Sith Lords vs. Jedi Masters

Originally posted by DarthGenises
Strange you never call Nai a nimrod when he states these same facts.

Dude...because I use to state facts.

A)
Yoda in AotC times is 874 years old. We know that he was given his Jedi Knight status when he was in the age of 50 and we know that he was a Jedi Consular spending most time with study of the force and diplomatic missions. Leads to point

B)
Ataru is not meant to be unpredictable. It's just an aggressive form of lightsaber combat designed to overwhelm a single opponent. Yet the way Yoda uses it makes it unpredictable but not because of the form - it's because of Yodas force mastery. In the fight with Dooku in AotC you can see him jump over Dookus head making an attack, flying in a different direction and attacking again and then landing before Dookus feet again. Impossible for somebody with less force powers or more size.

C)
Yes. Yoda is very hard if not impossible to hit. That would give him nothing against an opponent he's not able to hit.

But...since this debate is quite pointless in my eyes and to end it.

The AotC duel re-watched

So...I had a look at this fight just to do this reply. I went through it picture by picture just to show you who was "superior" here.

Fight starts. You can see Dooku attacking Yoda. The first (two handed) swing by Dooku is parried by Yoda with one hand while spinning. Now Dooku's second attack is also parried but this time Yoda does it with one hand and behind his back.

Now the first critical movement:
Dooku slashes downward to hit Yoda. Yoda jumps over Dookus lightsaber and aims at Dookus back. And this parry behind the back was - in my eyes - more luck than skill from Dooku as he just pulled his strike further than it was meant.
The fight continues with 3 attacks by Yoda (spin, spin, jump) followed by 3 attacks on the other side (stab, stab, jump). Now again Dooku parries behind his back but this parry is useless because Yoda hits his blade from above and thereby - theoretically - could still have hit Dookus back.
That is followed by another 2 spin attacks from Yoda and then Yoda avoids Dookus blade. He parries it but this parry is as useless as the parry behind the back by Dooku before.

Second critical movement:
Dooku tries to hit Yoda. Yoda dodges Dookus lightsaber two times by moving to the left and then you can see that he nearly cuts Dookus right foot of (!) and they engage in the first saber lock in this fight.

Now Yoda pushes Dooku back and please have a look at Dookus face right after that. He is either concentrated or frustrated. Now the lock is broken and Yoda starts attacking again with a spin and at the next attack you can see that Dooku is nearly losing his left hand when he removes it from the lightsaber hilt to parry Yoda's attack.

Then there is this wicked attack series where Yoda jumps and does 3 strikes at Dooku while being in the air. Then Yoda does this series of jumps (Dooku trying to hit him again), followed by the last 3 attacks of the fight, again a saber lock and then Dooku leaves the place.

So please. Yoda was superior in this fight. He threw 20 attacks on Dooku and nearly cut Dookus right foot and his left hand off. You can speculate as much as you like but if this fight would have lasted longer Yoda would have either killed or (literally) disarmed Dooku.

And Yoda was breathing heavily but not from the fight (this can be seen before) but from lifting that metal thing up Dooku threw at Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Nai...your posts are the most detailed I have ever seen...but they hurt my eyes and take to long to read.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Dude...because I use to state [b]facts.

A)
Yoda in AotC times is 874 years old. We know that he was given his Jedi Knight status when he was in the age of 50 and we know that he was a Jedi Consular spending most time with study of the force and diplomatic missions. Leads to point

B)
Ataru is not meant to be unpredictable. It's just an aggressive form of lightsaber combat designed to overwhelm a single opponent. Yet the way Yoda uses it makes it unpredictable but not because of the form - it's because of Yodas force mastery. In the fight with Dooku in AotC you can see him jump over Dookus head making an attack, flying in a different direction and attacking again and then landing before Dookus feet again. Impossible for somebody with less force powers or more size.

C)
Yes. Yoda is very hard if not impossible to hit. That would give him nothing against an opponent he's not able to hit.

But...since this debate is quite pointless in my eyes and to end it.

The AotC duel re-watched

So...I had a look at this fight just to do this reply. I went through it picture by picture just to show you who was "superior" here.

Fight starts. You can see Dooku attacking Yoda. The first (two handed) swing by Dooku is parried by Yoda with one hand while spinning. Now Dooku's second attack is also parried but this time Yoda does it with one hand and behind his back.

Now the first critical movement:
Dooku slashes downward to hit Yoda. Yoda jumps over Dookus lightsaber and aims at Dookus back. And this parry behind the back was - in my eyes - more luck than skill from Dooku as he just pulled his strike further than it was meant.
The fight continues with 3 attacks by Yoda (spin, spin, jump) followed by 3 attacks on the other side (stab, stab, jump). Now again Dooku parries behind his back but this parry is useless because Yoda hits his blade from above and thereby - theoretically - could still have hit Dookus back.
That is followed by another 2 spin attacks from Yoda and then Yoda avoids Dookus blade. He parries it but this parry is as useless as the parry behind the back by Dooku before.

Second critical movement:
Dooku tries to hit Yoda. Yoda dodges Dookus lightsaber two times by moving to the left and then you can see that he nearly cuts Dookus right foot of (!) and they engage in the first saber lock in this fight.

Now Yoda pushes Dooku back and please have a look at Dookus face right after that. He is either concentrated or frustrated. Now the lock is broken and Yoda starts attacking again with a spin and at the next attack you can see that Dooku is nearly losing his left hand when he removes it from the lightsaber hilt to parry Yoda's attack.

Then there is this wicked attack series where Yoda jumps and does 3 strikes at Dooku while being in the air. Then Yoda does this series of jumps (Dooku trying to hit him again), followed by the last 3 attacks of the fight, again a saber lock and then Dooku leaves the place.

So please. Yoda was superior in this fight. He threw 20 attacks on Dooku and nearly cut Dookus right foot and his left hand off. You can speculate as much as you like but if this fight would have lasted longer Yoda would have either killed or (literally) disarmed Dooku.

And Yoda was breathing heavily but not from the fight (this can be seen before) but from lifting that metal thing up Dooku threw at Anakin and Obi-Wan. [/B]

Anyone can say that someone "nearly" did something. Hell, i could say Dooku nearly took Yoda's head and legs off on AOTC, just from the slashes when Yoda jumped off the flyer. They were even. Don't even try to tell me that Yoda completly surpassed that fight. He was grunting and screaming because he was having troubles. Don't tell me he had that fight wrapped around his finger, because if he did, Dooku would have been dead before ROTS.

Originally posted by Count Dooku
Anyone can say that someone "nearly" did something. Hell, i could say Dooku nearly took Yoda's head and legs off on AOTC, just from the slashes when Yoda jumped off the flyer. They were even. Don't even try to tell me that Yoda completly surpassed that fight. He was grunting and screaming because he was having troubles. Don't tell me he had that fight wrapped around his finger, because if he did, Dooku would have been dead before ROTS.

Yoda is not fast in killing anybody. But hell...If both opponents use some styles designed to kill a single opponent and one of them strikes 20 attacks while the other manages to get 5 attacks at the other I have to say that the one who did hit 20 attacks dominated the fight.

And have a look at Dookus face. He's also not doing this "easily". In fact they are both badass duellists and I won't deny that but from what I've seen Yoda has still the advantage on Dooku - and I pretty much believe they both didn't want to kill each other in this situation.

It's possible they didn't want to kill one another, but from my viewings of the battle it seems more like a show than a real fight. Notice the dramatic change in Dooku's style.

Dooku and Yoda had a great bond so I doubt they would kill one another.

Sith Lords will win. Maul can beat Obi-Wan. Yoda would look stronger than the Emperor but in the end will lose. Tyrannos will destroy Mace.
BTW, this is a very cool forum, i love some of the explanation given here 🙂

Maul will get crushed by Obi-Wan. . . Mace and Tyranus are a stalemate compared to the others. . . and Yoda kills the Master.

I'm craving a tosted bagle with strawberry cream cheese.

And French Silk Pie, we know.

Obi-Wan was more then a match for Maul when he was a Padawn so what you are saying is that now that he is a master he is weaker.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No it does mean that Yoda can take Sidious in a "fair" fight too. And there never was a fair fight between Yoda and Sidious.

He was too powerfull in that special situation. In the movie you have Yoda disarmed and on the bottom of the Senate chamber while clone troops are coming. Sure Yoda can't defeate Sidious in that situation. In a fair fight he would screw Sidious.
And Sidious won only because of [b]luck. Because being lucky enough to destroy Yodas lightsaber with force lightning and falling off the Senate "pod" on the right side (that side where you can grab on and stay on it).

That is right but since the fight here implies another situation than the fight between Yoda and Sidious shown in the movies - Yoda will win. Because there would be no clones coming and there is no chance for Sidious to take the "high ground" somewhere. This is a straight lightsaber duel and Yoda would kill him without a doubt. [/B]

Nai, that is a very true statement. And I agree. But Yoda wouldn't own Palpatine - which is the point I am trying to get across. But yes, in the end, Yoda would probably defeat Sidious. But as with Dooku, it would be far from easily.

The Fact that Sidious managed to get Yoda in a position of inferiority is a testament to his skill. He nearly won the battle without fighting, and even still won despite Yoda's efforts. Sidious>Yoda.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
The Fact that Sidious managed to get Yoda in a position of inferiority is a testament to his skill. He nearly won the battle without fighting, and even still won despite Yoda's efforts. Sidious>Yoda.

So you're saying that if I can manuever someone into a rough spot where they will die, I am technically skilled?

So Luke is more skilled than Moff Tarkin, since he manuevered himself into a position of power and destroyed the Death Star.

So VAder is more skilled than Sidious, considering the dark lord allowed himself to be manuevered into a vulnerable position, from where he was chucked into a reactor core.

So Malak is more skilled than Revan because he was able to fire upon Revan's ship while they were in battle.

Try not to make statements so general that they don't support themselves. Sidious' skill lies in his manipulation, yes. But to say the way he worked the battle is a testament to his skill is akin to saying that the Wampa in ESB was more skilled than Luke because it caught him at a disadvantage. Sidious was fortunate to have been able to catch Yoda at a disadvantage somewhere in the fight. If he was so skilled and he had the upper hand based on his skill alone, he would not have run from Yoda in the first place!

Second, to say he nearly won the battle without fighting is ridiculous. Here's how the fight started:

- Sidious shocks Yoda with Sith lightning, and he catches the jedi master off guard.

- Yoda gets back up and force pushes Sidious into a far wall.

- Sidious gets up and runs for the door.

So his initial plan was to overcome Yoda with his lightning, or (if that didn't work) run the hell out of there.

And as for what transpired next, Sidious was constantly working his tail off (fighting much faster than he did with Mace Windu) until he managed to get the high ground, where he started to use objects the size of VW bugs to attack Yoda.

Please... try and be more articulate when you spout off nonsense.

Jabar, I sort of agree and disagree.

No. I do not think that in neutral terms - on neutral grounds - Sidious would be able to overcome Yoda. I'm not saying the fight would be quick or that Yoda would own him - which he wouldn't - but Sidious would eventually be defeated.

When Sidious blasted Yoda during the initial portion of the fight - Yoda was unprepared. Yes. This IS a failure on Yoda's fault. It is stupidity. If one goes into the stronghold of a dangerous foe, one should be always prepared. Yoda and Sidious engaged in some arrogant banter. Then Sidious raised his hands and blasted Yoda.

I HAVE seen and offered screenshots of Yoda during this blast. Yoda was surprised - and moved to defend himself by blocking the lightning. He is capable of doing so - but Sidious took advantage before he could. Yoda's hands covered his chest - but his defenses were overloaded by Sidious. It knocked him across the room. The blow nearly knocked him out.

Sidious was also at a disadvantage for arrogantly assuming Yoda was done for. Having met face-to-face with Yoda and heard all about him, I would think that Sidious would be a bit more cautious. Yet he didn't, and that goes to show Sidious's greatest weakness is his arrogance. Yoda got back up and Force pushed Sidious across the room. Sidious flipped over his desk, crashed into his chair.

He got up seconds later - as Yoda regrouped. Sidious flipped over his desk and headed for the door.

Now. Sidious is an arrogant coward (a bad combination) - but he left because of the following.

- He triumphed over the Jedi and took over the galaxy. His plans were finally executed. Yet Sidious tried to make a smart move. Why stay and fight with a being who is very much your equal in the Force - when you can live to fight another day...behind an armada of clones?

blah blah blah blah blah ....... yeah i am smart and i know alot about everything so awsome

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
When Sidious blasted Yoda during the initial portion of the fight - Yoda was unprepared. Yes. This IS a failure on Yoda's fault. It is stupidity. If one goes into the stronghold of a dangerous foe, one should be always prepared. Yoda and Sidious engaged in some arrogant banter. Then Sidious raised his hands and blasted Yoda.

That is basically assumption. You can also say that Yoda fooled around with Sidious since he was lying on the ground just long enough to get the Sith Lord close and then force push him through the room.

I HAVE seen and offered screenshots of Yoda during this blast. Yoda was surprised - and moved to defend himself by blocking the lightning. He is capable of doing so - but Sidious took advantage before he could. Yoda's hands covered his chest - but his defenses were overloaded by Sidious. It knocked him across the room. The blow nearly knocked him out.

The point is that Sidious didn't overload Yodas defenses because there were none.

Now. Sidious is an arrogant coward (a bad combination) - but he left because of the following.

- He triumphed over the Jedi and took over the galaxy. His plans were finally executed. Yet Sidious tried to make a smart move. Why stay and fight with a being who is very much your equal in the Force - when you can live to fight another day...behind an armada of clones?

No. He ran because he knew that he'd lose in a fair fight or lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That is basically assumption. You can also say that Yoda fooled around with Sidious since he was lying on the ground just long enough to get the Sith Lord close and then force push him through the room.

The point is that Sidious didn't overload Yodas defenses because there were none.

No. He ran because he knew that he'd lose in a fair fight or lightsaber duel.

1. So it is an assumption either way, Nai. Clearly your answer has no real proof to support it either.

2. Yoda made a last-ditch effort to try and defend himself. The screenie proved it, Nai. He moved his arms to block the attack. He was too late and Sidious's lightning hit its mark.

3. THAT is pure speculation, Nai.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. So it is an assumption either way, Nai. Clearly your answer has no real proof to support it either.

2. Yoda made a last-ditch effort to try and defend himself. The screenie proved it, Nai. He moved his arms to block the attack. He was too late and Sidious's lightning hit its mark.

3. THAT is pure speculation, Nai.

1- That being his point.

2- More like a reflex to me. But this point has been argued. In your quest to prove Sidious' amazing skill you have gone so far as to claim this was a last-second defense, as opposed to a reflex, which makes far more sense.

3- Is it? No more than what you put forth. And him running away indicates that he's afraid of losing or challenging Yoda in those current circumstances. If he wasn't, he should have stayed and killed Yoda once and for all.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
1- That being his point.

2- More like a reflex to me. But this point has been argued. In your quest to prove Sidious' amazing skill you have gone so far as to claim this was a last-second defense, as opposed to a reflex, which makes far more sense.

3- Is it? No more than what you put forth. And him running away indicates that he's afraid of losing or challenging Yoda in those current circumstances. If he wasn't, he should have stayed and killed Yoda once and for all.

1. Indeed. And I agree with him.

2. My quest is to state the obvious. People dismiss Sidious as a half rate Force-user, politician, pathetic duelist, and overall a pathetic Sith Lord. He is not the greatest Force user (but he is highly powerful in it), he is a manipulative genius, and I will admit his dueling skills are sub par when comparing them to Tulak Hord. You all need to face that fact very well. Lucas wouldn't have a Sith Lord take over the Republic if he were pathetic.

Edit: Nevermind. I see what you mean by the reflex point. If, by reflex, you mean trying to block the lightning. But covering one's chest won't stop a bolt of Force lightning. Still, Janus, you can't dismiss that there is a possibility that Yoda WAS trying to defend himself.

3. If so, that still doesn't make Nai right. And yes, he WAS afraid that he would lose against Yoda. For the reasons I stated above.