Originally posted by DigiMark007
Wally has read at Flash-speed too. They all think hella-fast. Xavier's dead before his mind processes that the light is green.
Yes, we know he can think fast, and react fast while he is moving, (even though he cannot remember what he read at "flash speed".
Demi is asking if he can make his inital thought FASTER than Xavier, with them both knowing the others prescence.
Originally posted by demigawd
As I understand it, he has to RUN into the speedforce. He doesn't automatically go at lightspeed. It actually takes him a few seconds to get there. By then, he'll be a vegetable.
First off he doest even have to go lightspeed to beat Prof X. The human thought isnt faster than lifghtspeed. Not even near it. As soon as the light turns green, time is stopped for Wally and Xavier is ko.d. Or rolling down steps.
Originally posted by demigawd
Yes, I know. I used that example with arguing that Flash against Runner. But it doesn't work in your case. That's a case of Flash knowing that was going to happen and moving at FTL speeds to clear everybody. It doesn't show initial brain registration time. What's an example of initial brain registration time? Because Flashes only hope against Xavier is to prove that he can register a thought faster than anybody else. We all know and accept how fast he can move once he DECIDES to move. But can he DECIDE to move faster than anybody else? I want proof of that.Does what I'm asking make sense?
Read my last post on that. He read hacked a computer at lear light speeds. Thats faster than any normal human thought.
Originally posted by demigawd
There was a debate awhile ago where it was revealed that Flash has to accelerate at a certain speed in order to access the speedforce. He can't just *poof* and do it. I think it was kgkg who mentioned this. True or no?
True. But he doesnt need to go lightspeed to beat Prof. Porf.X would be mid thought if that at time of green light. His eyes are still sending the signal to his brain.
Speedforce is kinda tricky. When running it takes him about a second to go lightspeed via speed force.
To do other things by tapping into the speed force, it takes him nothing. He doesnt even have to move to do so.
But what is this based on? It seems Flash's powers are always based upon momentum. That's the only explanation for him being able to program computers at lightspeed but still get ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes.
What do I mean by that? ok, let's say Flash was circling the earth over and over again when the 3-2-1 hit. Then I'd say that Flash takes out Xavier no question. But it seems that when Flash is in a still state, or in the very beginning of a run that his reaction time is comparatively slow. That's how he gets ambushed and attacked by flying Boomerangs and guys with swords in the first place.
Now, I know your answer is going to be, "PIS" - but let's think about this. I think PIS is too readily used to dismiss things people don't like about characters. I don't believe that PIS should be a subjective thing, though that's how it's being used on this board. PIS, to me, should be strictly and ob jectively defined as, "Actions that take place that are contrary to established and consistent aspects of a character's powers, actions or abilities". Superman getting KO'ed by Venom is PIS because he consistently withstands 100s of times more powerful attacks. Flash getting KO'ed by a guy throwing a boomerang is not, because there's actually no majority precedent saying that it shouldn't happen.
You've named a couple of debatable instances where Flash has reacted at FTL speeds. But there are FAR MORE instances where Flash is caught off-guard when he's at a standing or beginning running state. That says to me that Flash has *human* level initial thought time, but as he accelerates, so too do his reflexes and reaction times. If we're going to declare that the hundreds of instances where he's tagged by non FTL characters are PIS, it would have to be outweighed by thousands of instances where he's been unable to be ambushed. That doesn't exist.
So by strict math, in reality, if we're looking at PIS objectively, then if anything, we'd actually have to throw out his FTL *initial* reaction times rahter than his failure to *initially* reacted at FTL speeds. Because, sad as it is to admit, Deathstroke isn't the only time Flash was punked by a non-speedster.
So going by strict definition, at 3-2-1 go, with Flash starting from a stopped state and Xavier a mile away, they should both process the GO at around the same time, and they should both identify the target at the same time. But Xavier can both identify the target AND take action against the target simultaneously because thought and action are identical to a telepath. Flash still has the burden of identifying the target and then actually running to the target and punching the target. Given Flash's *actual* history and the *majority* of his showings, that's not going to happen before Xavier gets out his single thought.
Does that make sense?
I'm headed to the airport and leaving Paris now. I'll write more when I'm in Amsterdam.
Heh...the KMC rules have a "speed" for thought, and even if Flash starts slower, the speed it gives for thought is ridiculously slower than Flash.
It would take more than one thought too, wouldn't it? He'd have to concentrate to keep Flash down. A split-second of thought isn't going to be enough to put Flash down, and then it'll be hard to keep concentrating with 1000 punches flying in at you.
OP - "They're a mile from each other. They both know they're in a fight as soon as the light turns from red to green. They're both waiting for the light to turn green. Neither knows when the light will...."
As soon as Flash moves everything is stopped to him. Time, you may as well say. Prof. X cant think while everythig else is stopped. Only a mile away from each other? Flash gets there in a nanosecond. Really. Maybe even faster.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Heh...the KMC rules have a "speed" for thought, and even if Flash starts slower, the speed it gives for thought is ridiculously slower than Flash.It would take more than one thought too, wouldn't it? He'd have to concentrate to keep Flash down. A split-second of thought isn't going to be enough to put Flash down, and then it'll be hard to keep concentrating with 1000 punches flying in at you.
What KMC rules? There's a speed for thought??? wtf? Where is this?
And since when did you become a moderator?
Xavier only struggles sometimes when he's trying to delicately influence or control someone's mind. When he's doing a straight out mind blast...your ass is going down in one shot.
Originally posted by jrodslam
OP - "They're a mile from each other. They both know they're in a fight as soon as the light turns from red to green. They're both waiting for the light to turn green. Neither knows when the light will...."As soon as Flash moves everything is stopped to him. Time, you may as well say. Prof. X cant think while everythig else is stopped. Only a mile away from each other? Flash gets there in a nanosecond. Really. Maybe even faster.
That's understandable....but my point isn't how fast can he move, or how slow is everything else, but what evidence is there that the decision process - the initial registration of an action, the command to "do something" is faster for Flash than for anybody else. All evidence in his half century of history goes against that. It seems to suggest that only as Flash goes faster do his other processes speed up along with it. So Flash running in place vs. Xavier would have a totally different outcome than Flash standing vs. Xavier.
Flash appears to have regular human inital thought. So, rather than a foot race, if Flash were to play, say, that hand slapping game with Xavier, I firmly believe Xavier could slap Flash pretty often. Or Jeopardy. Or anything else that is solely about brain processing time.
Originally posted by demigawd
But what is this based on? It seems Flash's powers are always based upon momentum. That's the only explanation for him being able to program computers at lightspeed but still get ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes.What do I mean by that? ok, let's say Flash was circling the earth over and over again when the 3-2-1 hit. Then I'd say that Flash takes out Xavier no question. But it seems that when Flash is in a still state, or in the very beginning of a run that his reaction time is comparatively slow. That's how he gets ambushed and attacked by flying Boomerangs and guys with swords in the first place.
Now, I know your answer is going to be, "PIS" - but let's think about this. I think PIS is too readily used to dismiss things people don't like about characters. I don't believe that PIS should be a subjective thing, though that's how it's being used on this board. PIS, to me, should be strictly and ob jectively defined as, "Actions that take place that are contrary to established and consistent aspects of a character's powers, actions or abilities". Superman getting KO'ed by Venom is PIS because he consistently withstands 100s of times more powerful attacks. Flash getting KO'ed by a guy throwing a boomerang is not, because there's actually no majority precedent saying that it shouldn't happen.
You've named a couple of debatable instances where Flash has reacted at FTL speeds. But there are FAR MORE instances where Flash is caught off-guard when he's at a standing or beginning running state. That says to me that Flash has *human* level initial thought time, but as he accelerates, so too do his reflexes and reaction times. If we're going to declare that the hundreds of instances where he's tagged by non FTL characters are PIS, it would have to be outweighed by thousands of instances where he's been unable to be ambushed. That doesn't exist.
So by strict math, in reality, if we're looking at PIS objectively, then if anything, we'd actually have to throw out his FTL *initial* reaction times rahter than his failure to *initially* reacted at FTL speeds. Because, sad as it is to admit, Deathstroke isn't the only time Flash was punked by a non-speedster.
So going by strict definition, at 3-2-1 go, with Flash starting from a stopped state and Xavier a mile away, they should both process the GO at around the same time, and they should both identify the target at the same time. But Xavier can both identify the target AND take action against the target simultaneously because thought and action are identical to a telepath. Flash still has the burden of identifying the target and then actually running to the target and punching the target. Given Flash's *actual* history and the *majority* of his showings, that's not going to happen before Xavier gets out his single thought.
Does that make sense?
I'm headed to the airport and leaving Paris now. I'll write more when I'm in Amsterdam.
The main reason why flash gets "ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes " because the comic demands it
Here I just bought 50 flash comic books and hey flash never gets hit. Boring Zzzzzzzzzz
It’s a comic book, its fact that any speeder gets tagged, but they have shown speed at times which makes it a contradiction.
And you are right about flash needing to accelerate to reach higher speed, he did that when he battle Grod.
He had to run far away to build momentum. Tho I heard he is one with the speed force now.
Originally posted by kgkg
The main reason why flash gets "ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes " because the comic demands itHere I just bought 50 flash comic books and hey flash never gets hit. Boring Zzzzzzzzzz
It’s a comic book, its fact that any speeder gets tagged, but they have shown speed at times which makes it a contradiction.
And you are right about flash needing to accelerate to reach higher speed, he did that when he battle Grod.
He had to run far away to build momentum. Tho I heard he is one with the speed force now.
That's nice, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it. We don't get to pick and choose portrayals we like. So the whole, "the comic demands it" explanation isn't valid. PIS, like I said in an earlier post, should only apply where there's a portrayal or an action that is clearly contradictory to the VAST majority of what the character does. Kazar breaking Thanos' bearhug is an example of PIS. Kazar is a peak human who spends his time struggling against lions and raptors, and Thanos is well beyond CL100 (which is why the whole thing was retconned). Flash getting hit from behind by boomerangs is not PIS, because it's happened over 100 times by dozens of writers.
So to say that Flash would take out Xavier before Xavier finished his thought is false because 50 years of evidence shows that Flash, while he can move fast, doesn't necessarily react that fast. Whether Flash's reaction times are slowed for reader entertainment purposes or not is irrelevant. It's established.
Originally posted by demigawd
That's nice, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it. We don't get to pick and choose portrayals we like. So the whole, "the comic demands it" explanation isn't valid. PIS, like I said in an earlier post, should only apply where there's a portrayal or an action that is clearly contradictory to the VAST majority of what the character does. Kazar breaking Thanos' bearhug is an example of PIS. Kazar is a peak human who spends his time struggling against lions and raptors, and Thanos is well beyond CL100 (which is why the whole thing was retconned). Flash getting hit from behind by boomerangs is not PIS, because it's happened over 100 times by dozens of writers.So to say that Flash would take out Xavier before Xavier finished his thought is false because 50 years of evidence shows that Flash, while he can move fast, doesn't necessarily react that fast. Whether Flash's reaction times are slowed for reader entertainment purposes or not is irrelevant. It's established.
Which speeder that has lots of comics haven't been tagged in battle etc
Originally posted by demigawd
What KMC rules? There's a speed for thought??? wtf? Where is this?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t308157.html
...toward the bottom of Tron's battle-rules is a bit about super-speed and its relation to thought speed. It tries to base off of a credible source, but isn't set in stone. By its estimation, however, Flash would have enough momentum to shatter Zavier into little pieces by the time Xavier's thoughts affected Flash, even if Xavier did influence Flash just before he got to him.
Xavier only struggles sometimes when he's trying to delicately influence or control someone's mind. When he's doing a straight out mind blast...your ass is going down in one shot.
I'd agree, but I'll stick by my educated guess that Flash would kill him before that happens (because I'll be honest, I don't know for sure how this would turn out).
And since when did you become a moderator?
Few weeks ago. You must be the last to know. But yeah, there was a need, and I got asked, so here I am. I'd say something like "Fear Me!" at this point, but I'm beyond the power-trip phase.
But that's the thing - the way I see it, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. The explanation should be simple - the faster Flash goes, the faster everything inside of Flash goes. So at normal speeds, he's pretty much a normal guy, he thinks normal, moves normal, etc. At 300 miles per hour, his body processes speed up accordingly to keep up. Ditto at 3000, 30,000, 300,000, etc. So that makes is very possible to tag him if you catch him off guard, or by surprise, or if you restrict his movements to very confined areas.
That very simple explanation will account for 90% of his "PIS" fights with non-speedsters, while still giving him the respect as the fastest around, since he can accelerate to full speed in mere nanoseconds. That's the way I've always seen him, and it's made him very consistent as a result. I just won't buy into this whole "kill you before you think" thing because there's no history of him doing it in the actual comics, regardless of the political reasons.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
[B]http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t308157.html...toward the bottom of Tron's battle-rules is a bit about super-speed and its relation to thought speed. It tries to base off of a credible source, but isn't set in stone. By its estimation, however, Flash would have enough momentum to shatter Zavier into little pieces by the time Xavier's thoughts affected Flash, even if Xavier did influence Flash just before he got to him.
But my theory isn't how faster Flash can run to Xavier, it's how fast Flash can decide to run and punch Xavier compared to how fast Xavier and decide to mindblast Flash. It's my belief that the 30mps that Xavier's thought processes run is equal or nearly equal to the speed that Flash's thought processes run in a still state, based on the majority of his history.
I'd agree, but I'll stick by my educated guess that Flash would kill him before that happens (because I'll be honest, I don't know for sure how this would turn out).
I'd feel better about your educated guess knowing that there are more examples of Flash mentally registering some event long before anyone else than not (essentially, his normal speed of thought being far greater than 30mps). There aren't. Or, at least, nobody has stepped forward with that information.
Few weeks ago. You must be the last to know. But yeah, there was a need, and I got asked, so here I am.
Ban anybody yet? Wolverine fanboys, I hope. 😉
I'd say something like "Fear Me!" at this point, but I'm beyond the power-trip phase.
Meaning that at some point you were IN the power-trip phase. 😛