Okay, here goes:
First off, I'll make it clear I'm discussing the God of Classical Theism. Their God is infinite, in power and knowledge. Also, since He has no cause, he is infinite - he has always existed. This is my first premise.
However, from what we see around us, the universe is also progressing from a point in time when it began - presumably to a time when eventually it will end - Armageddon. Since there there is a time frame in which the universe progresses, that implies (unless the universe is infinte*) a beginning and an end.
In turn, this implies that because God must also view this beginning and end, God must also be existing in a time stream of some sort. He 'saw' the universe begin, and he will 'see' it end. Since God exists within time, that again implies a beginning and end.
That means that God cannot be infinite, and so doesn't exist. (The God of Classical Theism anyway)
*If the universe is infinite, there's no need for a God.
Originally posted by Trickster
Okay, here goes:First off, I'll make it clear I'm discussing the God of Classical Theism. Their God is infinite, in power and knowledge. Also, since He has no cause, he is infinite - he has always existed. This is my first premise.
However, from what we see around us, the universe is also progressing from a point in time when it began - presumably to a time when eventually it will end - Armageddon. Since there there is a time frame in which the universe progresses, that implies (unless the universe is infinte*) a beginning and an end.
In turn, this implies that because God must also view this beginning and end, God must also be existing in a time stream of some sort. He 'saw' the universe begin, and he will 'see' it end. Since God exists within time, that again implies a beginning and end.
That means that God cannot be infinite, and so doesn't exist. (The God of Classical Theism anyway)
*If the universe is infinite, there's no need for a God.
That would be true of the limited god of the bible. 😄
God is commonly portrayed as being eternal. However, there is more than one way to understand the concept of eternal. On the one hand, God may be thought of as everlasting, which means that God has existed through all of time. On the other hand, God may be thought of as timeless, which means that God exists outside of time, unconstrained by the process of cause and effect.
The idea that God should be eternal in the sense of timeless is partially derived from the characteristic of God being omniscient even though we retain free will. If God exists outside of time, then God can observe all events throughout the course of our history as if they were simultaneous. Thus, God knows what our future holds without also affecting our present — or our free will.
A more important basis for defining eternal as timeless is the ancient Greek idea that a perfect god must also be an immutable god. Perfection does not allow for change, but change is a necessary consequence of any person who experiences the changing circumstances of the historical process. According to Greek philosophy, especially that found in the Neoplatonism which would play an important role in the development of Christian theology, the “most real being” was that which existed perfectly and changelessly beyond the troubles and concerns of our world.
Eternal in the sense of everlasting, on the other hand, presumes a God who is part of and acts within history. Such a god exists through the course of time like other persons and things. However, unlike other persons and things, such a god has no beginning and no end. Arguably, an everlasting god cannot know the details of our future actions and choices without impinging upon our free will.
There are several arguments used to make a case for the idea that God is very definitely in time. God, for example, is thought to be alive — but lives are a series of events and events must occur in some temporal framework. Furthermore, God acts and causes things to happen — but actions are events and causation is linked to events, which are rooted in time.
I edited this - but I've taken it out and posted again, so as not to confuse people.
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Another argument based around time is that God operates within a time stream. An action comes after a decision - this is what we see in the universe around us. The action in question is God's creation of the universe. It must have come after God's decision to create the universe.
Bam! Time scale! God cannot be infinite.
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Adapting an example from the Craig's argument;
If God claimed to be counting down from infinity, then eventually from counting down he would reach 3, 2, 1. Logically, time must be progressing (universe as point of reference), so eventually he would reach zero. God, then, must have had a beginning.
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The idea that God should be eternal in the sense of timeless is partially derived from the characteristic of God being omniscient even though we retain free will. If God exists outside of time, then God can observe all events throughout the course of our history as if they were simultaneous. Thus, God knows what our future holds without also affecting our present — or our free will.
Are you saying that one could exist outside of time completely? But surely they would need to act to create the universe.
Time and space, like 2 sides of a coin, one can't exist without the other.
Is time real? Some say the past is past(gone), the future doesn't exist yet. That leaves only the present. But of course there is no present for if there was, what unit of time equals the present. 1 second?, half a second?. 1/1000th of a second? You can break it up for infinity. Could you even measure the length of your awareness of the present. If there is no exact scientific UOM for the present, it definition must be:
the passing or transference of the future into the past. But the past is gone and the future doesn't exist yet....
uh.....nevermind!
Time and space are a measure of causality(cause and effect). For example, if the effects of a nuclear explosion does not affect us, it is because it is separated from us on time or space.
Two events that are very distant from each other on space do not interact. They are not affected by the same causes, and it is not the same effects that act upon them. Two events too distant in time works in the same way, they are not being affected by the same effects.
Originally posted by Storm
God is commonly portrayed as being eternal. However, there is more than one way to understand the concept of eternal. On the one hand, God may be thought of as everlasting, which means that God has existed through all of time. On the other hand, God may be thought of as timeless, which means that God exists outside of time, unconstrained by the process of cause and effect.
Some schools of thought say "God" is both: immanent (everlasting in time) and transcendent (timeless/outside of time). All of time involves God, but not all of God involves time. Time is a tool, God's way of keeping everything from happening at once.
jerry
Re: What Is Time?
Originally posted by Storm
Attempting to understand the nature of time has always been a prime occupation for philosophers. There are widely divergent views about its meaning, hence it is difficult to provide an uncontroversial and clear definition of the nature of time.What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know.
Augustine of HippoWhat is time?
^ 🤨
Time is something I'm wasting by making this post......