Originally posted by darthsith19
They are a great team. But not when going up against one lightsaber wielding enemy 2 on 1. If Obi truely fights better with another Jedi than alone then that means if fighting Dooku alone he'd have got wasted in 3 seconds, which I highly dout.
Dooku fears them more together then either one of them alone, he wants to fight them together because it could be a challenge. You would think he has a reason for it.
Alright, first thanks to Darth Glentract and darth sith19. Oh and the Emperor was probably torturing him at first but after he said "Now young Skywalker, you will die." I think he was trying to kill him.
Janus, Glentract simply beat me to saying it, his last post is just what I was thinking. You come here and condescend to everyone who disagrees with you like you're never wrong or something, calling us stupid, terrible debaters, biased fanboys, and unlogical. Yet if you really read my post I said it was more likely that Maul would win this fight. You seem to think Luke couldn't beat a gizka and I get sick of it real quick. Oh, and why does it matter if I post several days later? I don't get on much because I have a lot to do and have little time to get on. What does that have to do with anything?
Now how are your points more "logical" than mine? Luke was trying less than Vader was and beat him in under a minute. Lucas says this too yet you say Vader would still kill him if he was trying. You say his resistance to lightning doesn't mean a thing though it's way stronger than AOTC Anakin's. You say he wasn't a Jedi knight even though the movie's called Return of the Jedi, Lucas, the Emperor, and Yoda all call him a Jedi, you think it's not a Jedi knight.
You say I dodge things yet you have nothing to say other average Force users used Force powers better than Luke except for maybe blaster deflection. Still you think Luke's powers are crappy and his blaster deflection couldn't stop anything. He was facing more like 20 well trained guys with blasters singlehandedly. Jabba is a HUGE crimeboss, and his forces are stronger than you think. Now, how often did Jedi in the PT deflect blasters from organic beings single handedly? AOTC Obi deflected Jango's, but that's one person's, no more. Yeah there were a dozen battle droids or so, but they always had someone else with them and battle droids are no match for a trained organic fighter. Yeah they deflected some destroyer droid's blasts, but they pretty much feared them and ran from they often. It only took a handful of clones firing to kill several Jedi masters. So Luke's blaster deflection still isn't as bad as you say. Oh but since putting up with the Emperor's two handed lightning blast for more than a minute has nothing to do with fighting, why did you bring it up?
Again, it all comes down to training why you think ROTJ Luke is so abysmally weak. Yet you rank Bandon over Maul who has less training. What about the Exile and Revan (end KOTOR) they had almost no training and became very powerful in weeks or maybe months. Kreia was completely stripped of her Force powers and within a year or so could still fry 3 masters with a wave of her hand. The Exile has less training than those same 3 masters he can kill so how can he kill them? What about Malak? He had less training than Maul or Sidious and definitely Mace but you think he can take all 3 if I'm not mistaken. Sion and Nihilus have very little sith training but you think they can beat Maul who has his whole life of Sith training. Dooku would almost undoubtedly have less sith knowledge than Maul but we know Dooku can kill Maul.
Now these are rhetorical questions, I believe Sion and Nihilus can beat Maul, etc. my point is that not everything comes from training and knowledge. Yeah they help, but it's not everything. The movie shows Luke is a powerful Jedi so I don't know why you refuse to admit him as even a Jedi.
Like Glentract said, I would appreciate you not insulting everyone who disagrees with you for no reason at all. I don't let opinions cloud my judgment but if I disagree with you I'm suddenly a fanboy. Even though I said Maul would most likely win this fight. Even though I said Yoda and Mace would probably beat Revan and Malak when guys like Fishy and you I believe said otherwise. Be more like Fishy and Nai Fohl. They simply debate with facts and support instead of insults dripping with disdain about how illogical we are, how dumb are posts are, and how much of fanboys we are. Now yes I called you an anti-fanboy but only because you don't even recognize ROTJ Luke as a Jedi when the movie title says he is and so does everyone else. We're still friends Janus, but your constant insults are irritating and pointless. You're becoming just like Illustrious. And this should be a debate, not who says the most insults.
TAKE THAT LUKE HATERS!!!!
Another point, Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, only two of these years were actually training under a Master, the other two were in the Jedi Temple. He started training at age 17. It took him twelve years of Jedi Training to become a Jedi Master. So, after twelve years of training, he was able to control the minds of 37000 crewman on a star destroyer and you powerful force lightning. That is far more than required for the present situation. Luke with four years of training would win. Out of the six Jedi Master's chosen to go on the Outbound Flight, he was the strongest. Just another point to show training alone doesn;t decide a fight.
Oh yeah, high five Glentract!
but as for your edit Glentract, I have to partially disagree based on unknown facts. That was Jorus' clone that was controlling the star destroyers, and he was more influencing them with a kind of battle meditation than anything. How his clone compares with the real thing I don't know, but the clone is pretty good and can use Force lightning very effectively. So the original was probably as powerful and like you said, training is not the only factor in determining power. ✅
Nice sig by the way. 😎
Oh and the Emperor was probably torturing him at first but after he said "Now young Skywalker, you will die." I think he was trying to kill him.
I think he was too. But considering his power as a Sith lord who is easily four times Luke's age at this point, why didn't Luke die right away? Because Sidious wanted him to suffer. You don't have any evidence that this is a sign of 'Force immunity' or anything remotely like it. At all. You and Glentract just think that him writhing and suffering for a minute or two under the Sith lightning is directly related to his ability to "be strong in the Force" is ridiculous. My argument where I say that your stance is unsupported is more sound than this. You have nothing to go on other than what you'd rather happened. You can't and won't admit that Sidious was drawing out the torture with his Force lightning, because this is one of the few points you have in Luke's favor.
Janus, Glentract simply beat me to saying it, his last post is just what I was thinking. You come here and condescend to everyone who disagrees with you like you're never wrong or something, calling us stupid, terrible debaters, biased fanboys, and unlogical. Yet if you really read my post I said it was more likely that Maul would win this fight. You seem to think Luke couldn't beat a gizka and I get sick of it real quick. Oh, and why does it matter if I post several days later? I don't get on much because I have a lot to do and have little time to get on. What does that have to do with anything?
No, I don't 'condescend' to everyone who disagrees with me. I never have. And I am sometimes wrong. I usually admit that my knowledge is shaky beforehand, or I correct myself if I am that much off. Like I said to Glentract, this perception is incorrect. But I still think you are both needing work in your arguments. You in particular, ER. You've had three or four of us trying to make sense to you before or at the very least to reach a stalemate, and you wouldn't have any of it. You are the epitome of stubborn here at KMC, as you were sitting there undermining Ragnos and the people he subdued in order to spell out the possibility that Revan could defeat him. Your argument went in circles and everything you had was battered down, same as now. None of your points standed to any real scrutiny, and that's because they aren't factors in the actual duel; they're just randomn points you like to drag out and claim the character's supposed power and badassness, like Luke writhing in pain actually means he can saber Bastila Shan to death. It doesn't follow. But i know you won't get that or admit it seems off. And Glentract I noticed is eager to hop on your little bandwagon, which is fine. But like I told him, it's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to put it forth like you do as it's a self evident fact and then NOT prove up. You haven't proven anything so far that convinces me Luke can take a youngling in saber fighting. Just "zOMG, he did this." Which is pointless because I saw the movies, perhaps more than you did.
Now how are your points more "logical" than mine? Luke was trying less than Vader was and beat him in under a minute. Lucas says this too yet you say Vader would still kill him if he was trying. You say his resistance to lightning doesn't mean a thing though it's way stronger than AOTC Anakin's. You say he wasn't a Jedi knight even though the movie's called Return of the Jedi, Lucas, the Emperor, and Yoda all call him a Jedi, you think it's not a Jedi knight.
How are my points more logical than yours? Well, for one, they hold up to scrutiny. In this case, as with Bastila Shan versus ROTJ Luke, there isn't anything to support that Luke would ever have a serious advantage over the opponent. You insist that there is, then you list off some oddball points as though those even relate to Luke's lightsaber and duelling skill. For the sake of this argument, only saber versus saber battle experience and ability should really count. It's not as though ROTJ Luke was strong enough in the Force to counter Sith lightning with his hands like Yoda did. Take this "Luke can resist Force lightning" argument for example: It's unfounded, and unsupported. The only thing I have from you is your view of the same movie we all saw over and over again, and your idea that it was somehow because of Luke's greatness he didn't die, and it couldn't -possibly- be Sidious just torturing his ass. If you were so right, why the hell is Glentract the only one on your side? Because this isn't a solid logical point at all, it's all wild speculation fueled by your -desire- for Luke to be better than he really is.
You say I dodge things yet you have nothing to say other average Force users used Force powers better than Luke except for maybe blaster deflection. Still you think Luke's powers are crappy and his blaster deflection couldn't stop anything.
I love it when you take my ideas and twist them out of context. That's the most popular way to get around my points, isn't it? Well, let's see, I've listed these following points as to why an average force user (Say, a jedi knight or padawan from the PT era) can take Luke:
- Much more jedi training
- Diverse background of experience, usually including lots of saber to saber training, if not actual fighting
- Better understanding of themselves and the Force on average due to this training and having longterm mentorship
And I don't think Luke's are the worst skills I've ever seen in the world, but when you consider that he has blaster bolt deflected twice by ROTJ: on the sailbarge of Jabba (Where he was singed) and on Endor versus the speederbike (Which was good deflection, but shortlived). Now I compare that to the ease with which average jedi knights like Bultar Swan deflect blaster bolts as in the Geonosis arena in AOTC. The jedi knights of this era are much calmer and more in control when utilizing their jedi powers, and their saber skills are much more fluid and less "Swing battah battah" like Luke's.
Hm. Your next paragraph is ridiculously drifting and doesn't touch on anything and I'm starting to run out of space so I'll skip it for now. If you think there's an issue in there that is so special it must be addressed, I'll readdress this paragraph later.
Again, it all comes down to training why you think ROTJ Luke is so abysmally weak.
Because he appears much weaker and less refined and in control than any jedi in the series. If his training was much better, he would rival AOTC Anakin at the very least. But he doesn't. He looks to be in all areas weaker or at least less refined.
As for the rest of this paragraph, it's redundant, since I've defended my views many other times and no one had a problem with them then. Why you choose to bring it up now is because you're trying to undermine me as an arguer instead of attacking my debate, which you can't do. There are valid reasons why all these persons rank higher than their older PT equivalent, and a lot of that has to do with the way Bio Ware made the game and its story. But seeing as Malak and certain others were Force prodigies with more training than Luke by far and more powerful sources and artifacts to their name gives them the edge over Luke in every way. If experience was the only factor to equal power, then Yoda would beat all.
The movie shows Luke is a powerful Jedi so I don't know why you refuse to admit him as even a Jedi.
A powerful jedi in comparison to what? He certainly doesn't compare with PT jedi at all. Well, he's probably smarter or better than Coleman Trebor, who was damn dumb to attack Jango head on. But while he's a jedi no matter what I say, I'll still argue he's no equivalent to a trained jedi knight of about the same age or even older, from the PT era. And to say otherwise is to be blind to the facts. He isn't. He will be, potentially more powerful than anyone else really, thanks to NJO. But by ROTJ, he is barely just coming into his jedi role. How you can translate that into he can defeat Bastila Shan or any other jedi or Sith is beyond me. It simply doesn't follow.
Like Glentract said, I would appreciate you not insulting everyone who disagrees with you for no reason at all. I don't insult everyone who disagrees with me, and I certainly never insult anyone for no reason at all. Don't play the victim, it doesn't become either of you.
I don't let opinions cloud my judgment but if I disagree with you I'm suddenly a fanboy. No, you're a fanboy because of the way you use your judgment, and it IS clouded by your bias for one character. you never give or concede any points; you just keep plugging away, saying they must be true and that it's me or the other person or the other duellist, or a trick of the screen lightning that is the reason why you couldn't have been wrong in your initial assumption. See, unlike you I admit when something I say is pretty off, and I admit when my stance appears weak. You don't.
Even though I said Yoda and Mace would probably beat Revan and Malak when guys like Fishy and you I believe said otherwise.
Can I see the direct link or quote of this one please?
Be more like Fishy and Nai Fohl.
I'm more like them than you are. I debate my points and I support my claims. You don't. You just spew out observations and label them as facts; you don't give ground at all. Unlike Nai or Fishy (though both are not nearly as stubborn as you or I) you never stop to consider that your observations may be in error, or may be more unsupported than you think. No, instead you just keep on plugging away. And remember, in regards to being irritating YOU are the one who waltzed in here and said first sentence that I was in denial. That was what set me off mostly, not just your faulty stance. And I'm out of room.
Wow, what a long post for so little information.
Even if we discount the force lightning. We have two major points you have yet to adress.
1. Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, the same amount of time it took Luke.
2. Luke solidly defeated Darth Vader in ROTJ. Vader has proven himself better than Darth Maul by beating him in a fight previously. This directly shows Luke as alone being better than Maul.
*sigh* Not this again. . .
Oh and Glentract, the fight between Vader and Maul was in Star Wars Tales. The same series that featured Han Solo crash-landing the Falcon on Earth, Chewie becoming known as the Bigfoot, and Indiana Jones discovering the body of Solo, shot to death by native Americans. Not exactly canonical material.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow, what a long post for so little information.Even if we discount the force lightning. We have two major points you have yet to adress.
1. Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, the same amount of time it took Luke.
2. Luke solidly defeated Darth Vader in ROTJ. Vader has proven himself better than Darth Maul by beating him in a fight previously. This directly shows Luke as alone being better than Maul.
Let me try then... hm. But this is it for tonight. No more debating with a wall for me.
1. Jorus C'Baoth. Not the clone, I presume? I've read about him once, and I believe it was in Jedi Trial. He was an old man and a master. Was he inducted into the jedi order at a young age? Or was he just some random nobody who walked up and became a jedi knight? If he was, that's pretty said, and it totally lowers the bar for jedi knights everywhere. Maybe you can furnish us with more information and sources on this one. And then tell how it mandates that Luke pwns bastila. I really want to hear the reasoning behind that one.
2. So L>V (No exceptions, all the time... regardless of personal conflictions) and V>M (despite the dubious source, and the fact Vader had to saber himself to kill Maul; not even counting the appeal to Vader fanbase with the stunt, since Vader fans outnumber Maul fans) therefore L>M?
Haven't you been scolded for using this kind of simplified logic before?
Here's the problem with this assumption (Read: Royal **** up in logical reasoning) It's just like Mace > Sidious > Yoda
If you say that Luke is better than Vader, despite Vader's experience, obvious strength, and the stark contrast from the few seconds where he busted out on Luke in ESB and the last seconds of the duel in ROTJ where he's feebly holding his saber up (This is the inhuman strength of a man who can hold a Republic officer up by his neck half a foot or so off the ground) then you are basically negating all of Vader's obvious advantages and better traits to say that Luke is better in everyway, just because of the duel in ROTJ where the boy swung his lightsaber like he was attacking a bee.
If this is the case, and you agree to this logic, you cannot ever argue for another person on grounds of more experience, superior strength, better command of the Force, or anything because you have effectively said it "doesn't matter" with this one half assed statement. Using this, you can only conclude who is better by who won, not by who has more in his favor. So if Han Solo picked up a lightsaber and luckily stabbed say, Yoda. And then GL comes along and calls him a jedi now and that he defeated Yoda, he suddenly becomes the best thing ever?
As for Maul versus Vader, you don't list any specifics in the fight. You don't alude to how it was won, and you don't tell us how close the fight was, or even if the way it was represented was close to how the characters acted respectively in their movies. You just go V>M.
In short, you haven't proved a damn thing, and I suggest you pay attention in the debate class you're taking, since you're not doing well here tonight.
Holy Crap, I think I have just woken up. (I know you are going to think this is a cover-up, but whatever). Has this ever happened to you when you think someone is really good and then a minute later without any outside influence(this happened before I read you last post Jauns) you completly change you mind? Well, this is like the third time this has happened to me. I am hoing to give this fight to Maul, but just barely.
There still is one last thing. Luke is rougly twice as old in NJO as in ROTJ. He is far more powerful than Maul at this point, over double in my book.
Now don't fall asleep on me, but when I am double my age(28), will I be five times as strong, fast and smart? No. I won't. Maybe twice as smart as I am now I would guess. I doubt Luke would be also. So if Luke is over twice as powerful in NJO as Maul and ROTJ Luke is about half as powerful, he must be about equal to Maul.(does this make any sense?)
Now don't fall asleep on me, but when I am double my age(28), will I be five times as strong, fast and smart? No. I won't. Maybe twice as smart as I am now I would guess. I doubt Luke would be also. So if Luke is over twice as powerful in NJO as Maul and ROTJ Luke is about half as powerful, he must be about equal to Maul.(does this make any sense?)
Clearly though, you don't have the force. That singular variable changes the whole equation.