Originally posted by Neutrality
Despite that, you may wish to do a google with George Lucas and "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"Even the DVD special edition has him saying that he based the movies off of mythological archetypes. Infact the Bill Moyers and JC's Power of Myth was done at Skywalker Ranch.
Plus the site you gave is even more bogus than the supershadow one. If supershadow made it up, he obviously got the idea from somewhere.
You must be new. A few things:
- Supershadow is THE original liar in the Star Wars universe. He's been sued at least once, I believe.
- Any site that doesn't have a Lucasarts official seal on it is suspect. In any case, Lucas himself has already made it bloody clear that there is black and white, good and evil in his universe. It is how he intended it to be. Don't start contesting this, since there's already a thread for it, and the idea has been beaten to shit.
- Kreia and Revan aren't moral. They do originally start off with good intnt (as did Dooku) but they strayed from the path of good and became of the dark side in their attempt to learn/the galaxy/etc. This -isn't- neutrality. Neutrality in purpose is the biggest fiction of all time. It also isn't just some ambiguous glob of good and evil mixed into one... Revan lead a war that murdered thousands upon thousands. If his true intent was to conquer this unknown empire from beyond the Outer Rim, he could have come about his goals in a different, more passive nature. Despite Kreia's ramblings, I believe that Revan DID fall and he thought he knew best when he tried to subjugate the Republic. But his efforts are seemingly for naught, since the Republic is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the Jedi Order was all but destroyed, and because of his actions many worlds were destroyed. Actually, his actions caused more destruction than Sidious' entire campaign. Revan delved into the arts of the Sith, teachings that are inherently evil. He walked evil lands and gathered evil artifacts. He surrounded himself with evil minded people. And he killed innocents. There is no moral ambiguity here. Revan. Is. Evil.
- NJO is a poorly written series, and I'm not the first nor the last to tell you this. It reads like fan fiction and doesn't have any depth to it. Also, the Vong are a pathetic enemy... something like the Borg is to Star Trek... Only making less sense due to the Force immunity.
I thought I already said this, but I'll say it again: If you want EU novels to read, read all the CLone Wars novels. Aside from Jedi Trial (Which was pretty damn terrible) the Clone Wars novels are the cream of the crop in SW books.
Originally posted by NeutralityAye Kavults
So then why did you say that human history (along with SW) is a conflict between good and evil?Secondly SW is about bringing a balance to the force.
Look up the archetypes. GL spend two years before SW researching mythological archetypes (Most likely got it from Jung who said to achieve individuation is the harmonizing of the conscious(Light) and unconscious(Dark)). I suggest you do the same so can you can understand better.
Star Wars is among the easier mythologies to understand, reading the myth of religion is far more complicated, and why there is so much neurotic dissasociation today, especally in Islam. It has been so hard for me to find anything there, except with Mary(anima/earth mother) or Khidr(shadow). To my surprise Christianity is full of it despite the state of Christian majority lands. Buddhism is well straight out in the open, next to no mythology there speaking directly about achieving harmony. Greek myths are good to, a lot that are similar to Anakins fall. Dealing with those wanting to achieve power only to fall or going insane. Since Alexander just came out on DVD, they (through King Philip) explain most of those 'falling from might' myths, that even a real person such as Alexander fell victim to(dependimg if he was poisoned or died of typhoid).
There's just not talking to some people.
Star Wars is not MYTH. It's a science-fictional soap opera.
And it's BECAUSE we believe we're good and the enemy's bad that I said much of our history is based around Light vs. Dark.
Post AND Pre WWll, in Soviet, Communist, Russia under Stalin and the KGB was Bad---Evil.
Star Wars was only ever designed in all 6 movies to be an internal/external struggle between the Light and the Dark, Good and Evil.
Empire--Evil
New republic--Good.
Sith--Evil
Old Republic/Jedi--Good.
Initially starting out, the Yuuzhan Vong were just another Evil factor facing off against the Galactic Alliance, another Good factor. But it was new, fresh, interesting, despite the Force-immune Vong BS.
Couple books in though, we get all this sh*t saying there IS no Good and Bad. "There's only this motherf*cking thing called the Force." to quote that feathery riddle-speaking, Gandalf-like, b*tch Vergere.
Try to understand our (the Star Wars fans) frustration, when we experience 20+ years of Light vs. Dark, and suddenly, in the space of a few books, our fictional imperialist views are brought down around our ears.
Throughout pretty much ALL of Eu and ALL of the movies, it's always been that epic struggle of the Clint Eastwood blowing away Lee Van Cleef type of challenge, if ya get my G + B & Ugly drift.
Originally posted by Neutrality
Fine, that source of evidence is flawed. But can you dismiss my other sources?
No, but I don't need to. As stated by Tangible and Janus, STAR WARS IS WHTE AND BLACK HATTED. There is no Gray, as stated in everything. Look at the movies, the books, everything is evil vs. good. Nowhere in the Star Wars universe is it not White vs. Black.
Originally posted by Tangible God
[B]Aye KavultsThere's just not talking to some people.
Star Wars is not MYTH. It's a science-fictional soap opera.
It makes one wonder if anyones has watched the Bonus Material DVD - Empire of Dreams...
Originally posted by Tangible God And it's BECAUSE we believe we're good and the enemy's bad that I said much of our history is based around Light vs. Dark.Post AND Pre WWll, in Soviet, Communist, Russia under Stalin and the KGB was Bad---Evil.
That is not history. I am not sure what history books your are reading, but those are subjective views. History is suppose to be an objective analysis of events. There is no good and evil in history. Is there good and bad in myth, yes, because it are these opposing elements that help to define ones 'Self' - The Hero, you even say this...
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Originally posted by Tangible God Star Wars was only ever designed in all 6 movies to be an internal/external struggle between the Light and the Dark, Good and Evil.
Yes and this is the Hero archetype in myths. The EU material strips away these mythological motif/archetypes and present thing the way they are, and this is the point of JC (who you will see in picture form in Empire of Dreams, along with commentary by Bill Moyers), that there is no good or evil (Bill Moyers - a Christian - during the Power of Myth interviews disagreed), and CJ said the same.
To quote Jung:
If we could see our shadow {Darth Vader} (the dark side of our nature), we should be immune to any moral and mental infection and insinuation. As matters now stand, we lay ouselves open to every infection, because we are really doing practically the same thing as they {thay being the so called communists}. Only we have the additional disadvantage that we neither see nor want to understand what we ourselves are doing, under the cover of good manners.
Originally posted by HimoKun
No, but I don't need to. As stated by Tangible and Janus, STAR WARS IS WHTE AND BLACK HATTED. There is no Gray, as stated in everything. Look at the movies, the books, everything is evil vs. good. Nowhere in the Star Wars universe is it not White vs. Black.
Since you are incapable of reading - this was in relation to GL being influenced by Joseph Campbell, and mythologies. You rejected this, so I stated to you need to disprove GL connection to mythological archetypes.
You have merely lost the focus of this discussion which was about Star Wars is based of mythological motifs/archetypes, and the EU is the way things really are when POV are removed.
Originally posted by NeutralityFor the Love of God....
It makes one wonder if anyones has watched the Bonus Material DVD - Empire of Dreams...That is not history. I am not sure what history books your are reading, but those are subjective views. History is suppose to be an objective analysis of events. There is no good and evil in history. Is there good and bad in myth, yes, because it are these opposing elements that help to define ones 'Self' - The Hero, you even say this...
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\/Yes and this is the Hero archetype in myths. The EU material strips away these mythological motif/archetypes and present thing the way they are, and this is the point of JC (who you will see in picture form in Empire of Dreams, along with commentary by Bill Moyers), that there is no good or evil (Bill Moyers - a Christian - during the Power of Myth interviews disagreed), and CJ said the same.
To quote Jung:
Most clashes in human history have both sides believing that their idea is the good one, and their enemy's idea is the bad one. Even the Mongels didn't see themselves as evil. Genghis Kahn thought the Persians were Evil when they sliced off the Mongel envoy's head because of a misunderstanding. That misunderstanding was the Persian's thinking the MONGELS were Evil. And they ended up destroyed because of it.
Hitler didn't even see himself as the Bad Guy and the Allies as the good guys. Same with WWl.
Communist Russia under Stalin--he killed like 20 million of his own people and thousands of his officers just out of paranoia. Ya can't saw that's not bad.
And Capitalist America saw soviet Russia as the bad guys, and themselves as the good guys. And vica versa.
The Brits saw the American Colonists as no good rebels and themselves as peacekeepers. The colonists thought they were the oppressed civilians who'd done nothing wrong and the Red Coats as tax loving f*cks.
The Union saw themselves as liberators of the minority blacks, and the Confederates as a slaveholders. And so on and so forth.
All human history is based on each side's views and ideals towards the other. It's still the same today. Western Society are corrupt pigs and must be brought to justice by the Jihad. (Holy Warriors) The terrorists have no respect for human life and love nothing more than anarchy and chaos.
ALL ABOUT OUR OWN PERECEPTION OF WHO'S GOOD AND WHO'S BAD.
You are talking about the people and idealolgies, you are not talking about the history. Mind you, that yes, odealogies and view of the people are included, but this just sets up the cause of events. The historian is not there to cendemn or condon the actions.
You are speaking completely subjectively and not objectively. You question famous scholars like Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell?
Originally posted by NeutralityAnd you hold them all high and mighty that they can solve the problem of Light vs. Dark in a fictional book series that was neither conceived, written or thought up by GL, who only made up the movies after watching Flash Gordon for 10 years and only gives permission for the books to be published?
You are talking about the people and idealolgies, you are not talking about the history.You are speaking completely subjectively and not objectively. You question famous scholars like Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell?
Oh and without idealolgies, human civilization would still be struggling through the Iron Age.
Originally posted by Tangible God
And you hold them all high and mighty that they can solve the problem of Light vs. Dark in a fictional book series that was neither conceived, written or thought up by GL, who only made up the movies after watching Flash Gordon for 10 years and only gives permission for the books to be published?Oh and without idealolgies, human civilization would still be struggling through the Iron Age.
You have trouble reading, GL based stars wars character off mythological archetypes after reading Joseph Campbell.
Originally posted by Neutrality
Since you are incapable of reading - this was in relation to GL being influenced by Joseph Campbell, and mythologies. You rejected this, so I stated to you need to disprove GL connection to mythological archetypes.You have merely lost the focus of this discussion which was about Star Wars is based of mythological motifs/archetypes, and the EU is the way things really are when POV are removed.
No, you brought up the statement that Dark Side (Persona of Evil) and the Light Side (Persona of Good) did not exist in the Star Wars Universe, but the force is the only thing. Then you went all with all this shit which none of it is official, and most is just people saying that to sell the book. The beggining was me disproving your theory that Star Wars is not a fight of Good vs. Evil, which I have already and so have Tangible and Janus. Yet, you completely ignore Janus. Why? Because he kicked your ass.
And you, Neutrality, have trouble never seeing the 1995 release of SS on video in which GL gives an interview with Leonard Maltin and clearly states in the ANH video that he loved watching Flash Gordon in his youth, and spent much of it devising a fictional Space Opera. With Luke Starkiller as his hero.
Originally posted by Neutrality
You have trouble reading, GL based stars wars character off mythological archetypes after reading Joseph Campbell.
You have shown no hard facts that that is true. Show me a OFFICIAL Lucas statement and I will give you that he based it off of Campbell. But since you haven't, your argument is irrelevant.
Originally posted by HimoKunHe's got you there NeutralMan. I've seen quite a few GL interviews, including that one in the DVD release, the History of SW stuff, and I don't recall him saying his inspiration solely came from Campbell and Hung slightly to the left...I mean Jung.
You have shown no hard facts that that is true. Show me a OFFICIAL Lucas statement and I will give you that he based it off of Campbell. But since you haven't, your argument is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Tangible God
He's got you there NeutralMan. I've seen quite a few GL interviews, including that one in the DVD release, the History of SW stuff, and I don't recall him saying his inspiration solely came from Campbell and Hung slightly to the left...I mean Jung.
Did I say solely? Oh and Jung would not be mentioned, but wee JC is CJ is not far behind.