Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Still, Sidious was strong in the Force to cloak his identity from beings such as Yoda and Mace. A feat, Nai Fohl - that you should not dismiss. Especially if the great Exar Kun has performed it. It is a spectacular talent and an example of how powerful Sidious was in the Force.
Yeah, a spectacular talent that people have done before. The only thing spectacular is how much of a pansy Sidious is/was.
Darth Sidious isn't as powerful as some of the Sith Lords on that list, but he is still the greatest. Like Exar Kun, he fought a war with the Jedi. Exar lost his war, Sidious won. If Sidious wasn't on the list, I would've picked Kun, but for this previous reason, Sidious is greater, even though he's not quite as powerful.
Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith for 150 years, he did not rule the galaxy. Sidious remains the only Sith to have conquered the known galaxy.
Precisely.
Illustrious, Sidious was a coward. I've said this on countless occasions, and everyone has said it. Still, I don't know why you all hate him and dismiss him as you do. Sidious still did accomplish what no other Sith ever did before him - and likely what no other Sith will do again. He is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, like it or not for what he did. And I will continue to defend him until you all respect him for doing what Exar did NOT do. What Marka did NOT do. Revan did NOT do. Naga did NOT do.
And please don't gimme that "well at least they fought a war and were brave." Oh well. I consent to the fact that Revan, Kun, Marka, and so many others were braver than Sidious. But that doesn't excuse them. He conquered the galaxy - more than they ever did.
But yes. He was a pansy. And sadly, perhaps the greatest of all of them.
I simply don't get it why some of you rate Sidious the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords ?
1)
Some of the Sith didn't ever want to conquer the galaxy. Ragnos didn't want to do so, Nadd didn't want to do so. Ragnos wanted to keep the Sith Empire away from the Republic and managed to do that for more than a century. Nadd wanted to conquer Onderon, did it on his own and influenced the planet for more than 400 years.
2)
Sidious did never control the entire galaxy - only Republic space. And well he did that for 13 years as Chancellor and another 19 years as Emperor. So he "reigned" for 32 years. Now compare that to Ragnos who ruled his own Empire (not as big as the Republic but wealthier and filled with Dark Siders) for more than a century.
3)
Sidious did - at least - fail because of a single Jedi Knight or let us say: Like all other Sith before he died because of betrayal. Sadow was stopped by betrayal (Gav Daragon), Kun was (Ulic Quel-Droma), Revan was (Malak). But the difference is that Sidious was at least killed by a guy in a life-support-system-suit that had only 80 % of his power while all other Sith needed entire armies of force users to stop them (Nadd and Kun at least). So the fact that Sidious was not strong enough to defend himself in an age in which Dooku had the ability to toy around with Anakin + Obi-Wan makes him weak in my eyes.
You have to understand that no one has ruled the ENTIRE galaxy. Even during his reign as Emperor, Sidious owned Republic Space, and had little to no influence past the mid rim.
During Ragnos' time, he had the Sith Empire, and the Republic was a seperate entity. Both would claim they ruled the "galaxy" as they domineered over their corner of it. Just like during the Empire, the Hutt space was practically untouched by the influence of Sidious.
So while Sidious "conquered" the galaxy, he didn't rule over the entire portion, and it really isn't any more impressive than Ragnos ruling over the mighty Sith Empire for over a century.
Lol, Nai, if someone hadn't seen Return of the Jedi - I'm pretty sure you would have convinced them to think the Emperor weak. So let us look at the facts, shall we?
Sidious was torturing Luke at the time. Luke rejected the Emperor's promise of power and of the Dark Side. So the Emperor began to kill him. Slowly - stopping every now and then to gloat - as if he were then teaching Luke a lesson. Vader was indeed in a life support system. But let's not forget that that suit gave him incredible endurance and superhuman strength (left that tid-bit out, didn't you).
Sidious was honed in - completely submerged in the glee of torturing Luke. Vader stood a little off to the side. Sidious didn't even give Vader a glance as soon as he focused on Luke. So. Vader grabs Sidious and chucks him over the side.
Lo and behold - Vader dies in the process via Force lightning from Sidious. Now. Vader caught Sidious off guard and still died in the process. You might credit Sidious being caught off guard is a weakness. Amazing how you don't seem to think the same when Yoda was "caught off guard" via Palpatine's lightning in Revenge of The Sith.
Also. The prophecy - like it or not - is instituted heavily here. Sidious was meant to die at Anakin's hands - or in this case - hand. And he did. And he died in the process - and Luke got his insides fried.
Sidious doesn't seem weak to me.
Illustrious, Ragnos's reign of the Sith Empire is impressive. You say so yourself, correct? And you just stated that Sidious's reign over the galaxy isn't any MORE impressive. So that means you ought to respect Sidious as much as you do Ragnos, for conquering the galaxy. And yet you do not.
And - Sidious dared to dream of conquering it all. And he did. But no rule is absolute. Every empire had pockets of rebellion in it. Revan's empire did - (with Malak). Malak rebelled against Revan and tried to kill him. No rule nor any reign is total.
Not even in real life. Otherwise you wouldn't have any law breakers.
He couldn't sense the betrayel of Darth Vader that much is for sure, and i'm pretty sure Vader would be conflicted as hell during the process his emotions would have been screaming in his head. Palpatine his failure to read it, is a failure that a true Sith should not let happen. Especially not one that relies on his minors to do most of the work.
Yoda however is a different situation he didn't know what to expect a surprise attack like that could not have been seen coming he should have blocked it but he didn't, a failure on his part but nothing to bad. Palpatine fell back because of a push not much later so we could say the same thing about Palpatine again.
You're telling me that Yoda -- who is the wisest of all the Jedi Masters -- did not expect an attack from Sidious -- who was a Sith Lord?? And I guess the whole...
Palpatine: (SLOWLY raising hands): Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. You haven't witnessed the power of the Dark Side. Until now.
-Yoda is sent flying across the room, nearly unconscious, thanks to Palpatine's lightning-
Um...yeah...okay. Wow. BIG failure on Yoda's part.
And once more. Sidious was focused on torturing Luke. He didn't even acknowledge Vader when he began his assault.
So, how is Yoda's failure worse? Yoda did not know what to expect, I admitted that it was a failure on his part but not as bad as you make it out to be.
And Yoda send Palpatine flying the other way just seconds later, when the fight was already started. Palpatine should have expected that as well.
And Sidious focusing on Luke is a incredibly big mistake, he should have known better he didn't, he became arrogant and foolish on his old age, pathetic compared to what he once was, he deserved to die.
No. Palpatine's attack on Yoda was greater than Yoda's attack. If you will recall, Yoda's assault pushed Palpatine across the room. Palpatine got up seconds later and tried to flee - the coward that he is. Yoda took a hit that nearly knocked him unconscious.
And Palpatine is very arrogant. I know that. It's one of his chief weaknesses. But do not dismiss him because he is a coward. He brought an end to the Republic that apparently - indirectly or otherwise - triumphed over the Sith Lords of old.
You are so wrong there... Palpatine his attack did not knock out Yoda or almost, Yoda lay on the ground his eyes opened he waited then he jumped up and pushed Palpatine away. Palpatine should have been able to block that attack far much easier then Yoda should have blocked Palpatine his attack and yet still you laugh at Yoda.
So he's arrogant and he's a coward, and then at the moment he should doubt the loyalty's of Vader most he trusts him. He already knew that Vader was conflicted he saw the fight happen, why the hell did he trust him? Becuase he's an idiot, really if he was that good he would not have done that. He couldn't have.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lol, Nai, if someone hadn't seen Return of the Jedi - I'm pretty sure you would have convinced them to think the Emperor weak. So let us look at the facts, shall we?
Haha...yes...
Sidious was torturing Luke at the time. Luke rejected the Emperor's promise of power and of the Dark Side. So the Emperor began to kill him. Slowly - stopping every now and then to gloat - as if he were then teaching Luke a lesson. Vader was indeed in a life support system. But let's not forget that that suit gave him incredible endurance and superhuman strength (left that tid-bit out, didn't you).
Woah. The fact that Sidious used lightning against Luke for more than 30 seconds total and Luke jumped up after this and carried Vader through half of the Death Star says a lot about Sidious "strength within the force".
And now compare 87 or 88 year old Sidious in ROTJ to 83 year old Dooku in ROTS and tell me who is more powerful. Dooku would have toasted ROTJ Luke with one hand while cutting Vader into little pieces with the other.
Sidious was honed in - completely submerged in the glee of torturing Luke. Vader stood a little off to the side. Sidious didn't even give Vader a glance as soon as he focused on Luke. So. Vader grabs Sidious and chucks him over the side.
Stupid enough. So basically you trying to tell me that the greatest Sith Lord ever is not only totally carried away by his emotions (torturing Luke) but is also a dumbass (not having a look at Vader in a situation he KNEW Vader would maybe save his son). How dumb must a Sith be to turn his back on his apprentice while killing the apprentices son ?
Lo and behold - Vader dies in the process via Force lightning from Sidious. Now. Vader caught Sidious off guard and still died in the process. You might credit Sidious being caught off guard is a weakness. Amazing how you don't seem to think the same when Yoda was "caught off guard" via Palpatine's lightning in Revenge of The Sith.
Vader died in the process via Force lightning because that stuff toasted his life support system. Great deal.
Sidious doesn't seem weak to me.
Movie Sidious compared to people who can blow stars up with their powers seems pretty weak to me.
Illustrious, Ragnos's reign of the Sith Empire is impressive. You say so yourself, correct? And you just stated that Sidious's reign over the galaxy isn't any MORE impressive. So that means you ought to respect Sidious as much as you do Ragnos, for conquering the galaxy. And yet you do not.
The reign in and of itself is more impressive, but that doesn't make him more powerful, or greater, or the best -- you have to look at the circumstances.
As for not respecting Sidious as much as Ragnos, that's clearly because Ragnos is far more powerful. The information we have on Ragnos makes it clear he is the Dark Lord of the Sith, the very pinnacle of the Ancient Sith Empire filled with powerful dark side force users, including individuals like Naga Sadow, who could blow up stars; Simus, who could keep his head alive in a jar; and Ludo Kressh, who was a powerful Sith in his own right. Sidious 'ruled' over one Sith Apprentice, an Apprentice that likely wouldn't even be up to "Sith Lord" rank in the old Empire, and he didn't have to contend with the Jedi, as they had been stupidly blinded by their own arrogance -- the novelization even has Yoda admitting this.
Face it, Sidious took advantage of the circumstances, NO ONE in the Jedi Order had seen a Sith up until Maul, they had no reason to suspect Palpatine was a Sith Lord. For individuals like Kun, Revan, Ragnos, Sadow, the Republic had EVERY REASON to be concerned.
And - Sidious dared to dream of conquering it all. And he did. But no rule is absolute. Every empire had pockets of rebellion in it. Revan's empire did - (with Malak). Malak rebelled against Revan and tried to kill him. No rule nor any reign is total.
In this regard, Ragnos' Empire was more total in its reign. He ruled with an iron fist.
And Palpatine is very arrogant. I know that. It's one of his chief weaknesses. But do not dismiss him because he is a coward. He brought an end to the Republic that apparently - indirectly or otherwise - triumphed over the Sith Lords of old.
It wasn't the SAME republic. That Old Republic had thousands upon thousands of Jedi WARRIORS. When Sadow came around, they launched a massive armada to counter him, and Sadow was defeated only by betrayal. With Kun, they sent thousands of Jedi to beat him. With the Battle of Ruusan, they again sent thousands of Jedi.
How many Jedi did they send to confront Palpatine? 4, and the only decent one was Mace Windu. Awesome "army" there, isn't it?
Agreed. Man, I will pick this apart later when I'm not at work...
But the prophecy... Pwned. I pwned that thing a LONG time ago.
For one, Somebody, while GL says he is the chosen one, and that the chosen one must restore balance to the Force, he never says how. If anything, he says that much and leads us to believe that (If we think outside of the box, as he asks us to) Anakin may NOT be the chosen one. If anything he tips the scales further into darkness, out of harmony. And it is Luke's actions that bring about balance, really. Meh, more on this when people aren't ****ing calling me left and right.
And Palpatine expended the Jedi by manipulating them all into fighting a war. See, Palpatine was a master of wars. Not fighting them, per say. But thanks to him -- the Jedi Order was in a far worse state then it had ever been -- and he ruled the galaxy.
And Fishy, lol, Palpatine's methods were far smarter than even Revan's. So no. He's not an idiot. Perhaps senile and insane - but far from stupid.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And Palpatine expended the Jedi by manipulating them all into fighting a war. See, Palpatine was a master of wars. Not fighting them, per say. But thanks to him -- the Jedi Order was in a far worse state then it had ever been -- and he ruled the galaxy.And Fishy, lol, Palpatine's methods were far smarter than even Revan's. So no. He's not an idiot. Perhaps senile and insane - but far from stupid.
Now...greatness as it's best:
- letting yourself being elected to be the chancellor. Cool...none of the Sith Lords before Sidious could have done that because they were fallen Jedi and therefore known to the Republic / Jedi.
- letting a bunch of clones and the most powerful force user ever takei down Jedi in a suprise attack
- declare yourself to be the Emperor supported by people that you have talked into supporting you for more than a decade.
Hmmm...lol....mention that Sidious:
a) Didn't kill all Jedi (failure No. 1)
b) Let his apprentice getting mortaly wounded thereby making him quite useless (failure No. 2)
c) Let Skywalker being trained (failure No. 3)
d) Assign Vader on the mission to kill / convert Skywalker - knowing that he would more likely join his son or utilize him to destroy Sidious than leave him under his control. (failure No. 4)
e) While the confrontation of them let himself getting carried away by his emotions (failure No. 5)
f) Because all of his failures getting his ass kicked after 19 years of "ruling the republic space" (not galaxy).
Well...conclusion: Sidious failed because of his own dumbness, incompetence and the failures he made while all other people just failed because of betrayal which they couldn't prevent while Sidious had multiple chances to do so (kill Vader and take a new apprentice, find and kill Obi-Wan and / or Yoda, find and kill Luke etc.).
So please: Don't tell me again he was the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords.