Sith Lords vs. Jedi Masters

If you think I didn't mean Palpatine was afraid of fighting Yoda, that wasn't it. He WAS afraid. But remember what Palpatine said to Anakin in the Galaxies Opera. "Those who gain power are afraid to lose it". He was more concerned about coming out alive to rule the Empire, not because he dramatically feared Yoda. As we saw during the duel, Yoda wouldn't certainly own Palpatine.

My explanation regarding Palpatine's fear of death and fear of losing his power makes far more sense than of his fear of Yoda.

Well of course. And in the end we have to grab at information to defend ourselves in this debate. What we need is more concrete information, since we cannot convince one another through other means. But I don't forsee that coming, do you?

No. Because Lucas generally likes fans to make up their own minds. But even so, there is no real truth in Star Wars. Something that I don't like. Concrete evidence is preferred - at least to me - than over speculation of fans such as ourselves.

He needs to write a book that clears up these errors...

I totally agree, but I don't think he will. In particular, I remember him saying specifically for fans to "think outside of the box". And I think that's part of the charm of the series... to each his own truth.

Like I believe that Anakin is a sith creation, made by Plagues' work. That's not proven by anything, but it is hinted at by Sidious himself.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
So you're saying that if I can manuever someone into a rough spot where they will die, I am technically skilled?

So Luke is more skilled than Moff Tarkin, since he manuevered himself into a position of power and destroyed the Death Star.

No, if you realise your opponent's move will happen, then plan accordingly to fully exploit the situation, THEN you are better then your opponent. Imagine Khe Sahn, and how the Vietnamese, after realising that the US thought a DBP type situation was being created, concentrated all effort into aiding that view, still, at the same time going ahead, DESPITE casualties, and executed the Tet Offensive, catching the US off guard. A better way of saying it is like this: "Victorious warriors win (Sidious) first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first (Yoda) and then seek to win."

So show me exactly how Sidious expected to win the war before he fought it when he was fairly surprised at Yoda even surviving Order 66?

Sidious out of all people should have expected the greatest Jedi to survive Order 66.

But he didn't. Watch the movie again.

"Master Yoda... You survived..."

If he expected Yoda to survive, he also would have been intelligent enough to determine that Yoda would come after him. And if he is the cunning, underhanded bastard we know him to be, he would have me Yoda in a room full of clone troopers, not alone with two idiot royal guards.

See, for a genius Sidious sure didn't expect the Great Jedi Master Yoda to survive. Sidious should have put 2 and 2 together.
Yoda + Wookies= Dead Clone Troopers

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
[B, he would have me Yoda in a room full of clone troopers, not alone with two idiot royal guards. [/B]

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Uhhh, he DID have clone troopers. He just called them in after he fought Yoda, in fact, it appears that he didn't need them at all. Anyway, what could Yoda have done? Killed Sidious? Then what? Have the republic fracture into civil war? Sidious maneuvered Yoda in a situation that HE COULD NOT WIN.

Oh boy. You really didn't understand anything I said, did you?

Sidious was not prepared to fight Yoda in his chamber. He had no backup. He sent Vader off on some errand. He was perfectly secure in his newfound power. And when Yoda arrived, unharmed, he did what he does best; he shot the little guy and tried to make a break for it. Sidious did NOT win the battle because of advanced tactics or foresight. He did NOT win the battle because he was able to manuever Yoda into a bad spot.

He won the battle because he was fortunate enough to knock Yoda's light saber from him and then catch onto a ledge after the lightning battle whereas Yoda had nothing to grip on.

It was luck or perhaps the Force itself that was on Sidious' side, not foresight and tactics.

Secondly, if Sidious really wanted to shape the battlefield to his advantage, he would have confronted Yoda in an open area with plenty of coverfire and just fried the bastard from afar with lightning or something else. SIdious is a Sith. Sith go out of their way to take and maintain power at any cost, any way possible. Sitting there in his office basically alone save for an advisor and two guards was complatency on his part and it almost cost him his life. It was not "planned".

As for the death of Sidious causing civil war, this is unfounded. With the enemy armies gone, and the Sith eradicated, if anything it would be far simpler to reestablish Republic security, especially since the senate still existed. Far simpler than it was after ROTJ, with no senate and nearly three decades of Imperial rule. Most people didn't know what it was like to live in the Republic at that time. The conversion than would have been much worse.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Uhhh, he DID have clone troopers. He just called them in after he fought Yoda, in fact, it appears that he didn't need them at all. Anyway, what could Yoda have done? Killed Sidious? Then what? Have the republic fracture into civil war? Sidious maneuvered Yoda in a situation that HE COULD NOT WIN.

Yeah no shit, except that was after Tarkin's little **** up.
Anyway, Janus, the fact remains that Yoda was never an issue. The fact remains that Yoda COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED THE CREATION OF THE EMPIRE. Sidious OUTMANOEUVRED HIM.
"As for the death of Sidious causing civil war, this is unfounded":
Name me one regime that successfully survived the death of a tyrant. To use the example of Rome, after Caesar's death, even with a senate and clear successors, a horrific civil war broke out. Anyway, who's to say that Sidious didn't have clones in place by that point?

Why would any Jedi/Sith after taking control of the galaxy want to fight Yoda to the death?

What the hell does wanting to fight have anything to do with it?

Anyway, who's to say that Sidious didn't have clones in place by that point?
You are talking about Sidious vs. Yoda right?

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Yeah no shit, except that was after Tarkin's little **** up.

What ? The rebellion started basically when Sidious took the power.

Anyway, Janus, the fact remains that Yoda was never an issue. The fact remains that Yoda COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED THE CREATION OF THE EMPIRE. Sidious OUTMANOEUVRED HIM.

Yoda could have killed Sidious and he could have stopped the creation of the Empire because: If Sidious would have been killed this would have resulted in Vader being killed also leaving an army of clone troopers that would have listened to anybody (being designed to be commanded around) and the Senate could have easily elected a new Chancellor. So: Where was the problem for Yoda to stop Sidious ?

"As for the death of Sidious causing civil war, this is unfounded":
Name me one regime that successfully survived the death of a tyrant. To use the example of Rome, after Caesar's death, even with a senate and clear successors, a horrific civil war broke out. Anyway, who's to say that Sidious didn't have clones in place by that point?

There was no regime in ROTS times. And who should have started a civil war ? And why ?

-Cough- Sidious knocked Yoda's lightsaber away out of skill. Sidious jumped on to a Senate pod, and Yoda followed. Yoda ignited his blade and moved in for the kill. Sidious shot lightning from his hand - notice it didn't hit Yoda anywhere else - and knocked the saber away.

Sidious did it with intent to disarm Yoda.

How do you know Yoda didn't disarm Sidious? If you noticed he never showed any signs of having his lightsaber on him.

Whoa? Where'd that come from?

I never said Yoda did NOT disarm Sidious. We're talking about Sidious blasting Yoda's lightsaber from his hands. Which he did.