]Nate Grey VS Phoenix[

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Exactly, lots of different options exist in Marvel, and thats the point. Yes he has some good idea but he has actually proved nothing. Your right and some of his ideas have no basis at all, except perhaps what GS wishes 🙂

No basis? If my ideas had no basis you woud have been able to shut me up a long time ago. Instead your clinging on to your cause arguing for the sake of arguing 😆

Your only argument is that the words TOAA havent been featured in the comic. That is a lame counter in light of the Phoenixes explicitly stated and shown connection with the Crown and a higher consciousness which resides in the crown. 🙄

Thats GS's interpretation in his essay

But nowhere does it say God? and thats the point.........

We have had Entropy create the Universe -
In the origin of Galactus one shot we saw him survive the death of his Universe and the new one created witout Phoenix.

Interpretation, poor continuity, assumption

🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Thats GS's interpretation in his essay

But nowhere does it say God? and thats the point.........

We have had Entropy create the Universe -
In the origin of Galactus one shot we saw him survive the death of his Universe and the new one created witout Phoenix.

Interpretation, poor continuity, assumption

🙂

I can copy and paste as well lol:

But Entropy creating the universe isnt current continuity. Phoenix doing so is and has been for the last 3 years thats all that matters. As for the origin of Galactus if you refer to the 2005 F4 handbook you'll see Phoenix is responsible for his creation.

Thats really all that matters.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Exactly, lots of different options exist in Marvel, and thats the point. Yes he has some good idea but he has actually proved nothing. Your right and some of his ideas have no basis at all, except perhaps what GS wishes 🙂

Neither side has proven or unproven anything...most(not all) is speculation, interpretation and deduction...the question is: who is more convincing?!

As an uberpowerful-psi-character-dispiser but Jean-as-a-human-liker i dare to say, that i'm probably near objectivness. Combined with my own observations, research and deductions i nonetheless find the pro-Phoenix side on this thread the more convincing!
✅

Originally posted by wannabe
I'm glad we agree! 🙂

Neither side has proven or unproven anything...most(not all) is speculation, interpretation and deduction...the question is: who is more convincing?!

As an uberpowerful-psi-character-dispiser but Jean-as-a-human-liker i dare to say, that i'm probably near objectivness. Combined with my own observations, research and deductions i nonetheless find the pro-Phoenix side on this thread the more convincing!
✅

And you are entitled to your opinion, I do not find GS's arguments very convincing. But I agree nothing has been proven 🙂 Its all speculation 🙂

Only one argument has been put forward and its not imo beyond reasonable doubt🙂 Like Michael Jackson no one knows, and nothing is proved one way or the other.

🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
And you are entitled to your opinion, I do not find GS's arguments very convincing. But I agree nothing has been proven 🙂 Its all speculation 🙂

Only one argument has been put forward and its not imo beyond reasonable doubt🙂 Like Michael Jackson no one knows, and nothing is proved one way or the other.

🙂

What is speculation? If someone in the comics talks about an elephant do you or do you not presume its the same as the creature we know?

The Crown by definition is where gods consciousness resides. A point where human consciousness can join with him in union. Jeans power is stated to derive from the Crown. When in the crown Jean and the other phoenixes are directed by a higher consciousness.

Whirly im sorry but theres so much evidence pointing towards the conclusions we've made. Your only defence is that the words TOAA havent been mentioned. In light of the fact that the Crown, tiphereth and white hot room are and are shown to function the same as they do according to real world principles your defence is weak. 😉

Originally posted by wannabe
I'm glad we agree! 🙂

Neither side has proven or unproven anything...most(not all) is speculation, interpretation and deduction...the question is: who is more convincing?!

As an uberpowerful-psi-character-dispiser but Jean-as-a-human-liker i dare to say, that i'm probably near objectivness. Combined with my own observations, research and deductions i nonetheless find the pro-Phoenix side on this thread the more convincing!
✅

Origin of 616 universe from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus

Originally named Galan (or Galen, the spelling differs on occasion), he hails from the planet Taa, and is the sole survivor of the Big Crunch of the previous universe in which Taa was located. A space explorer investigating the impending end of his universe, he approached the focal point of the Big Crunch and was transformed into a cosmic entity even as the universe collapsed. After the Big Bang of the current universe, to complete his transformation, Galactus was encased in a cosmic egg brimming with enormous energies. After billions of years, he emerged as an entity of vast cosmic power who was also necessary for the existence of the newly formed universe. Galactus is considered one of the five essential entities within the Marvel Universe alongside Eternity, the anthropomorphic personification of the universe, Death, Infinity and Oblivion.

😕

Wheres Phoenix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey

Endsong
Recently, the Shi'ar resurrected the Phoenix entity in hopes of destroying it while it was relatively weak. The entity managed to escape and fled to Earth, where it needed a host to sustain itself. After possessing a firefly and running into Wolverine, the entity resurrected Jean and bonded with her once more.

Jean Grey. Art by Greg Land.Jean realized that the Phoenix was resurrected too early and as a result was mentally unbalanced. She had a confrontation with the X-Men before teleporting Wolverine to the North Pole, where she had him stab her several times, leaving the Phoenix enity weakened and allowing her to once again gain control. Jean then plunged herself through the ice, freezing instantly. When the X-Men arrived, Wolverine told them that Jean was "dead. Or as close as she can get."

When the Phoenix entity returned from the ice, she possessed Emma Frost as the new love to Scott Summers' life. As Emma struggled against the force, a hopeless Scott prayed for Jean's return. With no other choice, Scott freed Jean from the ice. After Jean once again bonded with the Phoenix entity, the X-Men discovered the true reason for her return. Emma called out telepathically to her Stepford Cuckoos and focused the empathic impressions of all Jean's dearest friends. She felt their love for her. This allowed both Jean and the Phoenix to achieve balance before returning to the cosmos. Parting from Scott, she asked one last request before leaving, to see his eyes.

I rest my case

I love cut and paste 🙂

Keep the faith🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Origin of 616 universe from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus

Originally named Galan (or Galen, the spelling differs on occasion), he hails from the planet Taa, and is the sole survivor of the Big Crunch of the previous universe in which Taa was located. A space explorer investigating the impending end of his universe, he approached the focal point of the Big Crunch and was transformed into a cosmic entity even as the universe collapsed. After the Big Bang of the current universe, to complete his transformation, Galactus was encased in a cosmic egg brimming with enormous energies. After billions of years, he emerged as an entity of vast cosmic power who was also necessary for the existence of the newly formed universe. Galactus is considered one of the five essential entities within the Marvel Universe alongside Eternity, the anthropomorphic personification of the universe, Death, Infinity and Oblivion.

😕

Wheres Phoenix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey

Endsong
Recently, the Shi'ar resurrected the Phoenix entity in hopes of destroying it while it was relatively weak. The entity managed to escape and fled to Earth, where it needed a host to sustain itself. After possessing a firefly and running into Wolverine, the entity resurrected Jean and bonded with her once more.

Jean Grey. Art by Greg Land.Jean realized that the Phoenix was resurrected too early and as a result was mentally unbalanced. She had a confrontation with the X-Men before teleporting Wolverine to the North Pole, where she had him stab her several times, leaving the Phoenix enity weakened and allowing her to once again gain control. Jean then plunged herself through the ice, freezing instantly. When the X-Men arrived, Wolverine told them that Jean was "dead. Or as close as she can get."

When the Phoenix entity returned from the ice, she possessed Emma Frost as the new love to Scott Summers' life. As Emma struggled against the force, a hopeless Scott prayed for Jean's return. With no other choice, Scott freed Jean from the ice. After Jean once again bonded with the Phoenix entity, the X-Men discovered the true reason for her return. Emma called out telepathically to her Stepford Cuckoos and focused the empathic impressions of all Jean's dearest friends. She felt their love for her. This allowed both Jean and the Phoenix to achieve balance before returning to the cosmos. Parting from Scott, she asked one last request before leaving, to see his eyes.

I rest my case

I love cut and paste 🙂

Keep the faith🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Well that helps with my theory about a seperate sentient entity calling itself the Phoenix force, that's possibly seperate from the actual phoenix force itself. . .

But it also shows those entities as being universal figures. . . which would explain why they're not constants when it comes time to reset creation. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
Well that helps with my theory about a seperate sentient entity calling itself the Phoenix force, that's possibly seperate from the actual phoenix force itself. . .

But it also shows those entities as being universal figures. . . which would explain why they're not constants when it comes time to reset creation. . .

In Galens 616 Phoenix didn't do it 🙂 Claremonts senility is hilarious and it means a big continuity problem and not retcon...... Its like half the things John Byrne did to the vision. Sad and funny.

Now my use of references is different they are open to people interpretation 🙂

Oh and as for the "White room"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey

Here Comes Tomorrow
Jean was then resurrected in the last arc of New X-Men: "Here Comes Tomorrow", bearing the Phoenix entity once again. This future timeline went wrong when Scott Summers decided to decline the offer of Emma Frost to once again open up Xavier's Institute. Hank McCoy then takes up the dubious burden of re-opening the school and under the pressure, begins taking the drug “Kick”. The villain John Sublime possesses Hank McCoy through “Kick” and he is insane by it. Jean comes in time to stop Hank from destroying the world with the Phoenix. She then transcends into the “White Room” with all the other Phoenix hosts, but not before sending her husband Scott Summers a mental push to accept Emma Frost’s offer and affections.

Somehow knowing her fate before she died, she made a holoempathic imprint of her full essence, and everything that she was, for her daughter, Rachel "Grey" Summers. She did this so that no matter what happened to her body, her soul would always be with Rachel

Nothing about God, TOAA etc at all

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Origin of 616 universe from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus

Originally named Galan (or Galen, the spelling differs on occasion), he hails from the planet Taa, and is the sole survivor of the Big Crunch of the previous universe in which Taa was located. A space explorer investigating the impending end of his universe, he approached the focal point of the Big Crunch and was transformed into a cosmic entity even as the universe collapsed. After the Big Bang of the current universe, to complete his transformation, Galactus was encased in a cosmic egg brimming with enormous energies. After billions of years, he emerged as an entity of vast cosmic power who was also necessary for the existence of the newly formed universe. Galactus is considered one of the five essential entities within the Marvel Universe alongside Eternity, the anthropomorphic personification of the universe, Death, Infinity and Oblivion.

😕

Wheres Phoenix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey

Endsong
Recently, the Shi'ar resurrected the Phoenix entity in hopes of destroying it while it was relatively weak. The entity managed to escape and fled to Earth, where it needed a host to sustain itself. After possessing a firefly and running into Wolverine, the entity resurrected Jean and bonded with her once more.

Jean Grey. Art by Greg Land.Jean realized that the Phoenix was resurrected too early and as a result was mentally unbalanced. She had a confrontation with the X-Men before teleporting Wolverine to the North Pole, where she had him stab her several times, leaving the Phoenix enity weakened and allowing her to once again gain control. Jean then plunged herself through the ice, freezing instantly. When the X-Men arrived, Wolverine told them that Jean was "dead. Or as close as she can get."

When the Phoenix entity returned from the ice, she possessed Emma Frost as the new love to Scott Summers' life. As Emma struggled against the force, a hopeless Scott prayed for Jean's return. With no other choice, Scott freed Jean from the ice. After Jean once again bonded with the Phoenix entity, the X-Men discovered the true reason for her return. Emma called out telepathically to her Stepford Cuckoos and focused the empathic impressions of all Jean's dearest friends. She felt their love for her. This allowed both Jean and the Phoenix to achieve balance before returning to the cosmos. Parting from Scott, she asked one last request before leaving, to see his eyes.

I rest my case

I love cut and paste 🙂

Keep the faith🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Wikipedia like the marvel directory is extremely outdated for info on comics. They still go by the retcon phoenix origin for example and as youre about to find out the now redundant galactus orign:

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
In Galens 616 Phoenix didn't do it 🙂 Claremonts senility is hilarious and it means a big continuity problem and not retcon...... Its like half the things John Byrne did to the vision. Sad and funny.

Now my use of references is different they are open to people interpretation 🙂

We need to find a way to differentiate the sentient entity that called itself - wait. . . That's Phoenix 2 . . . So P2 is seperate from the PF then. . . hmm . . .

Saved by the Phoenix force of the dying universe?

The sentient energy. . . hmm . .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wikipedia like the marvel directory is extremely outdated for info on comics. They still go by the retcon phoenix origin for example and as youre about to find out the now redundant galactus orign:

That is not in the Marvel Directory or Wiki or the Galactus one shot please post the source 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
That is not in the Marvel Directory or Wiki or the Galactus one shot please post the source 🙂

Youre not that stupid Whirly 😂

I stated Wik and MD were outdated then i showed you a scan from the most recent handbook. 🙄

So where does it mention God or the one above all in relation to Phoenix it just says the Phoenix Force of the Dying Universe, do you have the Phoenix scan from the most up to date handbook 🙂

Oh and you "scanned" it how........

Phoenix 2 was the sentient energy being that assumed Jean Grey's identity and later became Dark Phoenix.

Phoenix 4 is Jean grey who was Marvel Girl that is the phoenix of the white crown.

That's the problem, Phoenix 2 was calling itself the Phoenix force as well. . .

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
So where does it mention God or the one above all in relation to Phoenix it just says the Phoenix Force of the Dying Universe, do you have the Phoenix scan from the most up to date handbook 🙂

Oh and you "scanned" it how........

I never scanned it. I downloaded it a few weeks ago so it was already in digital form. 😄

Remember im going Egypt tomorrow otherwise id see about downloading all of my evidence to enlighten you about Phoenix as i just have with Galactus. 😮

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never scanned it. I downloaded it a few weeks ago so it was already in digital form. 😄

Remember im going Egypt tomorrow otherwise id see about downloading all of my evidence to enlighten you about Phoenix as i just have with Galactus. 😮

Show me where it says Phoenix is TOAA or Gods power 🙂

You can't and we both know it GS.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Phoenix 2 was the sentient energy being that assumed Jean Grey's identity and later became Dark Phoenix.

Phoenix 4 is Jean grey who was Marvel Girl that is the phoenix of the white crown.

That's the problem, Phoenix 2 was calling itself the Phoenix force as well. . .

Dark Phoenix was Jean i'll explain everything when i get back from Egypt. Jean was born as Phoenix she just didnt know she herself was phoenix until recently. When Jean was in the space shuttle her phoenix self appeared to her. Go the Xmen forum look at the Jean Grey/ Phoenix thread and read my posts.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by wannabe
#1) The Phoenixforce is shapeless and not an entity. This energy does not need a shape to bring a universe into another cycle...which is a natural process.
The avatars are there only to correct, eliminate or recreate something that has gone wrong!
Combining both facts you will certainly have no Phoenix-bird hovering over the last big bang of 616.

#2)What did you want to prove in your "case" with the Endsong story?

Good point it said nothing about Phoenix ending or starting the Universe niether did the handbook scan of Galactus GS put up it only said it filled the egg, so your saying GS is wrong and it doesn't end or start universes. It only repairs them Its like the cosmic plumber Phoenix Mario.