Aizen was more intelligent than everyone else, and everything he accomplished was the result of being brilliant.
Yhwach was simply born with a power that allowed him to gain reverence and prominence.
I prefer Aizen more than Yhwach for the same reason i prefer someone like Steve Jobs over Donald Trump... Yhwach was born on 3rd base and has it in his mind that he has a actually done something of note.
Originally posted by marwash22Intelligence is a trait you are born with. No different than Yhwach being born with an unusual power.
Aizen was more intelligent than everyone else, and everything he accomplished was the result of being brilliant.Yhwach was simply born with a power that allowed him to gain reverence and prominence.
I prefer Aizen more than Yhwach for the same reason i prefer someone like Steve Jobs over Donald Trump... Yhwach was born on 3rd base and has it in his mind that he has a actually done something of note.
Actually Aizen was also born with an unusual amount of power (indeed, his inherent might was his most important character trait), but unlike Yhwach his power came with no cost. He was just really strong. Yhwach was born with little power in of himself, but used that power in a way that increased his own personal strength to an incredible extent. Furthermore, Yhwach's power has drawbacks, namely that it depletes over time. He has to constantly work to fuel his power or else he will be the main character from Johnny Got His Gun again.
Yhwach is a workhorse compared to Aizen, whose intelligence played second fiddle to his ability to just be stronger than almost everyone else.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Intelligence is a trait you are born with. No different than Yhwach being born with an unusual power.Actually Aizen was also born with an unusual amount of power (indeed, his inherent might was his most important character trait), but unlike Yhwach his power came with no cost. He was just really strong. Yhwach was born with little power in of himself, but used that power in a way that increased his own personal strength to an incredible extent. Furthermore, Yhwach's power has drawbacks, namely that it depletes over time. He has to constantly work to fuel his power or else he will be the main character from Johnny Got His Gun again.
Yhwach is a workhorse compared to Aizen, whose intelligence played second fiddle to his ability to just be stronger than almost everyone else.
Nah to everything you said.
Intelligence is both environment and genetics.
Aizen had to work for his power. He had to learn everything and become more powerful. You think people are born knowing all the Kidou shit?
The only thing he was given was his Zanpakuto...sort of. That's the only thing he didn't earn.
plenty of people are born with higher intellects, but accomplish exactly jack and shit in their lives.
For all Aizen's power (not denying he was strong), his planning is what helped him achieve his goals... his power simply assisted him in staying alive to see them to fruition.
Aizen didn't accomplish his goals simply due to being stronger than everyone else, he's not Ichigo.
Originally posted by dadudemonNowhere did I say Aizen never worked for any his power. What he did have was a considerable starting advantage on the majority of the cast.
Nah to everything you said.Intelligence is both environment and genetics.
Aizen had to work for his power. He had to learn everything and become more powerful. You think people are born knowing all the Kidou shit?
The only thing he was given was his Zanpakuto...sort of. That's the only thing he didn't earn.
Yhwach also explicitly learned how to better transfer his spiritual power to others. From his sole ability (to manipulate spiritual power) he developed all the powers inherent to every Quincy, as well as a few of his own.
Thanks for reminding me about his Zanpakuto though. His Shikai is more potent than most Bankai.
Originally posted by marwash22Sure, and some people who have twelve inch cocks don't become porn stars. That doesn't change the advantage his unusually brilliant mind and power gave him over others. He had to learn how to apply that power, sure (and probably read books on being an evil mastermind idk), but without that natural strength he wouldn't have been nearly as dangerous, right?
plenty of people are born with higher intellects, but accomplish exactly jack and shit in their lives.For all Aizen's power (not denying he was strong), his planning is what helped him achieve his goals... his power simply assisted him in staying alive to see them to fruition.
Aizen didn't accomplish his goals simply due to being stronger than everyone else, he's not Ichigo.
Also, it isn't like Yhwach is short on plans himself. He didn't cripple Soul Society and kill Yamamoto just by running in and beating everyone to death with his fists. He did so through clever trickery.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Nowhere did I say Aizen never worked for any his power. What he did have was a considerable starting advantage on the majority of the cast.
I think you'd have a point if you were talking about Thoshiro. But it looks like Aizen actually worked pretty hard to get to where he is today: much more so that Toshiro.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Yhwach also explicitly learned how to better transfer his spiritual power to others.
Not really...it does not appear he learned jack shit. Looks like it is just part of his power set and that required no learning at all. It's like a Vampire Bat being born with the ability to suck blood, mate, have babies, etc.
Originally posted by NemeBro
From his sole ability (to manipulate spiritual power) he developed all the powers inherent to every Quincy, as well as a few of his own.
Did he really? Because nothing indicates he did that. It could have been others who came up with this. For example, Sun Tzu may have wrote art of war but he certainly did not create the Hydrogen bomb. Also, using those abilities seems like...something they naturally know how to do? Ichigo "accidentally" used them, remember?
Originally posted by NemeBro
Thanks for reminding me about his Zanpakuto though. His Shikai is more potent than most Bankai.
I disagree. His Shikai is the most broken thing in the series. Nothing comes close. Seriously...it turns any person who sees it, into a "brain in a vat" scenario. Short of actually and directly manipulating reality, there's nothing more broken and overpowered in any series than that. It gives him functional god-like powers over people who see it.
Also, thinking about it, it makes me think that Aizen is a pervert and his sword is a metaphor for his dick. Anyone who sees it is mesmerized by his dick and will believe anything Aizen wants. That's very rapey, once you think about it.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, and some people who have twelve inch cocks don't become porn stars. That doesn't change the advantage his unusually brilliant mind and power gave him over others. He had to learn how to apply that power, sure (and probably read books on being an evil mastermind idk), but without that natural strength he wouldn't have been nearly as dangerous, right?
I think you give him too much credit. I'm smarter than Aizen. You're smarter Aizen. MyWash is smarter than Aizen. Pretty much any person posting around these parts with even a decent amount of intelligence is smarter than Aizen.
Keep in mind that Aizen's character is written by a person who is dumber than we are so, naturally, Aizen will not be as smart as we are.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you'd have a point if you were talking about Thoshiro. But it looks like Aizen actually worked pretty hard to get to where he is today: much more so that Toshiro.
Maybe. Who cares though? We're not talking about Toshiro.
Not really...it does not appear he learned jack shit. Looks like it is just part of his power set and that required no learning at all. It's like a Vampire Bat being born with the ability to suck blood, mate, have babies, etc.
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/565/13
"But then he discovered a much more powerful way."
Did he really? Because nothing indicates he did that. It could have been others who came up with this. For example, Sun Tzu may have wrote art of war but he certainly did not create the Hydrogen bomb. Also, using those abilities seems like...something they naturally know how to do? Ichigo "accidentally" used them, remember?
If others came up with those abilities then he would still have to learn how to use them. Much like Aizen would have to learn how to use Kido.
Ichigo did indeed accidentally use them, but he's also benefiting from the powers Yhwach already developed. He is the primogenitor of the Quincy. Quincy did not even exist until he learned how to permanently engrave his soul on another.
I disagree. His Shikai is the most broken thing in the series. Nothing comes close. Seriously...it turns any person who sees it, into a "brain in a vat" scenario. Short of actually and directly manipulating reality, there's nothing more broken and overpowered in any series than that. It gives him functional god-like powers over people who see it.Also, thinking about it, it makes me think that Aizen is a pervert and his sword is a metaphor for his dick. Anyone who sees it is mesmerized by his dick and will believe anything Aizen wants. That's very rapey, once you think about it.
So, how does you saying his Shikai is the most broken thing in the series disagree with my assertion that it "is more potent than most Bankai"? By the way, I only say "most" because I am accepting the possibility that there is some incredibly broken Bankai I have forgotten about. I can't think of any nearly as cheap off the top of my head.
So was the way he treated Hinamori, oho.
Originally posted by dadudemonI'd agree with you, but we're talking about in-universe. Aizen may be dumber than we are, but almost everyone else in his setting is written or meant to be dumber still. So he's still a genius (or at least is intended to be one), by the standards of Bleach.
I think you give him too much credit. I'm smarter than Aizen. You're smarter Aizen. MyWash is smarter than Aizen. Pretty much any person posting around these parts with even a decent amount of intelligence is smarter than Aizen.Keep in mind that Aizen's character is written by a person who is dumber than we are so, naturally, Aizen will not be as smart as we are.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Maybe. Who cares though? We're not talking about Toshiro.
In your very next post, you make a comment about comparing him to "in-universe characters." So you want to have your cake and eat it, too. You can't. Toshiro is a better example of what you're trying to say. The only thing Aizen was handed was his amazing Shikai. Everything else, he worked for. Toshiro, on the other hand, was handed vast power, even as a weeee laddie, and then handed the most powerful Ice-Type Zanny, and he's a genius. He's like...everything you're complaining about Aizen but actually fits what you're complaining about. 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/565/13"But then he discovered a much more powerful way."
Uh huh. So let's keep in mind that this is a different narrative to what you were trying to paint, earlier. What you're doing, here, is proving my point. Bach was born with his powers. Keep in mind that you said this:
"Yhwach also explicitly learned how to better transfer his spiritual power to others." You implied something more, here. You were trying to make it seem like Bach worked for his powers, unlike Aizen. In fact, you just proved my point that Bach just simply learned how to use the powers he was born with unlike Aizen who had to develop everything from what seems like nothing.
That's not really the same as Aizen spending decades in a lab trying to create a magic butt-crystal, now is it? That's simply a vampire bat figuring out how to suck people's blood.
Also, lol, he carves the initial "B" into their soul because he's making them his b*tch. No doubt.
Originally posted by NemeBro
If others came up with those abilities then he would still have to learn how to use them. Much like Aizen would have to learn how to use Kido.
While this is a great point to support part of your position, this does not support another position you held which was you painting him out to be the grandmaster daddy wizard of all the Quincy. Again, this is another situation where you want to have your cake and eat it too. He either is a super genius who invented those amazing abilities or he learned them. 🙂
Regardless, now you're painting him as a genius or very gifted person, from birth, which is exactly what...............
wait for it.....
you're complaining about regarding Aizen. rofl
So what do you want? Do you want a hard working idiot a la Naruto or do you want a gifted genius that worked decades? Hey, the genius that figured shit out without decades of work is Urahara. He's what you want Aizen to be.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Ichigo did indeed accidentally use them, but he's also benefiting from the powers Yhwach already developed.
Well, this is pretty much what I wanted you to concede about that particular point so I'm on this topic and do not need to cover it anymore. I just wanted you to indicate that it wasn't something people really had to learn as it can be accidentally done and used again...meh, it's more like figuring out how to walk as a baby rather than showing how much of a genius someone is.
Originally posted by NemeBro
So, how does you saying his Shikai is the most broken thing in the series disagree with my assertion that it "is more potent than most Bankai"? By the way, I only say "most" because I am accepting the possibility that there is some incredibly broken Bankai I have forgotten about. I can't think of any nearly as cheap off the top of my head.
That's quite simple.
You said, "His Shikai is more potent than most Bankai."
My position is not your position. My position is, "His shikai is more powerful than all Bankai."
These are not the same. If this were expressed as logic, there is no logical equality in what we are saying.
Sentimentally, sure, my position is superlative and yours is just supreme pizza. If you can't make sense of what I just said, don't worry about it: I am hungry and going to get some pizza right now and I just wanted to convey that our positions are on a sliding scale where I am a 10 and you are an 8.
Originally posted by NemeBro
So was the way he treated Hinamori, oho.
When I first started reading bleach, I was...I think 19? I thought Hinamori was attractive. 🙁
Now that I'm a decade older, I don't think so. She seems annoying.
Originally posted by dadudemon
In your very next post, you make a comment about comparing him to "in-universe characters." So you want to have your cake and eat it, too. You can't. Toshiro is a better example of what you're trying to say. The only thing Aizen was handed was his amazing Shikai. Everything else, he worked for. Toshiro, on the other hand, was handed vast power, even as a weeee laddie, and then handed the most powerful Ice-Type Zanny, and he's a genius. He's like...everything you're complaining about Aizen but actually fits what you're complaining about. 🙂
Sure, in a post directed to you about a Red Herring you brought up. My stance is and always has been about how Yhwach and Aizen compare, with my only posts addressing other characters being ones in response to the aforementioned Red Herrings (IRL people and Toshiro) you've brought up, or to make a comment on their relative prowess (spiritually or intellectually) in the setting.
I'm not going to indulge this anymore though, so if you want to continue this discussion stay on topic. 👆
It's my fault for responding to your irrelevant points in the first place.
Uh huh. So let's keep in mind that this is a different narrative to what you were trying to paint, earlier.
It isn't. I said Yhwach had to learn how to better transfer his powers and wasn't born knowing how to do this particular ability. You disagreed. I proved you wrong.
What you're doing, here, is proving my point. Bach was born with his powers. Keep in mind that you said this:"Yhwach also explicitly learned how to better transfer his spiritual power to others." You implied something more, here. You were trying to make it seem like Bach worked for his powers, unlike Aizen. In fact, you just proved my point that Bach just simply learned how to use the powers he was born with unlike Aizen who had to develop everything from what seems like nothing.
That's not really the same as Aizen spending decades in a lab trying to create a magic butt-crystal, now is it? That's simply a vampire bat figuring out how to suck people's blood.
Prove it was instinctual.
Your claim that Aizen had to develop everything from "what seems like nothing" is directly contradicted by the manga. Aizen's deal was that he was always so much stronger than everyone else that he felt lonely. Did he still have to train? Probably, but he certainly had a great deal more talent than most characters.
While this is a great point to support part of your position,
I am aware.
this does not support another position you held which was you painting him out to be the grandmaster daddy wizard of all the Quincy. Again, this is another situation where you want to have your cake and eat it too. He either is a super genius who invented those amazing abilities or he learned them. 🙂Regardless, now you're painting him as a genius or very gifted person, from birth, which is exactly what...............
wait for it.....
you're complaining about regarding Aizen. rofl
And here is where you demonstrate that you never grasped my point from the beginning.
I was not complaining about Aizen. I was criticizing marwash's reasons for disliking Yhwach when many of those gripes could also be applied to Aizen. I was also asserting that Yhwach does in fact work harder to maintain his power than Aizen (he actually has to, or he will lose it). In fact, I actually pointed out similarities between the two, like that Yhwach was also a competent planner and manipulator (the reason marwash liked him).
To help you out, let me type my point in full: both Yhwach and Aizen had starting gifts that made them different from other people, but while Aizen likely did train to increase his already considerable power and intellect, Yhwach had to develop an entirely new form of spiritual being and has to constantly work to maintain the power he has built up. He was given an easy way to acquire power sure, but unlike Aizen his spiritual power constantly depletes. If he doesn't continuously work to increase his power he will eventually revert back to Johnny Got His Gun tier. This point is in response to marwash's claim that Yhwach was handed
Oh, and at no point did I concede anything. I'm just pointing out that whether or not Yhwach had to work to develop Quincy powers or if he created them himself, my argument is still supported. 👆
That's probably what makes it such a good argument.
So what do you want? Do you want a hard working idiot a la Naruto or do you want a gifted genius that worked decades? Hey, the genius that figured shit out without decades of work is Urahara. He's what you want Aizen to be.
We're not talking about Urahara. This is about Yhwach and Aizen. Stay on topic.
Well, this is pretty much what I wanted you to concede about that particular point so I'm on this topic and do not need to cover it anymore. I just wanted you to indicate that it wasn't something people really had to learn as it can be accidentally done and used again...meh, it's more like figuring out how to walk as a baby rather than showing how much of a genius someone is.
It wasn't something Ichigo had to learn, yeah, I never claimed otherwise. 👆
That's quite simple.You said, "His Shikai is more potent than most Bankai."
My position is not your position. My position is, "His shikai is more powerful than all Bankai."
These are not the same. If this were expressed as logic, there is no logical equality in what we are saying.
Sentimentally, sure, my position is superlative and yours is just supreme pizza. If you can't make sense of what I just said, don't worry about it: I am hungry and going to get some pizza right now and I just wanted to convey that our positions are on a sliding scale where I am a 10 and you are an 8.
Kk.
When I first started reading bleach, I was...I think 19? I thought Hinamori was attractive. 🙁Now that I'm a decade older, I don't think so. She seems annoying.
What a pedo.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, in a post directed to you about a Red Herring you brought up.
Your'e doing it again: you want some cake, bro.
If you didn't want talk about other characters, then you shouldn't have talked about other characters. You can't say, "I don't want to talk about those characters" and then talk about those characters (or vice versa). You can't have both. You're not being consistent with what you want. 🙂 Regardless, you cannot ignore in-universe characters that actually make you point because they are in-universe. You can whine about only wanting to compare two specific people, all want but it doesn't matter to me: you're stuck with Bleach.
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's my fault for responding to your irrelevant points in the first place.
Yes, yes it is. 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
It isn't. I said Yhwach had to learn how to better transfer his powers and wasn't born knowing how to do this particular ability. You disagreed. I proved you wrong.
No, what I said. You have to respond with something other than stuff you've already said. A "nuh uh" does not count as a rebuttal. I've already addressed this line of reasoning of yours in my previous post.
I said, "Not really..." as he did learn about a power he was born with, clearly, but that was something he was born with. I compared it to a vampire bat learning about the stuff they were born with to better make my point. Sure, he learned about his power...but it was something he was born with. 😉 I think I even used humans learning how to walk. Humans are born with a shit ton of things that strongly indicate that we are made for walking. Clearly, our babies learn how to use those things that they are born with but that's not the same thing as you were trying to state. You were making it seem like it was some sort of intellectual feat of wisdom when it seems no different than babies walking.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Prove it was instinctual.
1. I never said it was instinctual.
2. Prove that the set of instinctual behaviors, for all animals, is mutually exclusive to the set of behaviors that involve learning. Once you do this, then I can indulge your strawman argument that says I need to prove a power that someone was born with is both instinctual and mutually exclusive to learned behavior.
Before you waste any time trying to prove #2, observe the following from things I have said, previously: "That's simply a vampire bat figuring out how to suck people's blood."
Originally posted by NemeBro
Your claim that Aizen had to develop everything from "what seems like nothing" is directly contradicted by the manga.
No it's not. 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
Aizen's deal was that he was always so much stronger than everyone else that he felt lonely.
Sure, after decades or even centuries of improving his power and knowledge which made him almost peerless. This is not the point you wanted to make and not what you wanted to imply. 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
...he still have to train? Probably, but he certainly had a great deal more talent than most characters.
Well, give us almost a century and I'm sure you or I could master Kidou to level 80-100 type stuff. Hachi apparently took decades to improve, too, and he improved to be beyond what appears to be Aizen's level.
Originally posted by NemeBro
And here is where you demonstrate that you never grasped my point from the beginning.I was not complaining about Aizen. I was criticizing marwash's reasons for disliking Yhwach when many of those gripes could also be applied to Aizen. I was also asserting that Yhwach does in fact work harder to maintain his power than Aizen (he actually has to, or he will lose it). In fact, I actually pointed out similarities between the two, like that Yhwach was also a competent planner and manipulator (the reason marwash liked him).
And here's where you demonstrate that you never grasped my point from the beginning. My point was your reasons for supporting Bach as a "good villain" and not for supporting Aizen as "good villain" are not kosher: they are contradictory, rife with illogical ideas, and your reasons actually synergize between Bach and Aizen (which is not what you're wanting to do). 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
To help you out, let me type my point in full: both Yhwach and Aizen had starting gifts that made them different from other people, but while Aizen likely did train to increase his already considerable power and intellect,
Yhwach had to develop an entirely new form of spiritual being and has to constantly work to maintain the power he has built up.
Here's where you make your biggest mistake. Bach was born with Aizerns equivalent Shikai. Sure, Aizen was literally handed his Shikai but he worked hard for everything else from increasing his spiritual power, mastering Kidou, mastering hand 2 hand, mastering sword techniques, mastery battle strategy, to mastering spiritual science. Bach was just born with his powers: literally.
Originally posted by NemeBro
He was given an easy way to acquire power sure,
Okay, you really do concede the entire point I've been arguing with you, here. If you can admit this much, just admit, "I like Bach more just because I want to feel his facial hair tickle my balls. I like Bach for similar reasons I should like Aizen but my fanboyism for Bach make it difficult for me to admit that."
Originally posted by NemeBro
..but unlike Aizen his spiritual power constantly depletes. If he doesn't continuously work to increase his power he will eventually revert back to Johnny Got His Gun tier. This point is in response to marwash's claim that Yhwach was handed
Yeah, he's not constantly working at doing that, at all. He just has to use the powers he was born with, every now and again, to replenish and charge up. 🙂 Bach was handed that ability from birth. Face it: MyWash was right, from the beginning.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and at no point did I concede anything. I'm just pointing out that whether or not Yhwach had to work to develop Quincy powers or if he created them himself, my argument is still supported. 👆That's probably what makes it such a good argument.
Actually, you did. 🙂
Keep in mind that these are the things I disagreed with:
"Actually Aizen was also born with an unusual amount of power..."{
Not true, he worked to get to his powerful state. If he was as powerful as you said, he'd be Kenpachi. Kenpachi seems to have had ridiculous amounts of power from being a small child. If Aizen had as much power, from the beginning, like you said, he wouldn't have needed to manipulate shit from the shadows like he did in the turn back time story. 100 years later, he just comes right out and fights everyone (indicating that he increased in power...despite having a manipulative master plan).
You also said: "He [Aizen] was just really strong."
Keep in mind that you conceded that he did work for his power and got stronger/more educated/smarter over time. That's pretty much what I wanted you to concede.
You also said, "Yhwach is a workhorse compared to Aizen..."
When that's not really true, either. It literally took decades for Aizen to get as strong as he was (before the whole magic crystal inserting into his butt stuff). Unlike Aizen, Bach could just steal power, something he was born with, to get stronger. 🙂 That's not much work, now is it? Also, remember, in the beginning, it seemed like people willingly gave him his power because he would "grant wishes" by healing them. This was not something he seemed to be able to control: fragments of his soul would leave and "heal" the people. When those people died, that fragment returned but stole from those people, making him stronger. This was something he had no control over. This is the part where I el oh el.
Also, Bach appears to have been born with extreme genius intellect because, even as a baby, he had deep philosophical understanding of his existance. A frickin' baby. He's more of this genius you speak of than Aizen. Keep in mind that people who touched this baby Bach, died in a few days, months, to years. He was able to basically kill them, all involuntarily, and absorb all their knowledge, skills, and talents. Again, keep in mind, that this is all stuff he was born with.
You said, "derp, worked hard" and I'm directly disagreeing with that. Working hard would be memorizing all the kidou and mastering it with decades of practice. That's hard work.
Also, and the final nail in you entire reasoning, is Bach calls himself God. He is the name for the Judeo Christian Gode: Yahweh. Sure, Kubo is a dumbass and can't spell it right, but the tetragrammaton is correct: YHWH. This guy calls himself God, even as a child, he called himself God. Look, when his eyes started to open, he was still a baby: