Re: "Do Christians have free will or they are fated to follow the bible ?"
Originally posted by debbiejo
Idea from Atlantis001.......................
If you don't want to believe in the Bible, I don't think you will. Just because you're fated for something, doesn't mean you don't have free will, nor that your fate ain't because of it.
You are as fated to follow the Bible as you are being homosexual. That comparison made, just because you're fated to something, doesn't mean you can't make active free-will choices along the way.
Believing every action you make is fated however, that puts a twist to things. That I can't imagine anyone belives though, for if everything is decided, why create it in the first place? You create something you know how it'll progress and end.
Can't be for entertainment either, since knowing what'll happen kinda remove the entertainment.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]You are as fated to follow the Bible as you are being homosexual. That comparison made, just because you're fated to something, doesn't mean you can't make active free-will choices along the way.
People are genetically predestined to follow the Bible? I don't see the comparison.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Believing every action you make is fated however, that puts a twist to things. That I can't imagine anyone belives though, for if everything is decided, why create it in the first place? You create something you know how it'll progress and end.
It's a common objection to omniscience. If God "knows" that you're going to open door number three then there are limited options:
1) You apply free will and open a different door, which means God was wrong.
2) You can only open door number three, which means you don't have free will.
And if God knows everything then this applies to every event.
Ah, I see we view the origin of homosexuality differently. Lets scratch that comparison then.
Doesn't God display flawed sight, though? Thinking of scenarios like Cain and Abel or the serpent in Eden (Which birth the question: If it wasn't Eve's choice to eat the apple, but something already decided by Him, why banish them?)
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Doesn't God display flawed sight, though? Thinking of scenarios like Cain and Abel or the serpent in Eden (Which birth the question: If it wasn't Eve's choice to eat the apple, but something already decided by Him, why banish them?)
Yes, however God being able to do anything is a big part of Christian doctrine.
Like having to take the rib of Adam to create Eve. This is digressing from the point, however, which is that even if you're fated to follow the Bible, that doesn't exclude the possibility that you can make active free-will choices along the way.
I've seen, and I'm not the only one, devoted Christians do sin. I don't think there's a single living being on our planet that hasn't gone against at least one sin, minor or whatever.
Does this imply, then, that humans ain't fated to be Christian? If a life according to the Bible has been decided devoted Christians, then we must've gotten the wrong Bible.
We aren't the people the Bible ask us to be.
Do you see my point?
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Like having to take the rib of Adam to create Eve. This is digressing from the point, however, which is that even if you're fated to follow the Bible, that doesn't exclude the possibility that you can make active free-will choices along the way.
This is the Ancient Greek concept of free will/fate.
You have free will from moment to moment, but the ultimate outcome is already predetermined and can never be avoided. Sort of like having a labyrinth where fifty different paths lead to the end.
I would still count that as not really having free will since the only decisions you get to make are trivial ones.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
I've seen, and I'm not the only one, devoted Christians do sin. I don't think there's a single living being on our planet that hasn't gone against at least one sin, minor or whatever.
Thus no one has ever been fated to follow the Bible. Plain and simple. If you can do otherwise then you're not fated to do it.
Well, we're all going to die, so in that sense we have our fate sealed. This is a logical statement, and not one of faith. It still ends up with any choice we make being trivial. My point with bringing it up, is that it more or less remove the difference between common life and Christianity. If you have a fated outcome, but control of your actions until the final stage, logic dictate that you have free will.
I realize that what I just wrote appear a little weird, so I'll try simplify: By being born, we're cursed with the impending embrace of death. How's being fated for the hellfire or heaven any different? There's a spiritual different, but from a strictly objective perspective, end is end.
This would mean that an atheist as as little free will as these Christians.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Well, we're all going to die, so in that sense we have our fate sealed. This is a logical statement, and not one of faith. It still ends up with any choice we make being trivial.
Not a good comparison. Most of the decisions you make in life are not ones that can be said to contribute to your death. Besides, death is not a choice.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
I realize that what I just wrote appear a little weird, so I'll try simplify: By being born, we're cursed with the impending embrace of death. How's being fated for the hellfire or heaven any different? There's a spiritual different, but from a strictly objective perspective, end is end.This would mean that an atheist as as little free will as these Christians.
I haven't ever argued that atheists have what I would consider free will. I don't think anyone does, but I don't believe that has anything to do with deities moving us on strings.
That's kinda my point. Death ain't a choice. You can't decide to be a perfect Christian and follow through (It's psychologically impossible), as such can't decide to go to Heaven.
I suppose my point was a little unclear: The argument about if Christians being fated to follow the Bible, what I meant was that God does not really appear to care much about the journey, mostly just about the ending.
In that sense, it's no more fated than the common death of an atheist. You can all make free choices along the way. That's to me the only reasonable explanation to why God gets angry in the Bible.
To assume Christians don't have free will simply because they follow the Bible is silly. They aren't being forced to follow it, it's a set of guidelines.
We cannot go around killing people and stealing things or we would get thrown into jail. Does that mean no one has free will? Of course not! It simply means that if you don't want to go to jail, you will use your free will to choose not to kill people. In the same way, if you want to get into heaven, you will use your free will to choose to follow the guidelines and rules that are necessary to do so.
If we say that Free will is lost by simply following the rules, then NO ONE has free will, as we all follow rules on a daily basis.