ROTJ Luke & Padawan Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul

Yoda called ROTJ Luke a jedi. Not a jedi knight, unless I have the special edited version where he doesn't say knight. And Yoda would have probably told Luke Skywalker he was as powerful as an ancient Sith lord if it would have gotten his ass going towards the conclusion of the movie. I still do not get where people compare Luke with a jedi trained from birth to at least 23-29 years of age (standard for humanoids) and who passed tests set by the council themselves!

But oh well, I'm not some fanboy. What do I know?

Yeah, he was a mess when he fought Anakin.

1. HObi never fought a Jedi, at the timeAnakin was Vader, a Sith. And I meant he sucks at fighting alongside another Jedi in a duel. He did better against maul alone than with Qui-Gon, he would have done much better aginst Dooku alone (in ROTS) than with Anakin.

Bullshit,

Dooku himself calls them a great team and fears them more together then either one of them alone. Obi Wan alone would fall much faster, he and Obi Wan work together as experts.

Originally posted by darthsith19
[B]Yeah, he was a mess when he fought Anakin.

1. HObi never fought a Jedi, at the timeAnakin was Vader, a Sith. And I meant he sucks at fighting alongside another Jedi in a duel. He did better against maul alone than with Qui-Gon, he would have done much better aginst Dooku alone (in ROTS) than with Anakin. [/B]

This is a pile of shit and dude learn how to use the

quote button

mauls got this because rotj luke is worse than padawan obi and also maul could have beaten quigon and obiwan but they couldnt have obiwan die or who would have trained yoda but anyway i go with maul because he took out a master

Dooku himself calls them a great team and fears them more together then either one of them alone. Obi Wan alone would fall much faster, he and Obi Wan work together as experts.

They are a great team. But not when going up against one lightsaber wielding enemy 2 on 1. If Obi truely fights better with another Jedi than alone then that means if fighting Dooku alone he'd have got wasted in 3 seconds, which I highly dout.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
mauls got this because rotj luke is worse than padawan obi and also maul could have beaten quigon and obiwan but they couldnt have obiwan die or who would have trained yoda but anyway i go with maul because he took out a master

How is Luke weaker than Obi-wan? He squarely defeated Vader by this time. Luke also is a JEDI KNIGHT by ROTJ. GL says both of those things.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How is Luke weaker than Obi-wan? He squarely defeated Vader by this time. Luke also is a JEDI KNIGHT by ROTJ. GL says both of those things.

Jesus, Glentract. Are you arguing that Luke Skywalker, with all of his two hours or so onboard the Falcon playing with a remote and perhaps a week with Yoda in the swamp is a full fledged jedi knight as ordained by the council? No. Both Yoda and GL said Luke was a -jedi-, not that he was a jedi knight. And to say Luke is on par with a real jedi knight from the old republic is ludicrous and unfounded. Period.

And please don't say "Well, he beat up Vader", because that was a conflicted battle where Vader didn't want his son to be killed; he wanted him turned or captured. If Vader wanted Luke dead, there would be a far more grim ending to ROTJ.... or even ESB.

Gosh Janus, get out of your state of denial. The movie's called Return of the JEDI! Who else is it talking about? Yoda calls him a Jedi, the Emperor calls him a Jedi, Lucas calls him a Jedi. Who else do you want to do it, Ragnos? How many times do they say Jedi knight in the OT? Not many, they simply say Jedi and what do you think they're talking about if not a knight?

Luke has 4 years since ANH, not exactly two hours. He uses multiple Force powers just as well as most other Jedi, (with the possible exception of blaster deflection, but he was by himself and not against worthless battle droids.) The guy defeated Vader in under a minute, no, Vader wasn't trying you're right, but Luke was trying even less than Vader was! Hence when he says: "I will not fight you" as compared to Vader's: "He will join us or die". He had Vader at his mercy TWICE! If Luke had been trying to kill Vader, Vader would've died even quicker than the 40 seconds it took Luke to beat him.

Look at his power in resistance to lightning. Count Dooku's one handed 2 second lightning blast kept AOTC Anakin out of the picture for a minute or more. That same blast was pathetically blocked by AOTC Obi with one hand on his lightsaber, Yoda even reflected it back at Dooku.

Now the Emperor's lightning Mace Windu was barely able to hold back with both hands on his lightsaber, and Yoda barely held it back with his hands. This same guy shocked Luke with both hands (not one like Dooku) for a good minute or more. This same lightning about 5 seconds of it eventually killed Vader. some 10 seconds after the shocking stopped, Luke gets up and drags his heavy father all the way to a shuttle.

Now, some of you think that Anakin hitting the wall was why he stayed down so long. Nope, watch it again, not only does he not hit the wall very hard, but he doesn't clutch his head or any part of his body, instead, smoke is coming up from his body. Earlier he fell out of a speeding speeder, clutched his side for a second, and was back to normal.

Let's review:

Anakin: Shocked by a much much weaker one handed blast for about 5 seconds and he did hit the wall, left him down and not doing anything for a minute or so.

Luke: Shocked by a much much stronger two handed blast for about a minute or more, and he gets up after about 10 seconds and drags Vader to a shuttle.

Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke.

Janus you do know Luke wasn't sitting on his butt for 4 years right? He was training, as in Shadows of the Empire and more. And no, he had little training, but that doesn't mean he doesn't learn quick. At the start of ESB he has trouble pulling his lightsaber out of the snow with the Force. By the end of the movie, he is handstanding with Yoda, lifting large crates and R2 with the Force while witnessing future events with the Force.

Look at Kyle Katarn for instance, he goes from a non Force user to a Jedi that beats seven dark Jedi, each stronger than the last with the last being Jerec who is about a Sith Lord and went through the valley of the Jedi. Kyle's only training is from a spirit and maybe a couple weeks or so. That's it. It can be done, and if you only go by training why wouldn't every older Jedi be more powerful than every younger Jedi? Oh and if Luke's training is so abysmal and he's so weak, how does he become so powerful so quickly? He soon defeats the Emperor's clone with no additional training, how I wonder with his "so little training"? He becomes a Jedi master and opens an academy teaching several students, restoring the Jedi, how I wonder if he was just a Jedi but not a Jedi knight like they were saying? Here's the answer, Janus is wrong and they were also too lazy to say knight every time.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

As for the fight, I think it's pretty close and Maul could probably separate them and win but like Fishy said, it would be hard.

^ Good job Revan! Only thing I gotta say is, about the well there's no doubt Sidious's is stronger than Dooku's as Yoda could hardly block it with his hands and Mace could hardly block it with his saber, but when Dooku hit Anakin he blasted him with everything he had, when Sidious was zapping Luke I think he was going extremely easy on him to torture him. Make it nice and long and painful... 😈

It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed."

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

[B]No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed." [/B]

Janus just owned your ass.

And for the pic (Which wouldn't fit)

Here's a question:

Do we have any evidence to suggest that ROTJ Luke is greater than TPM Qui-Gon other than beating a mechanized Vader who put up very little effort to defend himself?

I agree with Emperor Revan. I think you have just come to hate Luke in general. You hate him when he is a whiny little kid and still weak and then we he grows up and is kickass you start to cry because you can't accept he is good.

About the temple, I think you should just stop talking about that. You keep bashing the NJO, but I don't think you know anything about it. It was less than a decade before he opened the academy. Not "twenty years". Another thing, you said Luke is crap because he wanted to be a pilot. Anakin was the same and he became pretty freakin good, so that is a nice little steaming pile of crap.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

[B]No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed." [/B]

Ouch! I hate to be the guy this message was intended for!

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here's a question:

Do we have any evidence to suggest that ROTJ Luke is greater than TPM Qui-Gon other than beating a mechanized Vader who put up very little effort to defend himself?

No, we don't, which is my biggest point that everyone is dodging. The issue here is on their side "How much Luke did, omg" and for me "WTF? How is it he can win this fight in lightsaber combat?" And this then shows up:

I agree with Emperor Revan. I think you have just come to hate Luke in general. You hate him when he is a whiny little kid and still weak and then we he grows up and is kickass you start to cry because you can't accept he is good.

About the temple, I think you should just stop talking about that. You keep bashing the NJO, but I don't think you know anything about it. It was less than a decade before he opened the academy. Not "twenty years". Another thing, you said Luke is crap because he wanted to be a pilot. Anakin was the same and he became pretty freakin good, so that is a nice little steaming pile of crap.

No, I actually kinda like Luke by ROTJ. I like his look and his calmness, and I think Luke had potential to grow into being a very good character, personality wise and in wisdom and power. I think the NJO series was taking the proverbial cash cow and twisting its utters to get the last drop out of the post-ROTJ era, and it's by all means very poorly thought out and written. But the issue here isn't my stance on Luke at all; it's my argument. And neither you or ER can refute my points nor make any for your own stance that hold to scrutiny. None.

And yes, I said Luke wanted to be a pilot. His sole training was in dusting crops until ANH. So before that time, he was not a jedi, jedi-in-training... he was not even a streetfighter, soldier, or even a swordsman. He was a farmboy. How many farmboys do you know who live on the edge of the world in some secluded farm and are amazing duellists? Please, if you're going to attack -one- sentence of my entire 10000 character argument against ER's rabid defense of someone who can't be defended in this case, get it right in context.

And I'm not exactly liking the little Axis of Unreason developing here with you and ER. Normally you can at least put up some good points, Glentract, although you make a whole lot of assumptions in battles... such as saying Sion and Kreia are about equal and thus Malak can take both. Debate is not about having an opinion; it's about having a viewpoint and successfully defending it. If you are taking a debate class (as you say) you will come to realize that ER argues in circles and dodges specific issues, instead trying to bump up the 'greatness' of his character he's defending (Which is either Luke or Revan) and not trying to prove or disprove on rather unbiased terms how the person would win -in a fight-. And to make things a step up worse, ER tends to go at it over and over again, the reasoning going full circle back to the points he was trying to slip past in the beginning. ER has no debating skills I've come up against, other than to try and undermine Revan or Luke's competition, bump up their supposed greatness, or undermine me. And now you're starting to do the same thing.

I am a sucky debater...one reason I hrardly ever give long arguments.

i don't remember ever saying that Sion and Kreia are equal. I do know that you should generally be able to back up what you say with quotes especially if you are talking about someone in the same group. Please quote me on that, or "successfully defend it".

ER has some good points. Luke's ability to block the force lightning is representative of his power. it wasn't as powerful as the lightning used on Mace or Yoda in ROTS, but it was at least as powerful as what Anakin got and he got it for a much longer time. Some things, like the unarmed combat against the Rancor is dumb, but for the most part it is good.

Janus, I am going to be honest with you. I think you are a nice guy, but for some time now, you have pretty much been the leader of this forum. Notice how no one really challenged what you said? I think you are quite surprised that someone, or two someones, aren't listening to you and you are pissed off by it. You arguments haven't been a lot better than the other ones around here and you pretty much just say ER is stupid and has no clue what he is talking about and then you say I am starting to act like him. This was the exact same in some thread about Luke vs. Bastila or something. Someone disagrees with you and all you can do is say that they are becoming a fanboy and starting to annoy you and undermine you? It's starting to piss me off and if I have to butt heads with you over it I will, but if you accept that other people can have opinions and disagree with you and then not try to make them look like fanboys in the process, I will have no problem with you.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
i don't remember ever saying that Sion and Kreia are equal. I do know that you should generally be able to back up what you say with quotes especially if you are talking about someone in the same group. Please quote me on that, or "successfully defend it".

ER has some good points. Luke's ability to block the force lightning is representative of his power. it wasn't as powerful as the lightning used on Mace or Yoda in ROTS, but it was at least as powerful as what Anakin got and he got it for a much longer time. Some things, like the unarmed combat against the Rancor is dumb, but for the most part it is good.

Janus, I am going to be honest with you. I think you are a nice guy, but for some time now, you have pretty much been the leader of this forum. Notice how no one really challenged what you said? I think you are quite surprised that someone, or two someones, aren't listening to you and you are pissed off by it. You arguments haven't been a lot better than the other ones around here and you pretty much just say ER is stupid and has no clue what he is talking about and then you say I am starting to act like him. This was the exact same in some thread about Luke vs. Bastila or something. Someone disagrees with you and all you can do is say that they are becoming a fanboy and starting to annoy you and undermine you? It's starting to piss me off and if I have to butt heads with you over it I will, but if you accept that other people can have opinions and disagree with you and then not try to make them look like fanboys in the process, I will have no problem with you.

I'll find the quote in a bit. It may not have been those specific parties (Malak and perhaps either Kreia or Sion was listed though... so at most I'm off by one name... the analogy as you used it was still incorrect) So don't sweat that.

And I'm glad you think ER has some good points. I don't. I've taken logic and reasoning courses, both in high school and in college. I have some idea of what sense needs to sound like. And he doesn't make sense. Like this idea with the lightning: it is possible of the following:

1- Luke was struck with rather weak lightning, meant to torture him. Notice that Sidious says "And now, young Skywalker... you will die." while he's stopped for a moment, and then goes right back into it.

2- Dramatic neccessity, since GL makes movies, not sense neccessarily.

3- Luke might have a special resistance to force lightning.

So if either 1 or 3 are correct, you have to apply "OKay, how does this affect a duel with another person of considerable lightsaber wielding power?" And the fact of the matter is this proves nothing in that area. Even if you, for the sake of argument, say that Luke can absorb Force lightning... how did he do it? Writhed and cried out on the ground! How the hell does this help him, even if he does challenge someone who uses Force lightning? It doesn't. And that makes it a moot point. I could speculate that since Dooku can reflect lightning with his hand at a moment's notice he must be infinitely better than Yoda who had to use more of his body to lean into it, huh? There's a difference between inferring ideas and just wild unsupported speculation. The idea that Luke is great because he was shocked for a few minutes or so is wild speculation and a straw that ER's grasping at.

I think this last paragraph is really off. One, I can be a nice guy. I usually am. As for being leader of the forum, that's a title I won't admit to or ever accept; I'm here, I post a lot, and I have a lot to say. If people view me as a leader it's because of their choices and their stance, not because of any active measure on my part. And that is neither here nor there... The point of the matter is that my viewpoint wasn't challenged because it's more sound than the one you and ER are supporting. I'm arguing that the odds are against Skywalker at this point in his life regarding most duellists we use on this forum. And there's nothing to totally blow that away. I've refuted everything that's been put up. That has nothing to do with me not liking people disagreeing with me, because that's not it either. Nai Fohl disagrees with me from time to time, as does Fishy, Faunus.... none of us share exactly the same views on more than perhaps one or two things here at KMC... I know that much. No, the fact is that I've been buddies with you and ER for a long time now and pretty much haven't said more than a few words against your opinions in the past (Well, except for one or two drawn out debates with ER that went unresolved. But lately, thsi place is getting more and more haphazard logic and I really don't think it should stand. It's rather my duty to point out serious flaws as I see them, and if I'm mistaken I'll admit it. But neither you nor ER have shown me mistaken in this point. And I have a really nagging suspicion that you both are arguing that ROTJ Luke is good because you like him and NOT because of his abilities. And that fact that you both can't prove a solid case for him against anyone thus far is feeding that suspicion. So yes, you are both acting like fanboys... advocating victory for one party without any clear or defined reason, just "He is Luke". This isn't a close match like between Sidious and Yoda or Yoda and Dooku or some such... This is really lop sided. Point is, Luke doesn't have the training, willpower, control, and many other neccessities within him at this point to be a fully effective jedi knight and to dispatch even average force users with any kind of ease. So the odds are against him.

Now, as for agreeing to disagree, that's fine. I'm willing to respect someone's wishes if they ask it... But when you're coming in here brazenly like ER does (Days after the fact usually, and only long enough to argue half-assed for one of his two favorite charaters) I'm gonna come back with full guns. It's ridiculous, and you agreeing with him only encourages that kind of half-assed debate. I'm willing to respect your opinion on the issue, but if you want to contradict me and say I'm "in denial" as ER does, prove up.