No. Sidious does not suck.
Kreia was good, I will and have admitted. She and Sidious would make a lovely couple - if they wouldn't be plotting endlessly against one another. Achilles, Sidious does not suck - and that is amazingly biased of you to say.
Sidious manipulated the Republic. The Separatists. The politicians. The Rebels. The Empire. Vader. Dooku. Obi-Wan. Yoda. Mace. All of them. They were pawns - like it or not - to him.
He is a mastermind and a manipulator of a legendary status.
Illustrious. I did admit - and have so on several occasions - that the methods Sidious used were not great. But his goal was. And he was the only Sith to ever conquer the Republic. So please do not act like I have not. Sidious did conquer the Republic. A feat Revan never accomplished and a feat that Ragnos never did.
The Republic is not the entire galaxy, you said earlier he conquered the galaxy itself. Even as Emperor, he had very little power outside the mid rim.
As for the other two accomplishing it. WOW! You mean Sidious can accomplish more than a Dark Lord that wasn't even trying? Or a Sith Lord that had the Galaxy on its knees before he was betrayed? Amazing.
Sidious is up there. Like it or not. Hate him or not. In terms of affects on the galaxy - he is far ahead from anyone else.
Laughable. His affects had no where near the effects of individuals from the Ancient Sith. Had they not been around, none of the Sith would be. Individuals like Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Pall, Kressh all had far greater effects on later generations than Sidious. Where was Sidious' influence in the NJO, for example?
He is great. One of the greatest - if not the. Moreso than Revan, I'm afraid. Ragnos is his only competition.
Since when do you tell others what to think? And you're saying I was being arrogant, please.
Illustrious - it is also widely speculated that it was because of Sidious that the Jedi's ability to use the Force diminished so rapidly. Proof does indeed indicate that he is worthy of legendary status in terms of ability. I also do not grossly over-estimate Sidious. I have, time and time again openly admitted Sidious's weaknesses. His arrogance and cowardice are two of his biggest crippling traits. But he is a master manipulator.
The Hitler comparison is healthy and understandable. Hitler was a very powerful speaker. His enemies - even to this day - recognize Hitler as a very dangerous person. I do not agree with Hitler - nor do I admire him. But he was easily one of the most influential and most important figures of modern history - and is the poster child for evil and ruthlessness.
Sidious and he are alike in many ways. But Sidious did what no other has done. He ended the Republic. He then created the most powerful tyrannical regime the galaxy had ever known.
He has a list of accomplishments not worthy of the dismissal and lack of respect that you give him. You give Revan more credit than Sidious. I will also admit that Revan is stronger and braver than Sidious. But in the terms of actual accomplishments - he isn't much.
Revan was indeed trying to conquer the Republic. Perhaps not to rule it, but his goal was to conquer them so he could utilize them against his enemies. In order to do so, he needed to defeat them. And he did not. At the same time, Sidious was in control of the galaxy and likely would have stayed that way had there not been a last betrayal on Vader's part as well. So what is it that you're implying?
And yes, I did say he conquered the galaxy. He was the undisputed ruler of it. As I also said earlier - no rule is absolute. No one but the Rebellion ever tried to take down the Empire. Explain to me why that is so.
Achilles. Ragnos ruled an empire, yes. A powerful empire, yes. But he didn't control a sliver of what Sidious did - in terms of area. Quality and quantity are different. Ragnos had the advantage - perhaps in quality. But in quantity - Sidious controlled the most for the longest.
I will continue to argue this time and time again. Most dismiss Sidious as weak, un-intelligent, and unworthy of any respect or a status of legend. But he did conquer the Republic. No one else did it. Say what you will, but it is true.
1) Who conquered the Republic?
Sidious. Damn. I was hoping someone would argue that he didn't. Lo and behold - no one can.
2) Who ruled the galaxy?
Sidious. He may not have controlled it all - but he was the dominant force in it that only the Rebellion dared to dispute. And even they knew they couldn't defeat the Empire one-on-one.
3) Who created the GALACTIC Empire?
Sidious. The Star Wars site refers to it as the most powerful regime in the galaxy's history. Surprise, surprise, Sidious was in charge of it.
4) Who engineered the ruin of the Jedi Order?
Sidious. Thanks to him, the Jedi Order was obliterated. The only survivers had to flee. They knew this was a battle that they couldn't win. Yoda fleed. Obi-Wan did as well.
5) Who orchestrated two major galactic wars?
Sidious. The wars were started and manipulated by him. He won the first and lost the second. A mistake, I will admit.
6) Who managed to share the same planet as the entire Jedi Order and maintain undetected?
Sidious. Exar Kun did it. Cool. A trait that only two people - known - have possessed. And Kun is more powerful than Sidious. So that speaks a lot of Sidious's Force connection.
7) Who met face to face with the Jedi Masters and managed to walk out alive - and still in control of the Republic?
Sidious.
8) Who else has performed 1-3?
No one.
End. Of. Story.
Illustrious - it is also widely speculated that it was because of Sidious that the Jedi's ability to use the Force diminished so rapidly. Proof does indeed indicate that he is worthy of legendary status in terms of ability. I also do not grossly over-estimate Sidious. I have, time and time again openly admitted Sidious's weaknesses. His arrogance and cowardice are two of his biggest crippling traits. But he is a master manipulator.
He is a good manipulator, but that alone does not make you the best, or anywhere near the best, Sith.
The Hitler comparison is healthy and understandable. Hitler was a very powerful speaker. His enemies - even to this day - recognize Hitler as a very dangerous person. I do not agree with Hitler - nor do I admire him. But he was easily one of the most influential and most important figures of modern history - and is the poster child for evil and ruthlessness.
You didn't answer my question.
Would you consider Hitler a better man than Washington? Someone who can orate the stars into coming out for him vs. an individual that has that presence, he could lead anybody to jump off a cliff with him, and command over any room he enters. Would you consider Hitler a better man?
Sidious and he are alike in many ways. But Sidious did what no other has done. He ended the Republic. He then created the most powerful tyrannical regime the galaxy had ever known.
Most powerful? That's debatable. The Empire had 2 force users. The Sith Empire had thousands, potentially many, many more underlings. Sadow himself commanded the Massassi, for example, who were all very fearsome warriors. The Republic that went against Kun and Sadow were VASTLY different than the fragmented republic that Sidious conquered. The Republic then had a Jedi Order that served as warriors, where they could send thousands of Jedis to attack an individual -- like they did with Kun.
Sidious simply took advantage of a perfect niche, the Republic was so ignorant of the Sith, it were practically screaming "Hit me here."
He has a list of accomplishments not worthy of the dismissal and lack of respect that you give him. You give Revan more credit than Sidious. I will also admit that Revan is stronger and braver than Sidious. But in the terms of actual accomplishments - he isn't much.
The list is the BEST SITH. The Sith follow the ideology that power > everything else. Revan, held more personal power, and at the height of his campaign, had the empire on his knees until Malak backstabbed him. That doesn't mean Sidious wasn't great, that just means you're overestimating his greatness OR underestimating the greatness of ancient Sith.
Revan was indeed trying to conquer the Republic. Perhaps not to rule it, but his goal was to conquer them so he could utilize them against his enemies. In order to do so, he needed to defeat them. And he did not. At the same time, Sidious was in control of the galaxy and likely would have stayed that way had there not been a last betrayal on Vader's part as well. So what is it that you're implying?
"had there not been a last betrayal on Vader's part"? I could just as easily say "Revan would have conquered the galaxy had it not been for Malak." Revan nearly took the galaxy by force, Sadow and Kun as well, if not for betrayals as well. And you can argue that height of their power, they were greater than Sidious.
And yes, I did say he conquered the galaxy. He was the undisputed ruler of it. As I also said earlier - no rule is absolute. No one but the Rebellion ever tried to take down the Empire. Explain to me why that is so.
How many "rebellions" do you need to know that your rule was not absolute? The fact there was only 1 centralized rebellion doesn't prove anything. You're grasping at straws with this one.
Achilles. Ragnos ruled an empire, yes. A powerful empire, yes. But he didn't control a sliver of what Sidious did - in terms of area. Quality and quantity are different. Ragnos had the advantage - perhaps in quality. But in quantity - Sidious controlled the most for the longest.
Really?
Sidious controlled the core worlds, and most of the mid rim. He had very little power over places and the surrounding area of places like Endor, Hoth, Yavin, Hutt Space, Nar Shadda, the area of the Old Sith Empire (Korriban, Ziost, Malachor, etc.) Sidious didn't have direct control over MUCH of the Galaxy. In fact, past the mid rim, most of their lives were not touched at all with the changing of the regimes. Example: the Hutts still ruled Hutt space -- the republic, nor the Empire, changed any of that.
Face it, Sidious didn't have the galaxy; hell a large part of the galaxy is unexplored, and he sent people to do it. His grasp was large, but not as large as you try to make it out to be. That's what you call overrating.
And where the hell is your response to the influence question? Stop dodging points that puncture your argument.
This is from the Wikipedia site.
"In the fictional Star Wars universe, the First Galactic Empire was the regime established by Palpatine to replace the Galactic Republic. It consisted of over one million member worlds and fifty million colonies, protectorates and governorships." -- Wikipedia entry.
Wikipedia is a well-used source. It is impossible to say whether or not this information is legitimate, but nothing really conflicts with it. It does not give a world count for the Sith Empire. But Ragnos's Empire, it states, was beyond Revan's. And here's what it says about Ragnos's.
"The Sith Empire was far smaller than the Republic, but wealthier."
So. Even IF Sidious conquered ONLY the Republic - his Empire was indeed larger than the Sith version. Illustrious even said that the Sith Empire was smaller than the Republic.
So...nevermind. I did give you a world count Achilles.
Illustrious - no rule is absolute. How many times need I say that?
And. The Republic was the same. Sidious really had no true opposition other than the order. He was in control of the Separatists and the Republic. Revan, for all of his immense tactical brilliance, did not control both sides of the war.
Sidious did. Another remarkable accomplishment from him.
And I am sorry to say that as for your influence question, I am unaware. I didn't read much of the NJO series. I wasn't a fan of the Vong and I heard that there weren't any Sith Lords in it. So I didn't think it as a good read.
Lack of information on my part. I consent to you, because you are better informed than myself. But Sidious is a subject where I am very well informed.
To me, and as many sites indicate, he is a Sith Lord of immense skill and cunning. His manipulation skills are unrivaled - in the time at the very least. Wikipedia says he's the greatest. Star Wars official site hints at it - they don't state even Ragnos was the greatest. I dunno if he even has an entry.
Sidious's accomplishments - as Illustrious has proven - is not so easily dismissed. Not concrete but not so easily to evade.
Yeah, well wikipedia also talks about the most powerful Sith Lord ever, the Jawa dictator Lord Janus. Anyone can put anything they want in wikipedia. And are there even millions of worlds in the Star Wars universe? I was under the impression of hundreds of thousands but not millions. That sounds like a huge stretch to me.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Illustrious - no rule is absolute. How many times need I say that?And. The Republic was the same. Sidious really had no true opposition other than the order. He was in control of the Separatists and the Republic. Revan, for all of his immense tactical brilliance, did not control both sides of the war.
Sidious did. Another remarkable accomplishment from him.
And I am sorry to say that as for your influence question, I am unaware. I didn't read much of the NJO series. I wasn't a fan of the Vong and I heard that there weren't any Sith Lords in it. So I didn't think it as a good read.
Lack of information on my part. I consent to you, because you are better informed than myself. But Sidious is a subject where I am very well informed.
To me, and as many sites indicate, he is a Sith Lord of immense skill and cunning. His manipulation skills are unrivaled - in the time at the very least. Wikipedia says he's the greatest. Star Wars official site hints at it - they don't state even Ragnos was the greatest. I dunno if he even has an entry.
Sidious's accomplishments - as Illustrious has proven - is not so easily dismissed. Not concrete but not so easily to evade.
God, you love that Sidious, don't you? You need to get out more.
- The Republic was NOT the same, and I doubt you even know what the hell you're talking about. All I'm seeing from you is dodging Illustrious' excellent points and spouting off fanboyism.
- You're comparing Revan, Malak, Kun, Sadow's direct war with the Republic to Sidious' coup of the Republic. Different guidelines. In an age when Sith were extinct, the senate corrupt, the jedi complacent and no opposition to his power -within- the Sith underworld, whereas the former all fought to keep their positions from other Sith while fighting the Republic to completely control it. And their long lasting effects, the way their names were whispered in fear, reached much longer in time than did Sidious.
- "Wikipedia says he's the greatest". It says that abotu Yoda, Revan, Ragnos, Bob, Tom, and the cat. Please, don't cite bullshit. Better yet, don't post it either.
- Sidious' accomplishments somehow make him greater than all these others? Whatever. You are hopeless.
I have consent to the fact that Illustrious did indeed win the argument. He is much better informed than myself, but his word is not law nor does that make him - or you for that matter - right, Janus.
This is all mass speculation. Nothing more. There is no quote or no absolute statement declaring the greatest of the Sith Lords. Not Ragnos. Not Revan. Not Sidious.
It is my belief that Sidious is the greatest of the Sith for doing that which no other Sith Lord could do, but it is my belief. And you, Janus, may not tell me what to do or what to believe - and attempt to discredit me by calling me a fanboy.
Perhaps I am. Perhaps not. Still, your judgment isn't final. It is totally irrelevant to me. So, perhaps, you need to consider the fact that I simply don't CARE what you think?