love the concept of free speech is to love the idea that nobody can be arrested and fined/jailed for speaking their minds. by your conclusion, i should be overcome with the need to run to the nearest KKK rally and give everyone a big hug and a kiss, because i so love free speech.