Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now...greatness as it's best:- letting yourself being elected to be the chancellor. Cool...none of the Sith Lords before Sidious could have done that because they were fallen Jedi and therefore known to the Republic / Jedi.
- letting a bunch of clones and the most powerful force user ever takei down Jedi in a suprise attack
- declare yourself to be the Emperor supported by people that you have talked into supporting you for more than a decade.
Hmmm...lol....mention that Sidious:
a) Didn't kill all Jedi (failure No. 1)
b) Let his apprentice getting mortaly wounded thereby making him quite useless (failure No. 2)
c) Let Skywalker being trained (failure No. 3)
d) Assign Vader on the mission to kill / convert Skywalker - knowing that he would more likely join his son or utilize him to destroy Sidious than leave him under his control. (failure No. 4)
e) While the confrontation of them let himself getting carried away by his emotions (failure No. 5)
f) Because all of his failures getting his ass kicked after 19 years of "ruling the republic space" (not galaxy).Well...conclusion: Sidious failed because of his own dumbness, incompetence and the failures he made while all other people just failed because of betrayal which they couldn't prevent while Sidious had multiple chances to do so (kill Vader and take a new apprentice, find and kill Obi-Wan and / or Yoda, find and kill Luke etc.).
So please: Don't tell me again he was the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords.
A) Didn't kill all Jedi? He had ninty percent of them expired during the war. Still more than what any other Sith Lord has killed. Ragnos didn't kill all the Jedi. Revan didn't kill all the Jedi. So obviously this isn't something you can just pin on Sidious.
B) Amazing. Sidious sent Anakin to take care of the Trade Federation. He did not know Obi-Wan was going to show up and duel with him. Sidious may indeed be a master of foresight - but not even Yoda can predict such moves. Also, I seem to recall Sidious having his own battle with Yoda during this time. Not so much a failure as a victim of circumstance. Again, nice try.
C) Sidious wasn't aware of Padme's pregnancy. And if he was, he had probably deduced that her twins died during labor - along with the mother. He wasn't aware of Skywalker until the destruction of the Death Star.
D) He tried to rectify his mistake by sending Mara to slay Luke before Vader could get ahold of him again. I will consent that this is a failure. But Sidious wasn't perfect. Neither were any other Sith Lords. Hence their own inexorable defeats.
E) Last time I checked, Nai, a Sith gets his or her power from dealing in emotions. Sidious had a lot of hate in him, and enjoyed seeing Luke suffer. He was vindictive.
F) Getting his ass kicked? Hmmm. He fried Luke and killed Vader - albeit dying in the process. Revan - when he was betrayed - didn't do anything to Malak. So Revan got his ass kicked. Sidious didn't. And please, please please tell me where it says that Sidious controlled only Republic space? And even IF he did - it was a helluva a lot more than anyone else ruled. I kinda find it funny how you haven't seem to grasp that concept yet. Correction. It was FAR more than any other Sith has controlled.
In conclusion. Sidious failed because of a love between a father and a son, and a little prophecy that spelled out his inevitable demise. Yes, he made errors. I - unlike you Nai - am the first to admit when even my favorite character makes a mistake. I don't cover it up with "well, he did this wrong - BUT STILL...". Sidious made errors. End of the story. And yet, he still did more than any other Sith before him and any other Sith since him - it technically ENDED with Sidious, too.
And please. Don't tell me what to do. The majority of the proof supports me, Nai. Not you. Time for you to check those eyes of yours and have a stance similar to my own. I'm not completely biased. You are, actually, more so.
I compliment you on the argument however. I'm looking forward to what you have to say next.
A) Didn't kill all Jedi? He had ninty percent of them expired during the war. Still more than what any other Sith Lord has killed. Ragnos didn't kill all the Jedi. Revan didn't kill all the Jedi. So obviously this isn't something you can just pin on Sidious.
90% of all Jedi? The Jedi were dwindling as it were. Sidious had the intrinsic advantage of being clandestined. It was 1000 years since the Jedi encountered the Sith, there was not a Jedi alive that had ever faced one until Qui Gon did.
As for Revan not killing Jedi, he killed a hell of a lot more Jedi than Sidious did. How many Jedi did Sidious have confirmed kills on?
B) Amazing. Sidious sent Anakin to take care of the Trade Federation. He did not know Obi-Wan was going to show up and duel with him. Sidious may indeed be a master of foresight - but not even Yoda can predict such moves. Also, I seem to recall Sidious having his own battle with Yoda during this time. Not so much a failure as a victim of circumstance. Again, nice try.
It was his failure to kill Obi-Wan in the first place that caused Obi-Wan to go duel and hack up Anakin. Now you're going to say something along the lines of "The clone troopers didn't do their job," right?
C) Sidious wasn't aware of Padme's pregnancy. And if he was, he had probably deduced that her twins died during labor - along with the mother. He wasn't aware of Skywalker until the destruction of the Death Star.
So was he aware or wasn't he?
You say he wasn't, but then you say in the even he was, he deduced they were did. That doesn't show good debating, that shows indecisiveness in your own argument.
D) He tried to rectify his mistake by sending Mara to slay Luke before Vader could get ahold of him again. I will consent that this is a failure. But Sidious wasn't perfect. Neither were any other Sith Lords. Hence their own inexorable defeats.
Ragnos was never defeated, fact #1.
Revan may still have a shot.
And individuals like Sadow and Kun had absolutely no way to have stopped their betrayals. Then you add what they managed to accomplish on the side, and they clearly outrank Sidious.
E) Last time I checked, Nai, a Sith gets his or her power from dealing in emotions. Sidious had a lot of hate in him, and enjoyed seeing Luke suffer. He was vindictive.
No. Emotions are a doorway to power -- which is the ultimate things Sith want to achieve, but emotions do not HAVE TO pervade the individual, especially when they blind them to losing power.
F) Getting his ass kicked? Hmmm. He fried Luke and killed Vader - albeit dying in the process. Revan - when he was betrayed - didn't do anything to Malak. So Revan got his ass kicked. Sidious didn't. And please, please please tell me where it says that Sidious controlled only Republic space? And even IF he did - it was a helluva a lot more than anyone else ruled. I kinda find it funny how you haven't seem to grasp that concept yet. Correction. It was FAR more than any other Sith has controlled.
Revan got his ass kicked, right. That explains why Revan was still ALIVE and Sidious was DEAD. Right? That must explain some cloaked figure killing Malak later, right?
Sidious got his ass kicked by someone with one hand. Don't twist this around, he got thrown into a reactor core. He died, he was owned, he got his ass kicked, end of story. If you really believe individuals like Sadow, Ragnos, Revan, Kun, or Nadd would have been thrown down by Vader, you are daft.
I - unlike you Nai - am the first to admit when even my favorite character makes a mistake. I don't cover it up with "well, he did this wrong - BUT STILL...". Sidious made errors. End of the story. And yet, he still did more than any other Sith before him and any other Sith since him - it technically ENDED with Sidious, too.
You did admit he made errors? The only time you did that was in point "D", and even then, you had to add the snide remark that he made fewer errors than all the previous Sith, which ISN'T true.
And please. Don't tell me what to do. The majority of the proof supports me, Nai. Not you. Time for you to check those eyes of yours and have a stance similar to my own. I'm not completely biased. You are, actually, more so.
I suppose reading a few EU works does help this cause.
Illustrious. Are you saying when one gets one's ass kicked that one has to die? Lol. By Nai's definition, Sidious got his ass kicked. Sidious - at least - took Vader with him (via Force Lightning). Malak attacked Revan in a similar way. Vader knew he couldn't defeat Sidious one on one, so in order to save his son - he adapted a strategy like Sidious. Take the advantage. And so he did. Malak, did the same. The difference is that Vader died in the attempt to kill his master. Malak did too, just not at that time.
And need I remind you that Vader's one arm is stronger than most men's two?
Illustrious. Are you saying when one gets one's ass kicked that one has to die? Lol. By Nai's definition, Sidious got his ass kicked. Sidious - at least - took Vader with him (via Force Lightning). Malak attacked Revan in a similar way. Vader knew he couldn't defeat Sidious one on one, so in order to save his son - he adapted a strategy like Sidious. Take the advantage. And so he did. Malak, did the same. The difference is that Vader died in the attempt to kill his master. Malak did too, just not at that time.
No. Don't be daft. You are ignoring the one point that doesn't fit your argument: it doesn't matter if that one point is ridiculously critical, it only matters, apparently for you, that the one point is counterintuitive to your point.
Revan didn't DIE from Malak's betrayal, Sidious DIED because of Vader.
And need I remind you that Vader's one arm is stronger than most men's two?
And need I remind you that Naga Sadow's one hand is stronger than Vader's whole body? And Naga Sadow was one of 19 other Sith Lords, ALL OF THEM under Ragnos' feet. Sadow himself later kept a good number of Sith Lords in check as well.
Lol, if Sidious and Obi-Wan ever dueled - Sidious would grind him into dust. So yes. It was indeed the failure of the Clone Troopers to kill Obi-Wan.
No, it was his mistake. He grossly underestimated the abilities and effectiveness of Obi-Wan.
You can say all you want about "Obi-Wan would have been ground into dust," but the point is, he didn't kill Obi-Wan when he had the chance, and that same Obi-Wan maimed Anakin and trained Luke -- two key mistakes that led to his downfall. The fact he didn't even ATTEMPT to fight Obi-Wan means he's a cowardly bastard -- not a commendable feat.
Oh right, where is the rest of the debate? Did you pick apart the ONE object that I wasn't trying to argue you with? This is called Straw Man logical fallacy. So either cough off the rest of the argument, or stop trying to debate with me -- you're being quite boring.
Lol you remind me quite of Sidious. You do make good points, I will consent. But your arrogance is astounding. So. Tell me.
1. Are you dismissing Sidious's conquering of the galaxy - and I do not mean the methods - is a trivial matter unworthy of notification?
2. Are you also dismissing Sidious's unrivaled manipulating skills?
3. Are you implying in the slightest that despite all of his achievements, Sidious - Force powers, saber skills, manipulation skills, and overall effect on the galaxy is pathetic?
I will also admit to the fact that Revenge of The Sith totally ruined the character. Sidious - in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones - was always running the show. He manipulated the Republic and the Separatists. He also thoroughly deceived the entire Jedi Order. He shared a unique - not totally, mind you, but an excellent trait - ability to cloak himself from the Jedi.
Two of the biggest wars in galactic history were brought on and then manipulated by Sidious. His tactics spoke of extreme cowardice and unwillingness to take immense risks that jeoparadized his life.
But you would be lying - Illustrious - if you dismiss Sidious's achievements as nothing.
Lol you remind me quite of Sidious. You do make good points, I will consent. But your arrogance is astounding. So. Tell me.
What, you want me to lie that your logical fallacy is entertaining and filled with knowledge? No chance.
1. Are you dismissing Sidious's conquering of the galaxy - and I do not mean the methods - is a trivial matter unworthy of notification?
Would you consider Hitler as a greater figure than Washington simply because he had more zealots under his command? He did conquer the Republic, but you are GROSSLY underestimating the Sith Empire and its esteem as well as grossly overestimating the methods he used to conquer it.
2. Are you also dismissing Sidious's unrivaled manipulating skills?
Unrivaled? Ragnos and Sadow likely had just as great manipulative skills.
3. Are you implying in the slightest that despite all of his achievements, Sidious - Force powers, saber skills, manipulation skills, and overall effect on the galaxy is pathetic?
Any of the named Ancient Sith, from Simus to Revan, would dispatch Sidious. Did he affect the Galaxy? Sure, but did he affect it more than the lasting effects of a full scale galactic war like Sadow, Kun, or Revan? Not necessarily. Simply because you KNOW the effects of Sidious does not mean he is greater than the other individuals.
I will also admit to the fact that Revenge of The Sith totally ruined the character. Sidious - in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones - was always running the show. He manipulated the Republic and the Separatists. He also thoroughly deceived the entire Jedi Order. He shared a unique - not totally, mind you, but an excellent trait - ability to cloak himself from the Jedi.
He had the advantage of being able to cloak himself because of the lack of KNOWLEDGE from the Jedi. No Jedi, up until Qui-Gon, had even seen a Sith. They were thought to be extinct for 1000 years. The Jedi, like Mace or Yoda, even sensed the Dark Side clouding their force powers, but they did not believe it was the Sith menace until it was too late, and they had no reason to suspect a Sith Lord was so close to home.
Kun managed to mask his presence when people KNEW about the Sith, there were individuals in the Jedi Order that knew and feared the uprising of the old Sith Empire, he was not covert and still accomplished effectively the same thing. That is a greater feat.
Two of the biggest wars in galactic history were brought on and then manipulated by Sidious. His tactics spoke of extreme cowardice and unwillingness to take immense risks that jeoparadized his life.
Bigger than several of the Sith Wars? Perhaps, but then again, you had Grievous leading the Seperatist forces, does that mean he is great? The act of declaring/leading sides in a war does not inherently make you good.
But you would be lying - Illustrious - if you dismiss Sidious's achievements as nothing.
No, I didn't dismiss it as nothing, but it's not enough to make Sidious the best Sith ever, that honor goes to an individual like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun, or (a distant 4th) Revan.
Illustrious. I did admit - and have so on several occasions - that the methods Sidious used were not great. But his goal was. And he was the only Sith to ever conquer the Republic. So please do not act like I have not. Sidious did conquer the Republic. A feat Revan never accomplished and a feat that Ragnos never did.
Sidious is up there. Like it or not. Hate him or not. In terms of affects on the galaxy - he is far ahead from anyone else.
He is great. One of the greatest - if not the. Moreso than Revan, I'm afraid. Ragnos is his only competition.