Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What a LotR supporter would have to counter is that swords are not lightsaber proof!I rest my case.
Did you read the OP? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but they all get lighsabers (or was it that they all get swords...either way it's fair).
With force, SW pwn except for maybe Gandalf/Sauruman.
Without force, some go to SW and others go to LOTR.
Even with Gandalf/Saruman, LOTR does lose. Galen Marek destroyed a skyhook and redirected a Star Destroyer. We all know how powerful Galen was, but Gandalf or Saruman fighting Sidious? Even without his lightsaber, Sidious still would emerge victorious. How would either Gandalf or Saruman react to being Force choked? No amount of magic can break that telekenetic hold. As to Sidious's Force lightning - neither wizard has the ability to hold back that type of attack like Yoda did much less survive. A Force push might even break their back.
Did you read the OP?
Gandalf or Saruman react to being Force choked?
Um... by hitting Sidious back? Both have shown proficiency in TK and Gandalf is much more versatile: 'I once knew every spell in every tongue under the sun' (or some such). Saruman more so: he was their loremaster. He was the guy that the people with all the answers went to when they didn't know the answers. Istari win.
That's always the answer: istari win.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Even with Gandalf/Saruman, LOTR does lose. Galen Marek destroyed a skyhook and redirected a Star Destroyer. We all know how powerful Galen was, but Gandalf or Saruman fighting Sidious? Even without his lightsaber, Sidious still would emerge victorious. How would either Gandalf or Saruman react to being Force choked? No amount of magic can break that telekenetic hold. As to Sidious's Force lightning - neither wizard has the ability to hold back that type of attack like Yoda did much less survive. A Force push might even break their back.
Agreed!
Gandalf beat a weakened and bodiless Sauron with the help of the council of the white (Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond and others). So at best he has around a fifth of a cripple Saurons power, this does not however translate into combat power. Sidious was able to completely outclass 'Stardestroyer' Marek and if your talking about techniques knows them all. Considering the best combat feat Gandalf has if setting a few pine-cones on fire I'm sticking with Sidious.
Gandalf beat a weakened and bodiless Sauron with the help of the council of the white (Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond and others).
Did I miss something? The direct clash of strength happened after his return from the Balrog while he was alone. The Necromancer incident was an entirely different person (g. the Grey).
This is Gandalf in his agelic form
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Gandalf will be able to win if:It's just dueling to force/magic
No force
This is Gandalf in his agelic formWith the force however, Sidious PROBABLY would win.
WTF?
Let me make this clear: Gandalf is simply an "angelic" being, that just has chosen to incarnate into a human form to visit Middle Earth (or was commanded to do so by the Gods in the LotR realm). Gandalf almost never shows his power - in fact he uses them as a last resort only (even if it comes to lighting a fire).
This changes once he becomes Gandalf the White. He still isn't allowed to interfere in the affairs of Middle Earth directly with all his might (this is what the Gods punished Saruman for, enabling Gandalf to take the power of the former leader of the Ishtari away). But just think of the demonstrations of his power:
When revealing himself to Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas as Gandalf the White (TTT) he disarms Aragorn (by heating his sword up), deflects an arrow from Legolas into the sky and stuns Gimli so that the dwarf isn't able to move - this all simultaneously. He blinds an entire army of Orcs in front of Helm's Deep (TTT) and by the time of RotK he has become invulnerable to any weapon and even magic attacks.
If Saruman shares that kind of powers in his top shape, I don't see how any force user would be able to win against them. They simply can't be harmed and are pretty well able to cause a lot of harm themselves.
Originally posted by Borbarad
WTF?
Let me make this clear: Gandalf is simply an "angelic" being, that just has chosen to incarnate into a human form to visit Middle Earth (or was commanded to do so by the Gods in the LotR realm). Gandalf almost never shows his power - in fact he uses them as a last resort only (even if it comes to lighting a fire).This changes once he becomes Gandalf the White. He still isn't allowed to interfere in the affairs of Middle Earth directly with all his might (this is what the Gods punished Saruman for, enabling Gandalf to take the power of the former leader of the Ishtari away). But just think of the demonstrations of his power:
When revealing himself to Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas as Gandalf the White (TTT) he disarms Aragorn (by heating his sword up), deflects an arrow from Legolas into the sky and stuns Gimli so that the dwarf isn't able to move - this all simultaneously. He blinds an entire army of Orcs in front of Helm's Deep (TTT) and by the time of RotK he has become invulnerable to any weapon and even magic attacks.
If Saruman shares that kind of powers in his top shape, I don't see how any force user would be able to win against them. They simply can't be harmed and are pretty well able to cause a lot of harm themselves.
WTF??? Blinding an entire army? INVULNERABLE to any weapon/magic? Where does it say that??? If so, then why doesn't he himself just walk up to the dark tower and personally destroy Sauron? He's invulnerable!
If so, then why doesn't he himself just walk up to the dark tower and personally destroy Sauron?
When the Miar/Valar interfere directly against Sauron/Morgoth the land itself is cast down. They have collateral damage. Hence the limitation: none of the Istari are allowed to combat Sauron directly nor can they combat him through open military conquest- they must encourage the natives of ME to fight, help them fight, enable them to fight. They cannot rule directly over them (hence Saruman's fall) because that just makes another Sauron.
he disarms Aragorn (by heating his sword up)
Sidious disintergrated a lightsaber.
deflects an arrow from Legolas into the sky
Sidious deflects lazer's.
stuns Gimli so that the dwarf isn't able to move
Sidious stunned Galen Marek
He blinds an entire army of Orcs in front of Helm's Deep (TTT)
That was the sun. And they weren't blind.
and by the time of RotK he has become invulnerable to any weapon and even magic attacks.
A lie.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
WTF??? Blinding an entire army? INVULNERABLE to any weapon/magic? Where does it say that??? If so, then why doesn't he himself just walk up to the dark tower and personally destroy Sauron? He's invulnerable!
You should really go and check the books (LotR trilogy + Simarillion). The last time they sent Maiar into battle, they ravaged a nice part of the world (literally setting it aflame) in order to capture Melkor/Morgoth - who was powerful enough to drain oceans, knocks mountains down and corrupt everything that was created.
And Gandalf, as Red Nemesis has pointed out, isn't allowed to interfere too much with the realm of ME. Saruman is punished for doing that. If you read the books, you will see that Gandalf doesn't even use his abilities when it comes to light a fire (only as last resort), because of his (self-)restrictions. So walking right into Mordor to kill Sauron is something that he wouldn't do. And, technically, he wouldn't be able to do the job because to kill Sauron, you would need to throw the ring into Mt. Doom.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You should really go and check the books (LotR trilogy + Simarillion). The last time they sent Maiar into battle, they ravaged a nice part of the world (literally setting it aflame) in order to capture Melkor/Morgoth - who was powerful enough to drain oceans, knocks mountains down and corrupt everything that was created.And Gandalf, as Red Nemesis has pointed out, isn't allowed to interfere too much with the realm of ME. Saruman is punished for doing that. If you read the books, you will see that Gandalf doesn't even use his abilities when it comes to light a fire (only as last resort), because of his (self-)restrictions. So walking right into Mordor to kill Sauron is something that he wouldn't do. And, technically, he wouldn't be able to do the job because to kill Sauron, you would need to throw the ring into Mt. Doom.
So you really think that he's INVULNERABLE to everything? Or is that a joke? Because otherwise in the siege of Minias Tirith he could just stand in the gateway and nobody could get past him.
He's not invulnerable, it's not impossible to kill Gandalf. Just rather difficult. The Istari are still in mortal form, so like Sauron's was, even if their physical form is destroyed, their spirit remains.
In a direct no-hold bar contest, the powers of people like Sidious with his planet-ravaging ability, Nihillus' drain, and just the sheer magnitude of all these Force-powers will only be defeated by Middle Earth's God, Eru. Short of divine intervention on the highest of levels, even the Valar and Maiar can't unleash the destruction that Force-storm and Mega-Drain can.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So you really think that he's INVULNERABLE to everything? Or is that a joke? Because otherwise in the siege of Minias Tirith he could just stand in the gateway and nobody could get past him.
In the book, this is precisely what happens. The army of Mordor destroys the gates of Minas Tirith, the Witchking rides through the gate and Gandalf stands there and, basically, tells him to back off. The next thing that happens is Rohan entering the battle which, as we all know, leads to the death of the Witchking. That's the reason why I suggested to have a look into the books.
And please, Lucien. Morgoth (who is a Valar) has made a game out of "destroying Middle Earth" for several thousand years, by taking down anything the other gods created. He has been stated to have drained oceans, destroy continents and knocked over mountains - just for the fun of it. Some Maiar have taken down mountains, moved continents and so on by themselves.
You have to suggest that, throughout the entire story, Gandalf isn't allowed to use most of his due to the command of Manwe. As I said: When the fellowship is on the Cahadras, Gandalf - despite wearing the ring of fire and despite of his magical powers - watches the attempts of his friends to light a fire (because they are about to freeze to death). He just performs that easy task when anything else fails. The only time in which he might have used all of his power, was when being confronted with the Balrog - another being wielding power on his own level.
So, one might only ask what Gandalf could have done, if anything else had failed? Fortunately, we never found that out, but suggesting that he tells Frodo he would become worse than Sauron should he use the ring, we could conclude that Gandalf would be able to cause some nice amount of damage.