The Phoenix Force: Where does it say in any comic Phoenix is part of God?

Originally posted by demigawd
That's actually an excellent point. Since it was revealed that Phoenix is powered by future life, we know for a fact that its power isn't unlimited. The universe itself is not perpetual, it's finite. Eventually all life comes to an end, and even all potential for life comes to an end, leading to the destruction of the universe. So it can only draw power of up to the total amount of future life, which is NOT an infinite number. This shows that even the Phoenix Force has a limit.

What's going to happen down the line? Are babies going to start being still born? And everything is going to just stop being able to reprduce? Are things going to sudden;y go sterile eventually?

And for that matter are their "souls" in the MU? Silly question obviously thre is some sort of "spirit" otherwise that thing with Psyloke's death would be really wierd. That and I think it was Roma, back in texas when the X-men sacrifised themselves. . .

Anyway is there reincarnation?

Saying that there are a finite number of future generations raises interesting questions.

Like what happens to the potential life that would be born to a planet consumed by the big G? is it snuffed out? or is it not distributed among planets like that?

Anyway I've not put much stock in handbooks, characters seem to exxceed limits placed in the books all the time.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Is it? is the potential for future life really finite?

What's going to happen down the line? Are babies going to start being still born? And everything is going to just stop being able to reprduce? Are things going to sudden;y go sterile eventually?

And for that matter are their "souls" in the MU? Silly question obviously thre is some sort of "spirit" otherwise that thing with Psyloke's death would be really wierd. That and I think it was Roma, back in texas when the X-men sacrifised themselves. . .

Anyway is there reincarnation?

Saying that there are a finite number of future generations raises interesting questions.

Like what happens to the potential life that would be born to a planet consumed by the big G? is it snuffed out? or is it not distributed among planets like that?

Anyway I've not put much stock in handbooks, characters seem to exxceed limits placed in the books all the time.

Given that Phoenix own role is to destroy the universe, I'd say that there's a finite potential for future life. Now what you COULD say is that the creation cycle is infinite because a new universe will take its place, with a whole new set of future life, and it's something I considered, but ultimately dismissed it because each new universe bonds with a different manifestation of the Phoenix. That manifestation of the Phoenix then uses the power of future life in that universe, and its range is from the time the universe was created to the time it, too ends. I don't believe that one manifestation of the Phoenix would draw potential life energy from the universe of another. That's why I say it's finite, even if the multiversal creation cycle or the number of alternate realities is infinite

As for reincarnation - it doesn't matter. You can only be reincarnated for as long as there's a universe to be reincarnated into. And if there were reincarnation, that actually further limits the amount of life for Phoenix to work with. If much life is recycled, then that means that there's less potential new life than we thought...it's all the same old life. That may mean that there was a pre-defined number in the first place - which means potential NEW life is almost 0.

The Handbook statement is invented by the Handbook. Galactus himself told phoenix that her draws on future life. The Handbook just recounted that.

Well I meant my vague musings as more of a general thing rather than related to the phoenix. 😄

Anyway, The Jean Grey being one with the phoenix force is quite simple. I think I found an analogy: Like a symbiote, the two combined as one are greater than the sum of its parts. Jean grey basically serving as a tool to give the force the focus it needs to do its work, and jean gets the power

Jean Grey - Eddie Brock
Other hosts - Any other person
Phoenix Force - Venom Symbiote
Phoenix - Venom

The best Venom is Eddie, the best Phoenix is Jean

Does that explain it any better at all? 😬

That's how I see the being one thing. 😕

Originally posted by Creshosk
Is it? is the potential for future life really finite?

Read "Manifold: Time" by Stephen Baxter. Scifi on a grand scale with cool speculation.

In any event, now that scientists think the universe may expand forever at an ever-accelerating rate, the question hinges on whether there will be energy sources in the farthest of futures. Either that, or humankind will have to migrate to another, younger universe.

Phoenix.

When Phoenix first appeared in Uncanny X-men 101 there was no fancy Phoenix Force who possessed Jean Grey, decided to bestow its power on her or decided to take on her form. Phoenix was the union between Jean Grey and the power of creation. The radiation of the space shuttle burned up Jeans body triggering her latent potential and she reformed as Phoenix. Back then Phoenix was literally Jean it was just her having reached her ultimate potential as a psi:

Back then Phoenix was just the pinnacle of mutation. Jean hooked up to a primal force of creation second only to the supreme being.:

The power she tapped into had no name, it wasnt sentient (as it would later become). It was just the power of creation which she could channel and manipulate as a result of her ultimate potential being realised. Jean took on the name Phoenix and the firebird was merely a physical manifestation of her power, meant to symbolise her death and rebirth.

Classic X-men 24 Vacation

In this issue when talking to Mastermind about her power she says that Phoenix is just a name for herself and nothing more.

After Jean completed her Phoenix work by healing the M’kraan crystal. She instinctively created a series of psychic circuit breakers to cut her off from the majority of her power. It was no longer required for day to day applications as a member of the X-men. However as they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. Jean secretly loved the power she had as Phoenix. Mastermind and the White Queen picked up on this and over time they nurtured a lust within her a craving for her former power levels. The circuit breakers slowly started to break away as a result Dark Phoenix the star eater was born.

THE DARK PHOENIX SAGA

Originally Jean was supposed to just destroy a star however John Byrne took a dislike to Phoenix, he deemed her to powerful therefore he made her a mass murderer by adding panels where she destroyed the D'bari system and the Shi'ar ship.

Jean was then supposed to have a psychic lobotomy to remove her psychic powers but Byrne felt that a mass murderer couldn’t be seen as getting away so lightly therefore he had Jean commit suicide. (Theres a What If which details what would have happened if Jean had had the lobotomy)

1986 RETCON

Jean was a very popular character and fans were outraged at her death and the fact that she had become a mass murderer. Therefore Marvel made up a plan to bring back Jean 6 years later for X-Factor without her being tainted by her crimes of the past. They made her energy signature a seperate firebird entity unto itself that took on Jeans form and that was responsible for the destruction. That took the heat off of Jean and made her "pure" again. They then had Jean reborn from the energy cocoon with no idea of what had happened. With Phoenix being a seperate entity, Marvel then had to come up with another origin for it. Thats where the whole Feron origin came in.

Feron origin

http://hem.passagen.se/hggblom1/phoenix/phoenix.htm

This Phoenix was somewhat depowered and lowered in the cosmic hierarchy in comparison. It was merely a nexus for the psychic energies of all sentient life as opposed to the original phoenix interpretation which was Jean in union with the primal force of creation a power second only to The One Above All (Marvels God). This Phoenix Force was born with the advent of the Big Bang as opposed to manifesting as it. It embodied that moment. As an elemental which tapped into the powers of the universe, this Phoenix Force was sustained by the creation cycle. If it chose to become sentient it unwittingly tapped into the life forces of unborn generations. This Phoenix Force had no higher purpose it was just an elemental, that bonded to those it felt enamoured by.

Classic X-men

Chris Claremont despised what the retcon had turned his creation into. He had intended Jean to literally be Phoenix and he felt that making the firebird a separate entity cheapened the DP Saga and made Jeans sacrifice at the end irrelevant.

The retcon was editorially imposed to bring back Jean for X-Factor without the stain of the D’Bari genocide.In a very hypocritical way,Phoenix seems to have all the guilt (even if she has copied Jean in every detail,body and soul) Jean is pure as a white dove (it’s her humanity that forced the “entity” to commit suicide) and the pathos of the original DP saga is retroactively destroyed.
Claremont builds his story upon the flashbacks shown in F4,which he copies almost word for word,but expands on them,and in this way,while not directly challenging the retcon,leaves open the possibility of a different interpretation:

“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”

Here the golden woman on the shuttle says she derives from Jean. She manifests on to the physical plane via Jean consciousness. This hinted at the Kaballah idea that our archetypal forms exist in the Crown (a level of consciousness) prior to our physical birth in creation. This golden woman was Jeans archetypal form. Her Phoenix self. This idea was later developed in New X-men by Morrison. (More on that later) Additionally in Excalibur 64 when Rachel asks to speak to the true form of Phoenix she appears as the Jean Grey golden woman:

X-men Forever

This title was the first to explicitly show a greater purpose for the Phoenix Force and the first to hint that being an avatar was to do with genetic potential:

X-Men Forever 3 : All Of God's Creatures ...

Prosh has sent Jean back in time;she revives the scene of classic X-men 43 between Death and Phoenix. Death tells Jean the Phoenix Force chose her but Jean chose the Phoenix, too,to save her friends but also out of hunger for infinite power.Death shows her the Universal Forces and says that they were scared of her more than anything else,because she represents the unlimited potential of humanity and threatened the very fabric of all reality.

Comment
-Here Phoenix seems to be both a cosmic force and the unlimited potential of Jean.

X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today

The Stranger planned to use Phoenix via Jean (hinting at a genetic connection) to speed up human evolution in order to collapse the Universe and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality.Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that the Universe continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities and bring the Universe to its end.The Universe will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.In time humanity will evolve into Eternity,and may survive into the new Universe as the new Galactus.

Comments
- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others.Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,is a force.It is the very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever.

-In X-Men Adventures 12, it is indeed the Phoenix Force that allows to Galan to bind with the sentience of the Universe and survive the destruction of the old one it was bringing about.

New X-men

In 2002 New X-men scrapped the 86 retcon and made Jean and Phoenix one again. It made clear that being Phoenix was a mutation. The ultimate mutation mirroring Chris C's original ideas that Phoenix was Jeans "ultimate potential as a psi". Phoenix was the final stage of mutation possible and whilst other beings could reach this point of "ultimate mutation" (Quentin Quire was shown to have evolved into Phoenix in New Xmen 154) Jean had a special relationship with this consciousness and was the closest thing it had to human form, therefore making her the White Phoenix of Crown. Like the original idea behind the character, Jean is Phoenix there is no seperate sentient force that appears in creation and acts on its own. Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. As per current continuity that firebird is an energy signature not a being unto itself. The avatars are the Phoenixes. They tap into the power of creation they are linked up to the Crown/the Phoenix consciousness as a part of their mutations but they are the Phoenixes.

Grant Morrison developed Chris C’s Kaballah based idea about archetypal forms existing in the white hot room. When she exterminates the Termids she says to bumbleboy,the x-men ambassador,that he’s going to experience “total absorption in the White Hot Room”.He (reduced to a skull kept alive by Phoenix) says that it’s not too bad,it’s like he has done it before or he’s doing it again,or...she replies:”shh.You were always there,waiting for yourself to arrive”.

In issue 152 of New X-men Jean is reborn into reality via a Phoenix egg and shes born as the golden woman. The very same woman who spoke to Jean on the space shuttle. This was a conscious effort on Morrisons part to show that they are indeed one and the same. Not only by showing that the golden woman (who many thought to be a separate Phoenix entity) is actually Jeans Phoenix self her archetypal form, but he also introduced the egg/cocoon into the Phoenix life cycle, meaning that Jean was indeed the Dark Phoenix. He hinted at this revelation earlier in the series when Jean called the Dark Phoenix costume her former costume as opposed to Phoenixes costume.

The power of the Phoenix is telekinetic godhood. The ultimate power. Total control of matter down to a sub atomic level. With that you can have any power you want generate any energy in any amount hence its title as the “ultimate mutation” or earlier the “ultimate potential”. Sublime/Beast became a Phoenix by injecting himself with her genetic matter. Another point which shows that Jean is Phoenix.

Jeans Phoenix self, her connection with the Crown (which itself is beyond time /space) predated her physical birth. That’s how she was able to talk to herself on the space shuttle. Her Phoenix self could manifest on the physical plane via Jeans mind as to be a Phoenix is to be one with the Crown/Phoenix consciousness.

Endsong confirmed that Jean and Phoenix are indeed one and the same:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368313&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

Theres not a lot more to say.

Originally posted by demigawd
Given that Phoenix own role is to destroy the universe, I'd say that there's a finite potential for future life. Now what you COULD say is that the creation cycle is infinite because a new universe will take its place, with a whole new set of future life, and it's something I considered, but ultimately dismissed it because each new universe bonds with a different manifestation of the Phoenix. That manifestation of the Phoenix then uses the power of future life in that universe, and its range is from the time the universe was created to the time it, too ends. I don't believe that one manifestation of the Phoenix would draw potential life energy from the universe of another. That's why I say it's finite, even if the multiversal creation cycle or the number of alternate realities is infinite

As for reincarnation - it doesn't matter. You can only be reincarnated for as long as there's a universe to be reincarnated into. And if there were reincarnation, that actually further limits the amount of life for Phoenix to work with. If much life is recycled, then that means that there's less potential new life than we thought...it's all the same old life. That may mean that there was a pre-defined number in the first place - which means potential NEW life is almost 0.

The Handbook statement is invented by the Handbook. Galactus himself told phoenix that her draws on future life. The Handbook just recounted that.

Speculation based on an outdated perspective. The retcon idea of a sentient Phoenix Force that can act on its own and that is sustained by life unborn and so on is not current continuity. That Phoenix Force tapped into the energies of life. As you know from Fantastic Four the Phoenix Force is the energies of life, it is that well spring. Your debating with the wrong Phoenix interpretation in mind. Theyre fundamentally different so you cant apply that to arguments concerning current continuity. The Phoenix Force now is just a source of power and a level of consciousness the avatars have a connection with. They are the Phoenixes,the ones that do the work in creation. The Crown doesnt.

Evidence of a higher level of consciousness:

Giving Mastermind an insight into her perceptions

Rachel doing the same to Beyonder:

The Phoenix avatars can access a higher consciousness. I think ive proved that.

When Jean is carrying out her Phoenix work she is all powerful, yes her human side still makes for vulnerabilities however noone short of the supreme being himself is 100% omnipotent and untouchable and her powers can protect her anyway so what the hey. She does indeed have access to a higher consciousness when she needs guidance and with the conditions of these forums in mind (i.e no Plot devices/CIS etc) i dont believe anything short of another aspect of God will be able to touch her as shes presented in the current Phoenix interpretation.

If you were to say Dark Phoenix then as aforementioned id say noone short of Eternity (whom Dark Phoenix destroyed in a What If anyway)

Umm... You do realize that your theory contridicts what was just established as "current continuity" by the handbook, right?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Umm... You [b]do realize that your theory contridicts what was just established as "current continuity" by the handbook, right? [/B]

Im trying to download that at the moment cos im broke lol. Doesnt it still talk of the Phoenix consciousness at the end? Last years did and mentioned how via the Phoenix Force Jean possessed telekinetic godhood. Whats changed?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t379750.html

That is the most horrible bio on Phoenix ive ever seen.

I disagree with it but as its an official marvel source theres not a lot more i can say. It ignores the Kaballah connection Grant Morrison and Chris C enforced, in favour of the 86 retcon depiction and as such according to that Handbook, Phoenix isnt an official aspect of God. Just a primal force of creation which by its nature suggests certain things but nothing i can use as fact in debate without future on panel support. In this case i cant automatically place her on the same level as the likes of Spectre and The Source and other aspects despite whats been previously shown.

New X-men just doesnt make sense now at all. None of it.

At least it clarifies that Jean and the Force are indeed one and the same and that she is the closest thing it has to a human body as i said. But as for all the God stuff yes it was indicated in the comics but that obviously isnt being followed up in the near future.

It does however support X-men Forevers take on events i.e Phoenix being a constant in creation co-ordinating the replacement of the abstracts every creation cycle. It also confirms that X-men adventures 12 is canon as i said which itself showed Phoenix and LT as co-workers with Phoenix protecting the multiverse from corruption at the end of existence and bonding Galan to the cosmic egg where he was to be gestated by Eternity to be reborn into creation along with Phoenix via the Big Bang.

So with all of those series supported Phoenix is still greater than the abstracts.

X-men Forever is still canon so make of that what you will.

Whats really changed is that there is no support for the God connection and Phoenix isnt as untouchable as she once was. Some poor showings have to now be taken into account which is a shame. Jean still has her telekinetic godhood. The ultimate power!!! lol.

Im off to cry in a corner now. 🙁

Well GS, it's rather obvious that Grant Morrison's arc on the X-Men is going the way of Onslaught. It never happened. The editors dweedle their thumbs and pretend it all never happened. So the Phoenix that Morrison tried to project is dead.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That is the most horrible bio on Phoenix ive ever seen.

I disagree with it but as its an official marvel source theres not a lot more i can say. It ignores the Kaballah connection Grant Morrison and Chris C enforced, in favour of the 86 retcon depiction and as such according to that Handbook, Phoenix isnt an official aspect of God. Just a primal force of creation which by its nature suggests certain things but nothing i can use as fact in debate without future on panel support. In this case i cant automatically place her on the same level as the likes of Spectre and The Source and other aspects despite whats been previously shown.

New X-men just doesnt make sense now at all. None of it.

At least it clarifies that Jean and the Force are indeed one and the same and that she is the closest thing it has to a human body as i said. But as for all the God stuff yes it was indicated in the comics but that obviously isnt being followed up in the near future.

It does however support X-men Forevers take on events i.e Phoenix being a constant in creation co-ordinating the replacement of the abstracts every creation cycle. It also confirms that X-men adventures 12 is canon as i said which itself showed Phoenix and LT as co-workers with Phoenix protecting the multiverse from corruption at the end of existence and bonding Galan to the cosmic egg where he was to be gestated by Eternity to be reborn into creation along with Phoenix via the Big Bang.

So with all of those series supported Phoenix is still greater than the abstracts.

X-men Forever is still canon so make of that what you will.

Whats really changed is that there is no support for the God connection and Phoenix isnt as untouchable as she once was. Some poor showings have to now be taken into account which is a shame. Jean still has her telekinetic godhood. The ultimate power!!! lol.

Im off to cry in a corner now. 🙁

I don't think Phoenix is above the abstracts but now is the wrong time to argue this point.

🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I don't think Phoenix is above the abstracts but now is the wrong time to argue this point.

🙂

What makes you say that? Her feats havent been retconned the nature of the Phoenix Force has been however. So it would still be greater than the abstracts if it came down to it.

X-men Adventures and X-men Forever are confirmed as canon now and they all support Phoenix being so regardless of its sometimes child like nature there are also times where it has displayed an omniscience and this feature of Phoenix is supported by its intelligence rating.

Either way i am so disillusioned with Marvel. How could they do this to my baby? 🙁

Originally posted by Draco69
Well GS, it's rather obvious that Grant Morrison's arc on the X-Men is going the way of Onslaught. It never happened. The editors dweedle their thumbs and pretend it all never happened. So the Phoenix that Morrison tried to project is dead.

Say it aint so. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Say it aint so. 🙁

Well yeah. Look at House of M. The ENTIRE saga is just a ploy to "fix" Grant Morrison's "mess".

No more mutant schools/clubs/cultures, etc.

Magneto didn't destroy New York. It was Scarlet Witch's fault.

Phoenix is just a cosmic powered canary. Not an extension of God.

EVERYTHING that Grant Morrison created and established has been reduced to rubbles.

Even Emma Frost seems to be returning to her villainous ways...

I think its time to change my sig. I cant bear to look at it anymore. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What makes you say that? Her feats havent been retconned the nature of the Phoenix Force has been however. So it would still be greater than the abstracts if it came down to it.

X-men Adventures and X-men Forever are confirmed as canon now and they all support Phoenix being so regardless of its sometimes child like nature there are also times where it has displayed an omniscience and this feature of Phoenix is supported by its intelligence rating.

Either way i am so disillusioned with Marvel. How could they do this to my baby? 🙁

Its need to understand the universe shows the sway the abstracts have over it this is a point I made months ago. When you have need and desire you are being affected by other forces. Abstract concepts.

🙂