Ukitake, Kyoraku, Shinji, Rose and Love all have bankais that weren't shown but still got wtf pwned. Yamamoto could be alive but seeing as how the self-sacrificing kido was burning him, his fate seems kind of bleak. If he is alive then that really does prove that good guys can't die in Bleach.
Exactly how does Ichigo's abnormal existence help Aizen in anyway? So far its just explaining why Ichigo is godmoded all the time but in canon.
What if Yamamoto's bankai is a letdown kind of like how Ukitake's so-far abilities are? That would kind of ruin someone's day.
Gin's probably buisy offing all the wounded or making fun of Unohana just being there which raises another question. Now that Yamamoto is out of the battle(possibly dead) what's the point of Unohana being there anymore? Aizen is now rid of quite possibly the only person that could beat him, so healing everyone else would just be a waste of energy at this point.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Ichigo has a different mask than he did before. Second vizard form.Ichigo also had a second release, something Tousen also had.
We should be on the same page, now.
Oh, f***, I forgot about that one, too. (I'm subtley disagreeing with you.)
So Ichigo not only has a second vizard form, he also has a second hollow form.
Damn, Ichigo's all over this unique shit.
To your second paragraph, Aizen already said that he was all over Ichigo's shit before he was even born. So, we know that it wasn't just a recent interest.
😄
No, no, no...
Ichigo had a first hollow form. The controlled version of that, is his first Vizard form.
Ichigo had a second hollow form. The controlled version of that is his new mask/second vizard form.
Tousen had a first Vizard form. His first hollow form, if it existed, is not seen.
Tousen had a second hollow form, that he was in control of. So it's kind of in the middle of the two.
idk. Personally i'd just chalk it up to the difference between a natural vizard like Ichigo and a Hogyoku one like Tousen.
Weirdly enough, Tousen referred to that form as a Resurrección. I don't think that form was a hollow form anyway.
The Hogyoku probably made him a near perfect mix of Hollow and Shinigami, such that his Vizard form could be seen as an Arrancar form. Therefore, he could theoretically access both Bankai or Resurrección in that form with the plain white mask.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, no, no...Ichigo had a first hollow form. The controlled version of that, is his first Vizard form.
Ichigo had a second hollow form. The controlled version of that is his new mask/second vizard form.
Tousen had a first Vizard form. His first hollow form, if it existed, is not seen.
Tousen had a second hollow form, that he was in control of. So it's kind of in the middle of the two.
idk. Personally i'd just chalk it up to the difference between a natural vizard like Ichigo and a Hogyoku one like Tousen.
It's like, amost everything you're saying doesn't address what I'm saying.
You're not telling me anything I already don't know or have posted.
Ichigo:
2 hollow forms 2 vizard forms 2 shinigami forms.
Tousen, 2 shinigami forms, 1 vizard form, 1 hollow form.
The end.
No, you are drawing distinctions that don't really exist. Ichigo's 1st Vizard was a controlled version of his first Hollow, made quite obvious. Same with the Vizards. Likewise, Tousen must have had a first hollow form we didn't see that is the hollow version of his first vizard form.
So the count is... Ichigo: 2 Hollow, 2 Vizard; Tousen: 2 Hollow, 1 Vizard (but he had a controlled hollow form more or less equivalent to a second vizard form).
Alternatively, the "Vizard/Arrancar" mix theory would also explain the discrepancies.
It seems like a plausible one IMO (not just because I came up with it >__>😉.
The Hogyoku is said to dissolve boundaries between the two. While Aizen thinks that the Hogyoku can reach its fully awakened state for a brief instant, it's possible that at that point, he didn't know just how powerful the Hogyoku could be; whereas he does now know.
Originally posted by King Kandy
The big problem here is that Urahara treated the vizards with the hogyoku as well. Presumably it has to do with them already being hollowfied when it was used, while Tousen probably was exposed to the Hogyoku while totally normal.
True. He said the results were unexpected. What did he expect? The hollow part to disappear completely?
Also, didn't he cast a seal it just after he created it?
The way I'd say it is there are release levels, that can be expressed in mask or hollow mode.
Ichigo has two levels. Level 1 is the hollow the vizards fought with/his first mask. Level 2 is as we saw vs Ulquiorra.
Tousen had one level, but he could chose which version at will, the contained mask version or the full-out hollow version/Resurrección.
Vizards can only use their mask modes on purpose, the hollow version being sealed away, whereas Aizen's improved vizards, Tousen and Gin, can use either mode as they desire.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It seems like a plausible one IMO (not just because I came up with it >__>😉.The Hogyoku is said to dissolve boundaries between the two. While Aizen thinks that the Hogyoku can reach its fully awakened state for a brief instant, it's possible that at that point, he didn't know just how powerful the Hogyoku could be; whereas he does now know.
True. He said the results were unexpected. What did he expect? The hollow part to disappear completely?
Also, didn't he cast a seal it just after he created it?
I don't have a clue what Urahara thought would happen. It would have made sense if he thought that it would have just stabilized their hollow forms, but when that's what happened he was surprised.
Urahara told Ichigo (iirc) that he sealed it after creating it, but we know he wasn't telling the whole truth. Actually, he sealed it away after using it on the Vizards because he realized fully what it could do then.
Originally posted by Q99
The way I'd say it is there are release levels, that can be expressed in mask or hollow mode.Ichigo has two levels. Level 1 is the hollow the vizards fought with/his first mask. Level 2 is as we saw vs Ulquiorra.
Tousen had one level, but he could chose which version at will, the contained mask version or the full-out hollow version/Resurrección.
Vizards can only use their mask modes on purpose, the hollow version being sealed away, whereas Aizen's improved vizards, Tousen and Gin, can use either mode as they desire.
BTW, Gin is not a confirmed Vizard.
On another topic... how exactly is Aizen not hollowfied by the Hogyoku, when he has the damn thing embedded in his chest?
Originally posted by King Kandy
I disagree, imo what we saw Tousen do was quite obviously level 2, as indicated by the huge growth in strength that accompanied it.
But level 1 hollow mode is quite a bit stronger than level 1 mask mode. Ichigo was really pushing the vizards to the edge, one after another, for a long time when they were merely trying to hold him off. They could barely manage against level 1 hollow and they knew it.
Level 2 power is insane next to level 1, and I don't think Tousen showed near that amount. Just the fully-unleashed level 1.
BTW, Gin is not a confirmed Vizard.
Yea, but still, he so is 🙂
On another topic... how exactly is Aizen not hollowfied by the Hogyoku, when he has the damn thing embedded in his chest? [/B]
Simple, he hasn't applied any hollow aspects to himself. He's using the hogyoku differently.
Originally posted by King Kandy
But I thought just contacting the released hogyoku caused it to activate.
The hogyoku breaks down the barriers between things, allowing the blending of hollow and soul reaper, but it's just a tool to allow the combination to happen.
When it was used on the vizard, they already had hollow power in them, and when it was used on the arrancar, it was done by Aizen, a soul reaper. So I think the elements need to be present first, it doesn't just automatically make one into a vizard/arrancar.
What Aizen's using it for... is something else entirely. I can only guess what the full effects are.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, you are drawing distinctions that don't really exist. Ichigo's 1st Vizard was a controlled version of his first Hollow, made quite obvious.
No, those two forms are definitive, distinct forms. Sure, they are related, but there is no arguing that they are basically the same: they aren't.
Vizard /= hollow
Vizard = both shinigami and hollow powers at once.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Same with the Vizards. Likewise, Tousen must have had a first hollow form we didn't see that is the hollow version of his first vizard form.
Definitely a baseless assumption. In fact, you're incorrect. We got to see how they turned in to hollow/vizards with Shinji: slowly, over time. On top of this, their hollow forms resembled more of a Vizard than they did Hollows: something that is also different between them and Ichigo.
Originally posted by King Kandy
So the count is... Ichigo: 2 Hollow, 2 Vizard; Tousen: 2 Hollow, 1 Vizard (but he had a controlled hollow form more or less equivalent to a second vizard form).
Incorrect.
Ichigo: 2 hollow, 2 vizard, 2 shinigami forms.
Tousen: 1 hollow, 1 vizard, and 2 shinigami forms.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Alternatively, the "Vizard/Arrancar" mix theory would also explain the discrepancies.
Indeed. This would expalin why Ichigo's first hollow form looks more likea hollow than the other vizards in their "hollow" forms.
Looks like the whole Ichigo being half-Hollow from birth thing was wrong, just like I thought. Turns out he is half-human and half-shinigami, again, just like I thought.
Either Mangastream translated Aizen's statement poorly, or Kubo changed the statement this week...meh.
Also, I lol'd IRL at the Heihaichi style headbutt from Isshin, as well as the way he flipped Aizen off.