Originally posted by Great Vengeance
*sigh* Vader could probably beat mace by himself, adding maul is overkill.
Wow, this is ridiculously unfounded. Besides the fact that you are a Vader/Sidious fan, what rationalization do you have for Darh Vader by himself being able to beat Mace? Seriously... It's not even possible.
Let me get this across better.
FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.
FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.
FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.
FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.
FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.
CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow, this is ridiculously unfounded. Besides the fact that you are a Vader/Sidious fan, what rationalization do you have for Darh Vader by himself being able to beat Mace? Seriously... It's not even possible.
Well my analysis of this fight is ROTJ vader>ROTS vader(Ive explained this many times) and you know ROTS vader would atleast give mace a good fight. Im not saying vader would for sure beat mace it would be close but in this case maul is added into the equation so sith win.
I can't say I agree. ROTS Vader can't rightly be called a match for Obi-Wan, and Mace is far greater than Obi-Wan. Mace had Sidious at his mercy, whereas Obi-Wan was not even good enough in Yoda's eyes to challange the Sith lord. And ROTJ Vader is not better than his younger counterpart in anything but perhaps artificial strength and wisdom, and that won't be enough to keep Mace from schooling his ass. And Maul is not enough to tip the scales against the Jedi master.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Let me get this across better.FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.
FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.
FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.
FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.
FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.
CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?
2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.
3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast
4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.
5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Let me get this across better.FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.
FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.
FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.
FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.
FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.
CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.
He stole most of the words right out of my mouth.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.
3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast
4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.
5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.
1.)Shoot youself.
2.)Knowledge? What force grip and force throw....He is not making up for anything, he becomes weaker ands slower. Watch the movies.
3.)At least you agree with something.
4.)Umm, was GG fast in his fights? no! he was just quick with his robo arms but vader couldent do that, so he still remains slow.
5.)Maul landed the cheap foce push to stop Obi wans fury, cuz Mual couldent hold on with one lightsaber. And he would possibly be killed. So that push was his only chance. And Maul saw obi wan flip over him so he could have countered it.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
1.)Shoot youself.2.)Knowledge? What force grip and force throw....He is not making up for anything, he becomes weaker ands slower. Watch the movies.
3.)At least you agree with something.
4.)Umm, was GG fast in his fights? no! he was just quick with his robo arms but vader couldent do that, so he still remains slow.
5.)Maul landed the cheap foce push to stop Obi wans fury, cuz Mual couldent hold on with one lightsaber. And he would possibly be killed. So that push was his only chance. And Maul saw obi wan flip over him so he could have countered it.
😆
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Mace had Sidious at his mercy.
Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.
1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.
2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.
3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...
4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious? 😆
As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?
Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.
Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.
Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.
3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast
4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.
5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.
1. Mace was a Jedi master when Obi-Wan was still a padawan. Mace utilized a form that was aggressive and capable of destroying other duellist easier than Soresu's slow approach. Mace Windu was second on the council and was revered for his skill and ability. I thought it was quite obvious. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
2) What darkside knowledge? Where does he demonstrate ability beyond Mace in the OT?
3)Hence "Vaapad".
4)Speculation and a poor excuse for Vader's lack of powers. This was already debated and decided long before you or I came to this forum.
5) Watch the fight again.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.
2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.
3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...
4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious? 😆
As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?
Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.
Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.
❌ ❌ ❌
You SADLY underestimate Windu.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.
3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast
4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.
5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.
1) What Janus said, but one more thing. Mace was on the Council BEFORE Obi-Wan was even chosen to be a Padawan. Only just, but there you have it.
2) I somewhat agree. I think the OT Vader is more powerful in raw power and Force Technique, but look how much that helped him against Luke. I'd say Vader would fall to his pre-suit self.
3) ✅ And as Janus would say "Black Jedi have rhythm."
4) True, but that doesn't stop Luke from being fairly badass in his own right.
5) Obi had Maul on his back. Literally. He chopped his saber in half. He had him retreating at the beginning and at a standstill for the duration of the their fight. Face it dude, Obi's badass. And that was no cheap shot. Obi was slick. And Maul was retarded. BUt that was only Padawan Obi. Look how good he gets by ROTS. And Mace would beat him down even then. Mace is considered Dooku's equal by Yoda. Dooku chucked Obi into a wall with impetuous ease.
And Janus, when you said Yoda didn't even see Obi as worth challenging Sidious. . . true, but in a bashing way. Yoda knew that Obi would most likely fall in the process, and that it would be a waste to have Yoda himself take Anakin when Obi was there. Same as yours, just nicer to the ninja. And now, let's find someone other than Great Vengeance to bash.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.
2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.
3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...
4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious? 😆
As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?
Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.
Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.
1) Where's the evidence that says Dooku was weaker? Apprentice<Master is not always the case... And besides, Dooku was a Makashi master, who practiced a saber fighting designed for saber-to-saber combat. By all accounts, Sidious' style is Ataru or Niman on crack.
2) I know you don't want to admit this because Sidious and Vader are your favorite characters, but Yoda was clearly more than a match for Sidious, and it took Sidious fighting from the higher ground and a rather fortunate move that broke Yoda's lightsaber and sent him falling too far to come back up. But in a more fair enivonment, Yoda would probably win. Now, if Sidious had sabered Yoda, even a wound, I would say your argument warrants consideration... but really, it's just ridiculous. That's like saying I shot an archer from atop a guard tower and we're equal.
3) Obviously you took this out of context... Mace was trying not to murder his former apprentice, and she was drawing on the darkside, twisting Vaapad and taking the advantage. Note that Luke draws on the darkside and beats down Vader in ROTJ. Doing so can give you a temporary boost. But depa>Mace is as stupid an argument as ever been on this board.
4) Who the hell is this and why is this the first time I've heard of him?
5) The prophecy is a plot element. It doesn't apply in the versus thread. Please take yourself over to the episode 1-6 forums if you feel the need to rely on the prophecy. And Skywalker means ****all here, since the prophecy and all this other crap spewed forth by Skywalker fans never holds up to rational scrutinisation.
6) As much as I hate to call on an EU source in an EU subforum, the Episode III book is like the Sidious/Vader fanboy's bible. It discredits Mace, makes Anakina and Sidious look like god, and ever so carefully adds crap to the movies without contradicting them. However, since there wasn't any mention of this bullshit in-movie, it goes one of two ways: either Mace won as we all saw; or you buy the book, and Mace was allowed to win. Either way, Sidious is on a whole nother level compared to mecha-Vader, so the argument is kinda moot in this case.
7) I have two glasses. Both are 805 full. One's full of gasoline, the other water. Which one is gonna hurt you more? Please, let's drop the 80% bullshit. Vader is slow, his Force mastery is weak, and he cannot contend with a Jedi master like Mace windu. You have no evidence to support that he can, and all you're doing is running around in circles...
I read it. But it is very likely that Mace is 80% of Sidious. Perhaps slightly more. If Yoda was only just above Sidious, or his equal, I don't think MAce could have been 20% weaker. And don't forget, this is Windu. He'll do what's necessary to win, even if that means killing. ALl he needs to do is take Maul out ofr a moment, and then take some time to shatter Vader's suit. With either blade or Force. And read my post for Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) What Janus said, but one more thing. Mace was on the Council BEFORE Obi-Wan was even chosen to be a Padawan. Only just, but there you have it.2) I somewhat agree. I think the OT Vader is more powerful in raw power and Force Technique, but look how much that helped him against Luke. I'd say Vader would fall to his pre-suit self.
3) ✅ And as Janus would say "Black Jedi have rhythm."
4) True, but that doesn't stop Luke from being fairly badass in his own right.
5) Obi had Maul on his back. Literally. He chopped his saber in half. He had him retreating at the beginning and at a standstill for the duration of the their fight. Face it dude, Obi's badass. And that was no cheap shot. Obi was slick. And Maul was retarded. BUt that was only Padawan Obi. Look how good he gets by ROTS. And Mace would beat him down even then. Mace is considered Dooku's equal by Yoda. Dooku chucked Obi into a wall with impetuous ease.
And Janus, when you said Yoda didn't even see Obi as worth challenging Sidious. . . true, but in a bashing way. Yoda knew that Obi would most likely fall in the process, and that it would be a waste to have Yoda himself take Anakin when Obi was there. Same as yours, just nicer to the ninja. And now, let's find someone other than Great Vengeance to bash.
1. Well yeah Im not saying mace isnt stronger than obi but I dont thinks hes THAT much stronger.
2.To lose to luke isnt anything to be ashamed of.
3.I cant argue this.
4.Yes luke is a badass.
5.Obi got maul on his back for like 4 secs but when maul decided to actually fight he knocked obi into the reactor shaft. And maul could of easily followed up and used a force push to knock obi all the way down but like I said maul was arrogant, or maybe it was the trademark obi luck.