Count Dooku vs. Darth Malak

Fishy: Right now I'm thinking Malak would win too, but some of the things you're saying I have no idea where you got em.

1. Malak wouldn't have many powerful opponents to fight, the Jedi don't send assassins (remember Saul's interrogation) and they didn't know the location of the Star Forge which Malak would be every now and then, the Mandalorians might have sent people but it wasn't Mandalore so that's no real threat to Malak. However, Malak did beat Kavar early on and got stronger since then, so we know he can beat a pretty powerful Jedi that would've lead the Republic into battle if Revan hadn't.

2. This stuff comes from the disciple right? Anyway, who's to say they weren't killed? Or why would they even try to control the Star Forge with Malak around anyway?

Nevertheless, the Rakatan computer on the Unknown world says: "Only one who is immensely strong in mind and will can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering the Rakatan's fate; becoming insane with hate and killing each other off in civil war. The Star Forge killed every Sith besides Revan and Malak, and hundreds tried.

Don't get me wrong, I think Malak would win barely, but I'm not all too sure of that.

Originally posted by Fishy
Against those that he could yes, but there had to be Jedi around that cuold not be killed like that, that could not be hunted down and executed. Jedi that were on the front line of the wars. Malak would have fought them.

Erm...Atton in KotoR 2 said that was exactly what he did: Hunting down Jedi and executing them.

Logic, who is going to be your primary target, the weak bastard or the powerful one. The one that means nothing or the one that could change the tie of the war. Throughout history commanders have always been the best target, seeing as Malak is described as somebody who fights in the battles during Kotor 1 it would be logical to assume that all those that stood a chance would attack him and that the most powerful one's would create that chance.

Who would be able to fight through an army of normal soldiers / Dark Jedi and Sith troops to challenge Malak ? Even if somebody managed to do so on a battlefield this can't be called "duel" anymore.

Masters joined Malak and Revan... They could not control the Star Forge.

What masters ? We have 12 people on the KotoR times council. 5 of them are still alive in KotoR 2 times and we know that Vandar was killed on Katarr. So they could at max have 6 no-name-Jedi Masters on their side and we don't know if some of them even tried to control the SF.

What would it matter? Obi Wan and Anakin were nice but nothing special, we know Malak was more powerful then Masters could beat powerful Masters as well. There is just no reason to assume either one of those would stand a chance against Malak, he would cream them too. Dooku was never challenged, not until he fought Yoda and he couldn't win that he lost his life in a weak way. Malak was challenged once and he lost because of Revan.

No what does this matter ? Of course Malak would cream Anakin and Obi-Wan but as easy as Dooku did it ? And where is the difference of Dooku not able to defeat Yoda and Malak not able to defeat Revan ?

Now Malak and Revan could have been leagues above everybody else, but you are not honestly going to tell me that you think those two could be weak. There is just no logic in it, Malak would have to had fought a lot of people, its implied.

Where ?

I don't know, if you get tired from using it, hardly matters anyways. And yeah, he was choking them both then used lightning on one and threw his lightsaber at the other.

Nothing Dooku can't do if he has to.

Who did Dooku face and beat that was worth fighting except for Mace but that was a training match? We don't know anything specific about Malak, but all logic says he killed more people and those that are considered powerful.

What powerful people ? The maximum would be that Malak fought 6 Jedi Council members and all the rest of his opponents had to be below that level. And Malak didn't manage to kill Kavar. So what makes you sure that he can beat Dooku who seems to be more experienced than Kavar, better with a lightsaber and had 13 years of Sith training ?

And you don't see where Dooku has a chance ?

- he has gone through 8 decades of force and lightsaber training where Malak had 3 including 13 years of practice in Sith techniques where Malak had 6.
- he is a legendary duelist just like Malak and mastered the best form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Now what you do is rating 6 years of war experience higher than 3 years of war experience + 5 decades of lightsaber / force practice. And this is what I don't get.

Another thing for all you kiddies out there...

Just because Malak is an "Classic/Ancient/Old sith Lord" does not mean Dooku cannot put him down.

I vote for Dooku. Too experienced for Malak.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Erm...Atton in KotoR 2 said that was exactly what he did: Hunting down Jedi and executing them.

Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.

Who would be able to fight through an army of normal soldiers / Dark Jedi and Sith troops to challenge Malak ? Even if somebody managed to do so on a battlefield this can't be called "duel" anymore.

Far from because Malak would logically do the same, it happened throughout every culture in all ages, why would it not happen in Star Wars? If its possible there its possible.

What masters ? We have 12 people on the KotoR times council. 5 of them are still alive in KotoR 2 times and we know that Vandar was killed on Katarr. So they could at max have 6 no-name-Jedi Masters on their side and we don't know if some of them even tried to control the SF.

No we don't know if they tried, we know the most powerful tried however and they all failed. Bastila says so in the Holocron. Now some of these Masters would have to be with the most powerful. Of course they could have died already, but I don't know.

No what does this matter ? Of course Malak would cream Anakin and Obi-Wan but as easy as Dooku did it ? And where is the difference of Dooku not able to defeat Yoda and Malak not able to defeat Revan ?

There is no real difference, Malak lost from Revan Dooku lost from Yoda well he would have if he didn't run away. It hardly matters, all I am saying is that the only real challenge Dooku had since he turned dark was Yoda and he lost that.

Where ?

All of Kotor, front line general, Legendary duellist, great fighter, incredibly powerful, the Star Forge, he was second in command. Its like saying Ragnos never fought anybody. Possible but so unlikely that it makes me laugh.

Nothing Dooku can't do if he has to.

We don't know that, now do we. I haven't seen Dooku use lightning that killed somebody on the other hand maybe they were really weak padawans, the fact is that Malak could use the force everybit as well as Dooku from what we have seen.

What powerful people ? The maximum would be that Malak fought 6 Jedi Council members and all the rest of his opponents had to be below that level. And Malak didn't manage to kill Kavar. So what makes you sure that he can beat Dooku who seems to be more experienced than Kavar, better with a lightsaber and had 13 years of Sith training ?

Why would they have to be weaker then the Council Members? People that are not in the council can be more powerful then people that are, especially after years of war.

And you don't see where Dooku has a chance ?

- he has gone through 8 decades of force and lightsaber training where Malak had 3 including 13 years of practice in Sith techniques where Malak had 6.
- he is a legendary duelist just like Malak and mastered the best form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Now what you do is rating 6 years of war experience higher than 3 years of war experience + 5 decades of lightsaber / force practice. And this is what I don't get.

Not just 6 years of war, but 6 years of Frontline wars against a lot of opponents. The Clone wars were not as hard as many other wars, especially not for Jedi. How many Jedi do we know of that Dooku fought? Or how much would you guess, Dooku doesn't seem like a front line general so even an estimated guess would keep it at a low number. With Malak I would guess a lot higher. Malak knows more about fighting in real life then Dooku does.

Originally posted by Fishy
Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.

It's also nearly impossible that many Jedi would come close to Malak (on a battle field or out of it) when Malak had thousands of Sith / Dark Jedi running around him. And if somebody managed to do that he had to fight through all this troops before being able to attack Malak - that's not what I would call "duel".

Far from because Malak would logically do the same, it happened throughout every culture in all ages, why would it not happen in Star Wars? If its possible there its possible.

Can you give me one historical example where a battle between two armies was deceided by the leader of army 1 defeating the leader of army 2 in a duel ?

There is no real difference, Malak lost from Revan Dooku lost from Yoda well he would have if he didn't run away. It hardly matters, all I am saying is that the only real challenge Dooku had since he turned dark was Yoda and he lost that.

You can also say that Revan was Malaks only "real challenge".

We don't know that, now do we. I haven't seen Dooku use lightning that killed somebody on the other hand maybe they were really weak padawans, the fact is that Malak could use the force everybit as well as Dooku from what we have seen.

I haven't seen anybody ever using lightning that could "instakill" people. Dooku could kill somebody with his lightning (that is quite obvious) and I won't argue that Malak is on par with Dooku when it comes to force abilities. Still I don't believe that he can beat Dooku through using the force OR in a lightsaber duel while I think that Dooku might be good enough with a lightsaber to kill Malak. So I'd have to say Dooku would win this.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It's also nearly impossible that many Jedi would come close to Malak (on a battle field or out of it) when Malak had thousands of Sith / Dark Jedi running around him. And if somebody managed to do that he had to fight through all this troops before being able to attack Malak - that's not what I would call "duel".

Look it happened in history, leaders looked for leaders. It was the way ground battles were fought. If Jedi and Sith fought each other then the weaker one's would force a path and the more powerful one's would go past them and take out or try to take out the weaker one's.

Also you would put your most powerful devision against their most powerful devision its just a standard thing to do, you make sure that the most powerful fight the most powerful, because both sides want to do it, it will work. And it may not be a duel but it would teach Malak how to fight.

Can you give me one historical example where a battle between two armies was deceided by the leader of army 1 defeating the leader of army 2 in a duel ?

No, but there are plenty of examples where the more powerful people tried to kill or capture the other more powerful people, just pick one random battle and there is a pretty big chance people did it like that. They were worth conquering killing capturing whatever the weaker one's were not worthy of the attention of the most powerful Jedi/Sith/Soldiers.

You can also say that Revan was Malaks only "real challenge".

Fine with me, but that would mean that the Master that is seen as one of the best around at that time was nothing compared to Malak. Making Malak all that more powerful.

I haven't seen anybody ever using lightning that could "instakill" people. Dooku could kill somebody with his lightning (that is quite obvious) and I won't argue that Malak is on par with Dooku when it comes to force abilities. Still I don't believe that he can beat Dooku through using the force OR in a lightsaber duel while I think that Dooku might be good enough with a lightsaber to kill Malak. So I'd have to say Dooku would win this.

I don't think Malak is leagues above Dooku in either, but I do think he is slightly more powerful in both. You have argued tons of times that battlefield experience is more important then training experience, and Malak fought tougher enemy's then Dooku did in more years of war.

Originally posted by Fishy
Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.

Far from because Malak would logically do the same, it happened throughout every culture in all ages, why would it not happen in Star Wars? If its possible there its possible.

No we don't know if they tried, we know the most powerful tried however and they all failed. Bastila says so in the Holocron. Now some of these Masters would have to be with the most powerful. Of course they could have died already, but I don't know.

There is no real difference, Malak lost from Revan Dooku lost from Yoda well he would have if he didn't run away. It hardly matters, all I am saying is that the only real challenge Dooku had since he turned dark was Yoda and he lost that.

All of Kotor, front line general, Legendary duellist, great fighter, incredibly powerful, the Star Forge, he was second in command. Its like saying Ragnos never fought anybody. Possible but so unlikely that it makes me laugh.

We don't know that, now do we. I haven't seen Dooku use lightning that killed somebody on the other hand maybe they were really weak padawans, the fact is that Malak could use the force everybit as well as Dooku from what we have seen.

Why would they have to be weaker then the Council Members? People that are not in the council can be more powerful then people that are, especially after years of war.

Not just 6 years of war, but 6 years of Frontline wars against a lot of opponents. The Clone wars were not as hard as many other wars, especially not for Jedi. How many Jedi do we know of that Dooku fought? Or how much would you guess, Dooku doesn't seem like a front line general so even an estimated guess would keep it at a low number. With Malak I would guess a lot higher. Malak knows more about fighting in real life then Dooku does.

A few things.

First off, the "masters" mentioned in Bastila's holocron were, to my knowledge, never called masters at all, and if they were considered masters it is because they were the ones able to scrap to the top of the heap in the short Sith civil war that followed Revan's leave. This doesn't mean that they were particularly powerful or even on par with a jedi master. So it is best to not confuse the two.

Second, if you listen to the intro of KOTOR II, it says "We have hunted down and slain all the jedi" or something very close to that. The emphasis is that the majority of the Jedi were slain on the run. Meaning? They did not die in battle against Sith while Malak stood on some hilltop challenging those few stragglers who got close. The Jedi Order was hunted down and slain primarily by the stealth Force-feeding assassins under Sion and the beast that was Nihilus.

Third, Malak is perhaps more war seasoned, and I'm assuming he had access to Sith lord Dooku didn't; this topped with his great lightsaber and his formidable size and strength give him certain advantages. But Dooku could still defeat him, it just wouldn't be an easy fight at all.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
A few things.

First off, the "masters" mentioned in Bastila's holocron were, to my knowledge, never called masters at all, and if they were considered masters it is because they were the ones able to scrap to the top of the heap in the short Sith civil war that followed Revan's leave. This doesn't mean that they were particularly powerful or even on par with a jedi master. So it is best to not confuse the two.

Second, if you listen to the intro of KOTOR II, it says "We have hunted down and slain all the jedi" or something very close to that. The emphasis is that the majority of the Jedi were slain on the run. Meaning? They did not die in battle against Sith while Malak stood on some hilltop challenging those few stragglers who got close. The Jedi Order was hunted down and slain primarily by the stealth Force-feeding assassins under Sion and the beast that was Nihilus.

Third, Malak is perhaps more war seasoned, and I'm assuming he had access to Sith lord Dooku didn't; this topped with his great lightsaber and his formidable size and strength give him certain advantages. But Dooku could still defeat him, it just wouldn't be an easy fight at all.

I'm talking about the Jedi Masters that joined Malak and Revan and couldn't control the Star Forge, so the masters I am talking about are as powerful as the Jedi Masters, more powerful then most because one of them at least was a councillor.

Hunted down and slain, can be seen in many ways... Its clear that the Jedi were losing the war, so they were hunted down in that way. I guess it depends on how you look at it, but its pretty much impossible to hunt most of them down.

Now your argument about Nihilus? Nihilus wasn't around back then, well he was but he wasn't fighting he wasn't eating them that much is clear so he didn't kill any Jedi at all until after Malak his time.

And i'm not saying Dooku can't defeat him, well actually I did, but I didn't mean it like that. Dooku can defeat Malak, I just think Malak has better chances of winning.

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm talking about the Jedi Masters that joined Malak and Revan and couldn't control the Star Forge, so the masters I am talking about are as powerful as the Jedi Masters, more powerful then most because one of them at least was a councillor.

Hunted down and slain, can be seen in many ways... Its clear that the Jedi were losing the war, so they were hunted down in that way. I guess it depends on how you look at it, but its pretty much impossible to hunt most of them down.

Now your argument about Nihilus? Nihilus wasn't around back then, well he was but he wasn't fighting he wasn't eating them that much is clear so he didn't kill any Jedi at all until after Malak his time.

And i'm not saying Dooku can't defeat him, well actually I did, but I didn't mean it like that. Dooku can defeat Malak, I just think Malak has better chances of winning.

But we have no evidence of such masters trying before the Jedi Civil War, since Revan was in power, and then it went to Malak. As for after the defeat of Malak, the only people Bastila refers to are Sith who managed to survive and make it to Korriban or who were (And this is perhaps the majority) already there at the academy. Now, we have no way at all of knowing the level of knowledge and power of these individuals (Who were, by the sounds of it, the riffraff who didn't get in Revan's way) nor do we know if there were any jedi masters of any potency in the group. However, we can infer that Sion was amongst the group (Since he is said to be among the Jedi who survived the hell on Korriban and made it offplanet) but we have no way of knowing whether or not he ever tried to control the Star Forge. My guess is (considering he's alive five years later) no.

(Edit: About paragraph two) Presumably, yes. But remember, Nihilus and SIon's crew had unusual methods of tracking down the jedi. ONly those who hid in special places were effectively hidden. As Atton says, those whoweren't killed in the Jedi Civil War itself switched off lightsabers a long time ago, so we can say that the majority of jedi were slain since non-jedi faded from view (and were likely killed anyways)

Nihilus came into being AFTER Malachov V. He was a factor in the killing of jedi AFTER (at the very least) the defeat of Malak because obviously he drove the jedi to convene on Katarr and then destroyed them.

And for the last point, I agree. Dooku certainly has much more experience behind him, but Malak has a few things which can work in his favor. And from what we see via FMV and cutscenes, Malak does have a rather powerful command of the Force, which may or may not give him standing against Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
But we have no evidence of such masters trying before the Jedi Civil War, since Revan was in power, and then it went to Malak. As for after the defeat of Malak, the only people Bastila refers to are Sith who managed to survive and make it to Korriban or who were (And this is perhaps the majority) already there at the academy. Now, we have no way at all of knowing the level of knowledge and power of these individuals (Who were, by the sounds of it, the riffraff who didn't get in Revan's way) nor do we know if there were any jedi masters of any potency in the group. However, we can infer that Sion was amongst the group (Since he is said to be among the Jedi who survived the hell on Korriban and made it offplanet) but we have no way of knowing whether or not he ever tried to control the Star Forge. My guess is (considering he's alive five years later) no.

(Edit: About paragraph two) Presumably, yes. But remember, Nihilus and SIon's crew had unusual methods of tracking down the jedi. ONly those who hid in special places were effectively hidden. As Atton says, those whoweren't killed in the Jedi Civil War itself switched off lightsabers a long time ago, so we can say that the majority of jedi were slain since non-jedi faded from view (and were likely killed anyways)

Nihilus came into being AFTER Malachov V. He was a factor in the killing of jedi AFTER (at the very least) the defeat of Malak because obviously he drove the jedi to convene on Katarr and then destroyed them.

And for the last point, I agree. Dooku certainly has much more experience behind him, but Malak has a few things which can work in his favor. And from what we see via FMV and cutscenes, Malak does have a rather powerful command of the Force, which may or may not give him standing against Dooku.

Sion lives so he didn't try that much is certain, but you brought up a pretty good point there. The most powerful tried, Sion didn't try. And Sion sure as hell isn't weak. He could have been weaker years earlier, but not all that much weaker becuase he couldn't have put his body back together if he was. So if Sion didn't even try, that must mean something.

Nihilus came after Malachor V but didn't do anything until after Malak, you would have known about in Kotor if he did. The Jedi council would have contacted you about it, or would have launched a new war immediately, something would have happened. And you probably would have noticed on your own anyways.

Like I already said, slain can be seen in many different ways. If Malak faces a Jedi and that Jedi is weak he slays him easily too. If Atton does it through tricks he slays him too, its just how you look at it. Seeing as it was a war, I prefer to think that many of them died on the battlefield.

And a great many did die on the battlefield, but the real danger (As the KOTOR council tells you) was from people being captured or turned. And then you get the Sith side from Atton, who tells you that they used to kill and capture jedi and try to turn them or eliminate them. So this leads me to believe that the biggest threat to the jedi was not really the war (as the Republic was getting bent over the barrel on that one) but was the shadow war waged by the new sith.

And about Sion: he wasn't weak, I don't think. But he obviously thought he was weaker than Revan. Not the exile, but Revan.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And a great many did die on the battlefield, but the real danger (As the KOTOR council tells you) was from people being captured or turned. And then you get the Sith side from Atton, who tells you that they used to kill and capture jedi and try to turn them or eliminate them. So this leads me to believe that the biggest threat to the jedi was not really the war (as the Republic was getting bent over the barrel on that one) but was the shadow war waged by the new sith.

I doubt it, listen to Bastila. Whats more effective then turning your enemy against his allies, or whatever she says.

Killing a Jedi sucks, but when that Jedi turns Dark... Now that hurts badly...

And yeah Sion wasn't weak, which means that the one's that tried weren't weak either, because by all logical standards they would have to be more powerful then Sion. And none of them could control the Star Forge, Malak could so he is more powerful then people who are more powerful then Sion. Who is pretty good himself.

Originally posted by Fishy
I doubt it, listen to Bastila. Whats more effective then turning your enemy against his allies, or whatever she says.

Killing a Jedi sucks, but when that Jedi turns Dark... Now that hurts badly...

And yeah Sion wasn't weak, which means that the one's that tried weren't weak either, because by all logical standards they would have to be more powerful then Sion. And none of them could control the Star Forge, Malak could so he is more powerful then people who are more powerful then Sion. Who is pretty good himself.

On that last part, not neccessarily true. Sion could have very well heeded Bastila's advice out of fear and not tried to use the Star Forge, and then when other, weaker Sith tried and died, he thought better of it and find a way off planet.

To say that Sion didn't (apparently) try to use the Star Forge and thus he was weaker than those who tried and died doesn't follow. Back to my main point, we have no way of knowing or even of infering the power of the people who did try, only that they were obviously under the requirements for the Star Forge. And again, we have no proof that Revan didn't sabotage it in some way so that it would kill people. I mean, the guy was a genius... why would he just leave the Star Forge around when he knew of all people how dangerous it was?

If he would have sabotaged the Star Forge he would have made it so that either he could use it or nobody. There is no reason he would allow Malak to use it. I mean once Malak died that apprentice would have to take over. Revan would effectively have destroyed the star forge after just two people used it. It would be incredibly stupid, especially if he wanted an empire to last.

If he didn't then he should have made it so that only he could use it. Revan would have no reason to grant the power to Malak, he was the Sith Lord Malak was the apprentice why would he allow Malak to use it?

On the Sion thing, well it seems logical to me. It doesn't look to me like Sion has much to fear or ever had, he just wants to do something maybe revenge? Why would he not try everything he can to become more powerful. If he fails then he fails but shit happens, if he succeeds then he will rule. Sion seems like one that would try it, unless of course he knew he couldn't.

Alright, two things:

On Revan sabotaging the Star Forge, I mean this is AFTER the defeat of Malak, since after that point no one can control it, obviously. They all die. And Revan himself stopped using the Star Forge for a reason, and that reason was robably he knew what happened to the Ratakan empire who used it previously, and he wasn't ready for that kinda self pwnage.

On Sion, Sion was obviously jealous of and inferior to Revan as he says himself. Imagine him back then, when he was not as powerful as he was in KOTOR II, five years later... If Bastila, the second in command, told everyone (as she says) not to try and control the Star Forge on Revan's orders, do you think he is likely to be the first person to try? And assuming he wasn't the first person to try, do you think he would still be willing to try after this point? Perhaps, but most likely not. He could achieve his goals in other ways, and eventually, he did.

Like I said. This is a hard damn fight. Dooku is the better duelist. His style was around in Malak's time, and Dooku is what? Twice Malak's age? I think Dooku would win. But not by much.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Alright, two things:

On Revan sabotaging the Star Forge, I mean this is AFTER the defeat of Malak, since after that point no one can control it, obviously. They all die. And Revan himself stopped using the Star Forge for a reason, and that reason was robably he knew what happened to the Ratakan empire who used it previously, and he wasn't ready for that kinda self pwnage.

On Sion, Sion was obviously jealous of and inferior to Revan as he says himself. Imagine him back then, when he was not as powerful as he was in KOTOR II, five years later... If Bastila, the second in command, told everyone (as she says) not to try and control the Star Forge on Revan's orders, do you think he is likely to be the first person to try? And assuming he wasn't the first person to try, do you think he would still be willing to try after this point? Perhaps, but most likely not. He could achieve his goals in other ways, and eventually, he did.

Hmm you could be right there, Revan could have sabotaged the Star Forge, but there is absolutely no evidence for that, its some heavy speculation.

On Sion, well he might have tried if he was more powerful then the first one that tried. If he was not of course he wouldn't, I don't see why he wouldn't if he was more powerful. Really he has no real reason to stay away from the Star Forge if he was the most powerful around, he could always try. It would be worth it, its the only way he could ever trully rule.

malak was one of the first sith ..... he may have less expierience that way..the dark side is a new thing at this time and dooku has studied both sides longer than malak did malak was new to the force when he drove away the mandalorians from the temple also he changed his view on the force without considering the possibilities...but dooku had given much thought to the dark and light side and spent many many years working for both sides