Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and even Yammy seemed to know of Ulqiorra's second release, why would Aizen not?
Brah, Ulquiorra only stated that Aizen and the others had not seen him in his Second stage form. http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-348-page-8.html
There's little to no indication that Aizen did not know about it from that quote.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I still don't think Aizen knew about Ulquiorra's second release. Unless he really does keep tabs on the espada's release powers, I think Aizen was just referring to Ichigo's change in reiatsu more than anything. It'd be pretty bull if he knew every detail about Ichigo's fights without even being near them.Off topic: How is it that Stark's aspect of death outranks Barragan's? Loneliness > Old Age? That still doesn't make sense to me: If Espada power levels are ranked in descending order, shouldn't their aspects of death also follow that?
I feel like isolation is the worst aspect because when you are alone and in solitary confinement or something, you don't give a shit about time. time ceases to exist when you're left with yourself. idk, that's just my 2 cents about that
Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm sorry, did you really just ask me to prove Ulquiorra is a fallible character? I'm not dignifying that with a response.
I sure did. In fact, it was supposed to be relative to Aizen.
You made the claim, you back it up. That's how it works.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Aizen is clearly fallible, as recent chapters show. However, that is pretty much the only instance of his soopah planz truly failing. Aizen has been virtually omniscient for most of the manga (Obviously an overstatement, but he is pretty much supercompetent in his planning), so yes his word holds far more worth than Ulq... ?
To your point about Aizen being fallible: duh.
Aizen has not been omniscent...even a little. He just has a master plan that he planned for 100 years. I'm quite sure even an average person, with 100 years of planning, could do something similar. Kubo's writing doesn't mean logic has to be thrown out when viewing the material with an external perspective.
And, no, his word does not hold more weight than Ulq's, as far as credability goes. That's just silly. Prove it. 😐
Originally posted by NemeBro
Especially considering him commenting that he knows the result of Ichigo's fight proves already that he knows of Ulq's second released, how could he know one without the other?
No it doesn't. Not at all. Ichigo simply surviving after "sensing" his approach, right as he was leaving, would prove he defeated Ulq in some shape or form. Anything beyond that is literally, baseless speculation or is simply wrong.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Please respond to more than my initial point please.
K?
Originally posted by NemeBro
You ignore the point that Aizen was aware of Ichigo transcending his normal Hollow abilities, aka he knew of the H2 release. How could he know of that when he did not know of Ulquiorra's second release, as you so confidently spew as if it were fact?
That's easy: at any point in time that Ichigo used his Hollow mask with Aizen being around the area Ichigo was, Aizen could automatically sense Ichigo.
Then there's the whole thing about Kuchiki destroying Ichigo's "spirit gates" and Urahara knowing a "hollowification" path to restoration of his spiritual "gates". Surely Aizen knows of that since he knows almost as much as Urahara when it comes to hollowfication? Then there's the point where Ichigo put on the mask before Aizen told Ichigo about his commentary on Ichigo's fight with Ulq.
Ichigo's Vizard form against Grimmjow was quite easily his absolute highest. Aizen had seen this level of shinigami/hollow hybrid before from captain level shinigamis. Aizen was very much aware of Ulq's ability to match Ichigo's mask form in just Ulq's first form: duh, we saw that before their second fight showdown. So, it's rather easy to conclude that Ichigo found a power beyond his already observed Vizard form:
Ichigo was simply no match for Ulq's first form and certainly no match for Ulq's release. Rather simple
In other words, you have no logical leg to stand on, no matter how you look at it or approach it. There's a bajillion different reasons of why Aizen would know of Ichigo's hollowfication before that discussion and no reason to assume of Ichigo's ascension to a level higher than his Vizard form other than this simple logic: Vizard Ichigo is weaker than Ulq'a first form. Here would be Aizen's logic: "If Ichigo made it back, past Ulq, that means he had to become much much stronger than his Vizard form to reach me here in Fake Karakura town in order to make it past Ulq in his release form."
For me, this is just absurdly obvious.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Aizen not acknowledging Ulquiorra's release means... Well contrary to your belief that it makes you infallibly correct, it only proves one thing, Aizen did not bring it up. Why would he for that matter? Ulq is dead, and is no longer a factor in Aizen's plans.
You're arguing in circles now. Aizen never directly or indirectly claimed to know of Ulq's second release. You guys are claiming he knew about it. What you said above does nothing to counter that point. You must prove that he knew of the second release when you can't because Aizen never directly or indirectly acknowledged his (Ulq's) second release.
The closest you can get is Aizen acknolwedging Ichigo reaching some sort of level beyond that of his Vizard form because Ichigo would have had to get to that level in order to beat Ulq's first release form. Anything concluded beyond that is baseless speculation.
Originally posted by NemeBro
As for your final point, consider the context of the scene. He killed Harribel out of frustration, because the Espada were all weaker than him. Are you implying that he expected the Espada to be as strong as him with the backing of the Hogyoku? Because why would he expect them to be of the same calibur as what he aspired to? It was clear he was frustrated that he was stronger than them all already, making them useless to him.
This is Aizen who is supposed to be Yamamoto's equal minus Yamamoto having higher spiritual power reserves.
Aizen is at LEAST twice as strong as the average captain as that was the requirement to use the Hogyoku.
We know that only the Quattro would be comparable or higher than the average captain. Starrk was defeated by the top tier captains (both at the same time, for the mot part), Barragan was defeated by one of the very best Kidu users (only the former kidu corps captain, Urahara, and possibly Yamamoto can claim to be on his level.), and Harribel was all but defeatd by a group of Vizards and Toshiro. So, in each instance, we have the top 3 falling to multiple people, living up to their rep as the quattro.
Aizen defeated an already defeated Harribel. Harribel was definitely not Starrk or Barragan level.
Yamamoto, imo, could have defeated any of the Espada. Both Ukitake and Shunsui did NOT use their Bankai against Starrk. So, we have Aizen who is clearly top tier captain class defeating Harrible and this somehow makes my point any less than what it is?
Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and even Yammy seemed to know of Ulqiorra's second release, why would Aizen not?
Yammy never directly nor indirectly acknowledged Ulq's second release. He only seemed to become slightly solemn at his passing. He wasn't shocked by his release, though, which COULD lead to speculation that Yammy knew of his second release. So why would Ulq indicate that really no one knew about that release?
It's possible that Yammy knew of his release since the two were a pair but that's still speculation.
I prolly made lots of spelling mistakes. Didn't have time to go back over and proofread.