Welcome to the Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings arena!

The force would kill all except for Saruman/Gandalf. We've established that, no?

Even without the force, LoTR loses because only force-sensitives can wield Lightsabers (yes, I know there are exceptions). Even the exceptions have trained years and still are nowhere near any force-sensitive wielder.

Lightsabers are very different from normal swords in the fact that the sword's only weight is in the handle. The LoTR guys would be cutting their own limbs off trying to block the attacks from the SW guys.

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
Even without the force, LoTR loses because only force-sensitives can wield Lightsabers.

kinda contradicted yourself there aye...

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
The force would kill all except for Saruman/Gandalf. We've established that, no?

Pretty much. Yes. Especially given that those others don't have much magical abilities they could use to defend themselves against force attacks.

Even without the force, LoTR loses because only force-sensitives can wield Lightsabers (yes, I know there are exceptions). Even the exceptions have trained years and still are nowhere near any force-sensitive wielder.

Lightsabers are very different from normal swords in the fact that the sword's only weight is in the handle. The LoTR guys would be cutting their own limbs off trying to block the attacks from the SW guys. [/B]

Urm. Why would the LotR people attempt to use lightsabers?
I would suggest that the LotR people, for this fight, are equipped with their regular weapons, with the difference that those weapons would be able to deflect lightsaber attacks. Otherwise the LotR people would be disarmed when trying to defend themselves only once (lightsaber cutting through their weapon). Not that it would make much of a difference, considering that the force users are going to force rape the LotR people (Gandalf and Saruman excepted) anyway.

I wonder how the jedi would deal with the army of the dead though...

Originally posted by Will-one Kenobi
Now before you get all mad at me here me out, there was a thread like this in the LOTR forum where people voted which was better SW or LOTR so I thought we could pit the two against each other for some fun (all swords swapped in for Lightswords at front desk) Commentary for all the matches are provided 24/7.

This, the OP, is what I based it on.

An army of the dead would annihilate everyone except The Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman).

Originally posted by Borbarad
And please, Lucien. Morgoth (who is a Valar) has made a game out of "destroying Middle Earth" for several thousand years, by taking down anything the other gods created. He has been stated to have drained oceans, destroy continents and knocked over mountains - just for the fun of it. Some Maiar have taken down mountains, moved continents and so on by themselves.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I never suggested otherwise (though just out of my own curiosity I do ask you to refer to me specific pages of a text, it's been a few years since I perused Tolkien). What I suggested was that Morgoth's (the most powerful Valar) ability to drain oceans and create mountains from the earth would not be enough to combat the destructive scale an attack which could destroy the earth itself, along with an attack which will obliterate all life in an instant, and against the telekinetic powers that the likes of Bane, Marek, Luke, and Caedus have exhibited. And then the rest of those rapscallious ruffions of Force-itude.

Morgoth would easily beat most SW characters. Sauron? That's debatable.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I wonder how the jedi would deal with the army of the dead though...

The army of the dead isn't one of the combatants on the list (Aragorn can only summon them once AND HE HAS TO GO TO THAT CAVE TO GET THEM!!!) So what: is Obi Wan going to be like "oh OK I'll wait here for a few days while you go get your army"?

And if we're going to bring them in then let's bring in the Grand Army of the Republic. Then Middle Earth gets their armies.

GAR vs Middle Earth. I wonder who'll win...

It would be a slaughter. GAR wins, heck they even might win if Middle Earth had Morgoth.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I wonder how the jedi would deal with the army of the dead though...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
[B]The army of the dead isn't one of the combatants on the list [B]

(Aragorn can only summon them once AND HE HAS TO GO TO THAT CAVE TO GET THEM!!!) So what: is Obi Wan going to be like "oh OK I'll wait here for a few days while you go get your army"?

You completely missed my point. (what a surprise) My point was how the army of the dead (movie version, thank you Ares for the info from the novel) would fair if they should attack the jedi order. I am curious (there probably isnt a real answer) as to how the force would work on them if at all.

And if we're going to bring them in then let's bring in the Grand Army of the Republic. Then Middle Earth gets their armies.

GAR vs Middle Earth. I wonder who'll win...

It would be a slaughter. GAR wins, heck they even might win if Middle Earth had Morgoth.

You don't stop rambling, do you?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Ask me if I care.....

Do you care?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

You completely missed my point. (what a surprise) My point was how the army of the dead (movie version, thank you Ares for the info from the novel) would fair if they should attack the jedi order. I am curious (there probably isnt a real answer) as to how the force would work on them if at all.

Originally posted by ares834
In the books the army of the dead can not even attack. Also they never appered at the siege of Minas Tirith. What they did was scare the corsairs of their boats where they drownded, and the grey company, Aragorn, Legalos, Gimli, Elrond's sons, and a small band of rangers, drove them to Minas Tirith and helped in the battle.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Do you care?

Originally posted by ares834
In the books the army of the dead can not even attack. Also they never appered at the siege of Minas Tirith. What they did was scare the corsairs of their boats where they drownded, and the grey company, Aragorn, Legalos, Gimli, Elrond's sons, and a small band of rangers, drove them to Minas Tirith and helped in the battle.

Originally posted by Me
You completely missed my point. (what a surprise) My point was how the army of the dead (movie version, thank you Ares for the info from the novel) would fair if they should attack the jedi order. I am curious (there probably isnt a real answer) as to how the force would work on them if at all.

Can you read? My question is how would the Army of the Dead (from the movies since they apparently cant attack) fair if they were to face the entire PT jedi order. My question to everyone (except you) is how the jedi's force abilities work on them. We know that certain force abilites can effect spirits so if the jedi had knowledge of them coming it could be interesting if they could come up with a ritual such as the wall of light that imprisoned Kun's spirit and i believe it was the same attackt that rid Yavin of his presence.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Morgoth would easily beat most SW characters. Sauron? That's debatable.

Sauron's a bodiless eye with no feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sauron's a bodiless eye with no feats.

If he's bodiless...what exactly was he planning to do with the ring? wear it on his spire?

Actually, now i think about it, it probably would have allowed him to achieve physical form again...anyone actually know?

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
If he's bodiless...what exactly was he planning to do with the ring? wear it on his spire?

Actually, now i think about it, it probably would have allowed him to achieve physical form again...anyone actually know?

He wasn't bodiless. The "Eye" is just the interpretation of Peter Jackson for Sauron, following this description here:

"The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing." (The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, The Mirror of Galadriel)

That is how Frodo percieves Sauron in the Mirror of Galadriel. However. Sauron clearly has a regular body within the book.

Gollom, who was personally tortured by Sauron says, about Sauron's fingers, that "he has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough." (The Two Towers IV 3, The Black Gate is Closed)

Other hints that Sauron already had assume a corporal form once again. When seeing the armies of Mordor preparing to lay siege on the city, the people of Minas Tirith said that:

"...if the Nameless One himself should come, not even he could enter here while we yet live." (The Return of the King V 4, The Siege of Gondor)

Two orcs, which should know how Sauron looks like, at the tower in which they imprisoned Frodo for a short time:
"And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact ... until He [Sauron] sends or comes Himself." (The Two Towers IV 10, The Choices of Master Samwise)

And Denethor, when asked if Sauron commands the armies of Mordor that were marching against Gondor, he replied that:
"He [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won." (The Return of the King V 4, The Siege of Gondor)

When standing in front of the black gate, Aragorn demands: "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him." (The Return of the King V 10, The Black Gate Opens)

And of course, we can also look at Tolkiens words on the issue:

"...the year 1000 of the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron began first to grow again to new shape." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954)

And...

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 246, dated 1963)

So one might actually imagine him as he was seen in the intro of the first LotR movie before the Ring was cut from his hand.

Damn.

Well new, crippled Sauron is still featless.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He wasn't bodiless. The "Eye" is just the interpretation of Peter Jackson for Sauron, following this description here:

"The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing." (The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, The Mirror of Galadriel)

That is how Frodo percieves Sauron in the Mirror of Galadriel. However. Sauron clearly has a regular body within the book.

Gollom, who was personally tortured by Sauron says, about Sauron's fingers, that "he has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough." (The Two Towers IV 3, The Black Gate is Closed)

Other hints that Sauron already had assume a corporal form once again. When seeing the armies of Mordor preparing to lay siege on the city, the people of Minas Tirith said that:

"...if the Nameless One himself should come, not even he could enter here while we yet live." (The Return of the King V 4, The Siege of Gondor)

Two orcs, which should know how Sauron looks like, at the tower in which they imprisoned Frodo for a short time:
"And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact ... until He [Sauron] sends or comes Himself." (The Two Towers IV 10, The Choices of Master Samwise)

And Denethor, when asked if Sauron commands the armies of Mordor that were marching against Gondor, he replied that:
"He [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won." (The Return of the King V 4, The Siege of Gondor)

When standing in front of the black gate, Aragorn demands: "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him." (The Return of the King V 10, The Black Gate Opens)

And of course, we can also look at Tolkiens words on the issue:

"...the year 1000 of the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron began first to grow again to new shape." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954)

And...

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 246, dated 1963)

So one might actually imagine him as he was seen in the intro of the first LotR movie before the Ring was cut from his hand.

Really, all of those passages can be, if not disputed, at least held as only possibilities. The word of in-book characters who aren't privy to such knowledge can't be trusted fully, especially if they have a tendency to speak arbitrarily and are fans of poetic license.

That first quote by Tolkien doesn't make mention of Sauron growing a physical body, it too can be ascribed to Tolkien once again using his penchant for non-specific descriptions (examples of which can be found in the lack of details surrounding Tom Bombadil, or even the layout and geography of Arda), as "the shadow of Sauron" casts doubts and confusions on Tolkien's intentions.

And once again, I'm interested in a citation from Tolkien's work that makes mention to Gollum being personally tortured by Sauron. His use of the "four fingered hand" can be chalked up to the general knowledge that Isildur.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know of no passage in any work where Tolkien provides a detailed description of Sauron's appearance.

Really, all of those passages can be, if not disputed, at least held as only possibilities. The word of in-book characters who aren't privy to such knowledge can't be trusted fully, especially if they have a tendency to speak arbitrarily and are fans of poetic license.

That first quote by Tolkien doesn't make mention of Sauron growing a physical body, it too can be ascribed to Tolkien once again using his penchant for non-specific descriptions (examples of which can be found in the lack of details surrounding Tom Bombadil, or even the layout and geography of Arda), as "the shadow of Sauron" casts doubts and confusions on Tolkien's intentions.

And once again, I'm interested in a citation from Tolkien's work that makes mention to Gollum being personally tortured by Sauron. His use of the "four fingered hand" can be chalked up to the general knowledge that Isildur.

There is no detailed discription of Sauron in the books themselves. However: The second quote of Tolkien I provided talks about the events that take place at the end of LotR, so they are, at most, coming closest to what Tolkien imagined when thinking about Sauron's appearance during the time of the story: And that is Sauron clearly having assumed a physical form once again - which is all that was asked.

How powerful he would be in the context of a versus fight (especially without his ring) is debateable. With his ring the way he is displayed in the opening sequence of the "Fellowship of the Ring" movie, seems to be rather accurate. Yet, still, he was clearly more powerful (in the sense of personal ability) before forging the One Ring.

Is the eye actually the disembodied spirit of sauron?

In the movies yes. But according to those Letters, the "Eye" seems to be a more corporeal avatar. It also seems to function as a simple symbol and synonym, as Aragorn once said Sauron prohibited Orcs from speaking his name.