Originally posted by demigawd
Then we're agreed.YES. And that's what I take issue with. I don't have a problem with his many essays showing what the PF's role in the universe is. I have a problem with his saying that Jean = PF and as such can defeat ANY character in the omniverse.
I put Jean Grey, operating to the fullest of her abilities, a bit above Galactus - like Cresh. Roughly Celestial level.
And thats why I actually Troll him! that and its fun! 🙂
Originally posted by demigawd
I don't really need to reply to any of your individual points. It all come down to this:The reasons all of these factors exist in these losses is because, at the end of the day....she's human. She's one with the POWER of the Phoenix, but she lacks the consciousnes of the Phoenix. As long as she only has the former, her power will be limited and she'll continue to have "reasons" for being bested.
No. Jean Grey is Phoenix and as such has reached a level of consciousness (The Phoenix consciousness/The Crown) which puts her in union with marvels supreme being. As a Phoenix, the top Phoenix she has as much power as she needs to get the job done. Phoenixes are all about passion and emotion they embody it. Displaying such qualities doesnt mean she couldnt take on higher beings. The feats she's pulled off whilst displaying emotion, feats beyond any universal being indicate that. You have formed an idea about what an all powerful entity is and as a Phoenix doesnt fit into that youre discounting her. Phoenix is quite apparently a higher being of a different nature. Maybe you need to re-define your criteria or at least add in a sub category.
At the end of the day all activities on the physical plane are carried out by an avatar. That includes everything to do with the creation cycle. Its an avatar who co-ordinates the end of creation and the replacment of the abstracts and LT for example. As the top avatar we can assume thats Jean. Plus X-men Forever more or less showed that anyway. So they must have a degree of all-knowingness at least to perform such feats. Jean for example had the know how to amputate a timeline and then telekinetically restructure an entire universe on a whim. Yeah she was told what to do but she wasnt told how to do it and thats the crux of the matter. With that in mind and considering the forum rules (i.e most current interpretation, at the height of their power) how can you put her at Celestial level? Thats just illogical. Weaker hosts such as Rachel, Giraud or Kid Omega but not Jean.
Originally posted by demigawd
But let's see where you're at now, just for fun.How does Jean Grey do against
In-betweener
Love and Hate
Chaos and Order
Infinity
Death
Eternity
Thanos with the IG
Spectre
Saint of Killers
Living Tribunal
Lucifer
Michael
Great Evil Beast
Thanos with HOTUEverybody is welcome to particpate. I just want to nail down GS to a position on this once and for all.
If Jean has jurisdiction to take down these beings (and presuming that TOAA/Yahweh are one and the same as per crossover conditions) then the White Crown Phoenix would be able to take out any of those beings with the exception of GEB who she would stalemate and Saint of Killers who im unsure about and so wont take a stance. You may object to me thinking she can beat Thanos with HOTU however if it truly is gods power and Jean has jurisdiction then it stands to reason.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I still think she's like the spectre, given as much power as she needs to get the job done, if she isn't supposed to do a job she's not given any power. . . Beyond the way people precevie her to be normally.
Agreed. 😉
Originally posted by demigawd
Then we're agreed.YES. And that's what I take issue with. I don't have a problem with his many essays showing what the PF's role in the universe is. I have a problem with his saying that Jean = PF and as such can defeat ANY character in the omniverse.
I put Jean Grey, operating to the fullest of her abilities, a bit above Galactus - like Cresh. Roughly Celestial level.
Ive never said that ever Demi. People (i.e the threadmakers) always forget to specify the conditons of the thread. Thats their fault. There are many different versions of Phoenix. Your fault is not acknowledging that and having a problem with me for quite rightly interpreting any non specified Phoenix thread as the all powerful (with jurisdiction) White Crown Phoenix. The outcome of a battle depends on which one it is. If a thread just states Phoenix Vs someone then as per the forum rules which are in place in all threads as default unless otherwise specified then it will be the White Crown Phoenix with jurisdiction. In which case she can beat pretty much anybody. Same with if someone states Jean Grey vs someone without specifying details. Yeah sometimes i do know theyre referring to pre retcon Jean Grey (when her and Phoenix were seperate) however they never specified that therefore im just making a point.
If someone were to say Jean without jurisdiction (i.e just finished her P work or before shes started it and got into Phoenix mode) I would say its anyones guess. Theres no way of knowing because since the Phoenix interpretation changed to what it currently is there hasnt been a Phoenix around when Phoenix work wasnt required. The previous interpretation had Phoenix just as a run of the mill cosmic entity who went around possessing whoever it took a fancy to. It was of a different nature and origin therefore its not entirely accurate to view it as a reflection of what non jurisction Jean can do.
If we were to look at the original incarnation of Phoenix which is virtually the same as the current interpretation we see that when shes not carrying out her Phoenix work she places limits on her power which she can strip away with time but limits nonetheless. In this form (mostly as Dark Phoenix) as she's temporarily cut off from her power she seeks it from outside sources such as novas, shes chased off Galactus, absorbed stars and in a what if even destroyed a universe. As such Id place this form of Phoenix at Eternity level at the very most. While she could regain her former power with time i believe any beings higher than Eternity would be able to take advantage of such restrictions and destroy her physical form before she could.
Originally posted by demigawd
I always saw Cresh as being GS's #1 supporter on the Phoenix stuff, but he actually has a pretty rational view of her, and there's little that I disagree with.So tell me....does ANYBODY here agree with GS' take on the Phoenix/PF/Jean Grey Holy Trinity? ANYBODY?
Nones said that they didnt agree with that. Youre confused my friend. People dont believe that Jean as Phoenix is all powerful all the time. Neither do I. 😄
Not gonna bother replying to anything else. You didn't say anything new....except this:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nones said that they didnt agree with that. Youre confused my friend. People dont believe that Jean as Phoenix is all powerful all the time. Neither do I. 😄
1)You didn't ALWAYS say that. You got ridiculed into saying it.
2)An all-powerful White Crown Phoenix has never been shown. It's in your head. If the White Crown Phoenix IS all-powerful and IS connected to the true consciousness of the Phoenix, then she wouldn't be confused and make the mistakes she did and have to ask for clarification from other Avatars and a computer, would she?
3)Even if an all-powerful White Crown Phoenix DID exist, why apply it to battles where they just say "Phoenix", when they're obviously referring to the Phoenix who has actually made appearences in comics - the one who has shown obvious vulnerabilities and the ability to be defeated
All-powerful White Crown Phoenix = Myth. There always have been and always will be limitations on her power by virtue of being human. How did she know how to amputate a timeline? How did Franklin know how to re-create a universe in exact detail at six years old, re-creating characters he's never heard of, much less knows about? How did Wanda re-create the history of the entire Marvel Universe in such detail? They're reality-manipulators...it's what they do! There's no more evidence of Jean having a higher consciousness than Wanda or Franklin.
Originally posted by demigawd
Not gonna bother replying to anything else. You didn't say anything new.
Utter Rubbish. In your post you took issue with the fact that i supposedly think because Jean and the Phoenix Consciousness are one that Phoenix can beat anybody in any circumstance. I pointed out your misconception and clarified.
Originally posted by demigawd
1)You didn't ALWAYS say that. You got ridiculed into saying it.
Puh-lease. You by your own admission dont read all of the Phoenix related threads so you are in no position to tell me what i said in them. I have always said that as one with an aspect of God when carrying out her Phoenix work, when something is in her jurisdiction then she is all powerful. Hence Whirlys talk of autonomy and so on. Your mistake certainly not mine. Dont confuse a threadmakers lack of specification for irrationality on my part. If you'd read the recent Dark Phoenix Vs Galactus thread you'd see such specification makes for a different stance from myself. Know your stuff before passing judgement.
Originally posted by demigawd
2)An all-powerful White Crown Phoenix has never been shown. It's in your head. If the White Crown Phoenix IS all-powerful and IS connected to the true consciousness of the Phoenix, then she wouldn't be confused and make the mistakes she did and have to ask for clarification from other Avatars and a computer, would she?
Sewage!! Your understanding of The White Crown Phoenix doesnt fit in to your criteria so as aforementioned youre discounting the character. As Phoenix Jean has pulled off feats beyond just about anyone shown in Marvel. On top of that there are feats that she is destined to perform as per the natural order such as the collapsing of creation and the co-ordination of the replacement of the abstracts and LT.
She (or at least the Phoenix consciousness) states in New X-men that as Phoenix Jean will inevitably win against all odds. Its the nature of the beast. With jurisdiction when carrying out her Phoenix work Jean beats just about anybody.
As you can see Jean is linked with the Phoenix consciousness. It takes over when required. The human side of Jean is the one who gets confused, the one who seeks anwers. She gets them from the Phoenix Consciousness. Through her link she not only has access to as much power as she requires to perform her duties but also to whatever she needs to know to carry out her duties. Your post indicates you've seen this already. You just didnt know what was going on. That was not a computer she was talking to it was the Phoenix consciousness the voice of God (or at least Marvels supreme being.) If you know anything of the Omega Point theory you'll see why the voice was computerised.
When Jean gets too close to her power, when it becomes too much for her human mind the Phoenix Consciousness takes over:
Originally posted by demigawd
3)Even if an all-powerful White Crown Phoenix DID exist, why apply it to battles where they just say "Phoenix", when they're obviously referring to the Phoenix who has actually made appearences in comics - the one who has shown obvious vulnerabilities and the ability to be defeated
The White Crown Phoenix has appeared in comics. You saw her amputate the Here Comes Tomorrow future, restructure 616 in the palm of her hand before altering events within 616 to ensure a new future took place. As Jean stated in The End creation needs a human touch and Phoenix is the right being to apply that. Her human side is just as important as her Phoenix side. Thats what makes a Phoenix so different to say the abstracts or LT. They have an insiders perspective, they are in touch with humanity, however when required they can consult the Phoenix consciousness as you saw or it takes over depending on the circumstances.
So by using the White Crown Phoenix in debates i am following forum rules because its what Jean is currently and its the height of her power.
Im just making a point that while there is one Jean Phoenix how she'd fare in battle depends on the circumstances. If she is the White Phoenix then aint nobody beating her.
If shes not involved with her Phoenix duties then her powers are supressed until the death of her body in which case the Phoenix consciousness is released to manifest wherever Jean is required. In such a case then she can be beaten. This is the circumstance you saw Jean in after saving the multiverse from M'kraan. That Phoenix is the one that should be specified in threads.
Originally posted by demigawd
All-powerful White Crown Phoenix = Myth. There always have been and always will be limitations on her power by virtue of being human. How did she know how to amputate a timeline? How did Franklin know how to re-create a universe in exact detail at six years old, re-creating characters he's never heard of, much less knows about? How did Wanda re-create the history of the entire Marvel Universe in such detail? They're reality-manipulators...it's what they do! There's no more evidence of Jean having a higher consciousness than Wanda or Franklin.
Again presenting unsupported opinion as fact. Have a re-read of New X-men not just posted scans and then get back to me. Jean knew how to perform her feats because she has a link with the Phoenix consciousness. As and when she requires it advises her and/or takes over. So yes The White Crown Phoenix does have a higher consciousness than Wanda or Franklin LOL. However as a Phoenix her human side is just as important to her job.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Agreed. 😉Ive never said that ever Demi. People (i.e the threadmakers) always forget to specify the conditons of the thread. Thats their fault. There are many different versions of Phoenix. Your fault is not acknowledging that and having a problem with me for quite rightly interpreting any non specified Phoenix thread as the all powerful (with jurisdiction) White Crown Phoenix. The outcome of a battle depends on which one it is. If a thread just states Phoenix Vs someone then as per the forum rules which are in place in all threads as default unless otherwise specified then it will be the White Crown Phoenix with jurisdiction. In which case she can beat pretty much anybody. Same with if someone states Jean Grey vs someone without specifying details. Yeah sometimes i do know theyre referring to pre retcon Jean Grey (when her and Phoenix were seperate) however they never specified that therefore im just making a point.
If someone were to say Jean without jurisdiction (i.e just finished her P work or before shes started it and got into Phoenix mode) I would say its anyones guess. Theres no way of knowing because since the Phoenix interpretation changed to what it currently is there hasnt been a Phoenix around when Phoenix work wasnt required. The previous interpretation had Phoenix just as a run of the mill cosmic entity who went around possessing whoever it took a fancy to. It was of a different nature and origin therefore its not entirely accurate to view it as a reflection of what non jurisction Jean can do.
If we were to look at the original incarnation of Phoenix which is virtually the same as the current interpretation we see that when shes not carrying out her Phoenix work she places limits on her power which she can strip away with time but limits nonetheless. In this form (mostly as Dark Phoenix) as she's temporarily cut off from her power she seeks it from outside sources such as novas, shes chased off Galactus, absorbed stars and in a what if even destroyed a universe. As such Id place this form of Phoenix at Eternity level at the very most. While she could regain her former power with time i believe any beings higher than Eternity would be able to take advantage of such restrictions and destroy her physical form before she could.
"temporarily cut off from her power she seeks it from outside sources such as novas, shes chased off Galactus, absorbed stars and in a what if even destroyed a universe. As such Id place this form of Phoenix at Eternity level at the very most. While she could regain her former power with time i believe any beings higher than Eternity would be able to take advantage of such restrictions and destroy her physical form before she could."
And yet she was kiled by mags ?😕
Hyperstorm was beaten by Glalactus ? I really can't see eternity loosing to magneto !
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In your post you took issue with the fact that i supposedly think because Jean and the Phoenix Consciousness are one that Phoenix can beat anybody in any circumstance. I pointed out your misconception and clarified.
So by using the White Crown Phoenix in debates i am following forum rules because its what Jean is currently and its the height of her power.
If she is the White Phoenix then aint nobody beating her.
Poor boy. You honestly don't know WHAT to think anymore, do you? "You're so stupid, Demi. I never said that Phoenix could beat anybody! I said that White Crown Phoenix could beat anybody. I didn't say she's always White Crown Phoenix, I said that I always use White Crown Phoenix in debates. Therefore, it's silly for you to say that I think Phoenix could beat anybody!"
😆 😆 😆
Think what you want. This discussion is over. 🙂
Sorry i forgot to post this .... I was having lunch; Pret a Manger you've got to love it !!!!!!!! Any way
“Its an avatar who co-ordinates the end of creation and the replacment of the abstracts and LT for example.”
Yes you have written this twice … when has she replaced the abstracts ? Hasn’t the L.T. always been the same ?
“As the top avatar we can assume that’s Jean.”
Another assumption … what evidence is there to support this, or is this as I suspect your interpretation ?
“So they must have a degree of all-knowingness at least to perform such feats.”
I think Demi covers this one quite nicely ;
‘How did Franklin know how to re-create a universe in exact detail at six years old, re-creating characters he's never heard of, much less knows about? How did Wanda re-create the history of the entire Marvel Universe in such detail? They're reality-manipulators...it's what they do! There's no more evidence of Jean having a higher consciousness than Wanda or Franklin.’
You’re response once again avoids the question! you’re original point was to illustrate JEAN as ‘all knowing’ …. ‘So they must have a degree of all-knowingness’ … Demi countered by suggesting that beings (who are known to not to be all knowing), can pull of similar feats. You’re response does little more than repeat what has been earlier !
“As Phoenix Jean has pulled off feats beyond just about anyone shown in Marvel…On top of that there are feats that she is destined to perform as per the natural order such as the collapsing of creation and the co-ordination of the replacement of the abstracts and LT.’
Mate this counters nothing and invites more questions …. Once again ‘when has she replaced the abstracts ? Hasn’t the L.T. always been the same ? ‘
I’ve seen that pic !!!!!! It vaguely shows those characters kneeling before the phoenix, everything else is you’re interpretation ! Once again another assumption, I think !
“states in New X-men that as Phoenix Jean will inevitably win against all odds.”
How many times has this been said about other characters !!!!!!! What’s more is that pics don’t even show this ! I’m very confused !
“As you can see Jean is linked with the Phoenix consciousness. It takes over when required. The human side of Jean is the one who gets confused, the one who seeks answers. She gets them from the Phoenix Consciousness.”
Doesn’t that contradict this :
“No. Jean Grey is Phoenix and as such has reached a level of consciousness (The Phoenix consciousness/The Crown) which puts her in union with marvels supreme being.”
Ooohh I’ve been waiting for this one …
“You just didnt know what was going on. That was not a computer she was talking to it was the Phoenix consciousness the voice of God (or at least Marvels supreme being.) If you know anything of the Omega Point theory you'll see why the voice was computerised. “
In the words of our dear friend whirly; ‘Where does it say she is part of god ?’ I think you’ll find the current X-men HB disagrees with you !
“Through her link she not only has access to as much power as she requires to perform her duties but also to whatever she needs to know to carry out her duties.”
Ooohh you mean like she did when she was facing Magneto … tell me how come this all powerful force was overcome by Shiar technology ? 😕
“When Jean gets too close to her power, when it becomes too much for her human mind the Phoenix Consciousness takes over:”
And yet I thought they where one and the same … first of all you are say she has total access to all the phoenix information. You then contradict yourself by stating then when she digs to deep it becomes too much for her and her human mind !!!!!! IMO it didn’t look like she was ‘digging’ to deep ! (NOT a deep as the hole you’ve dug yourself anyway) A couple of visions , is hardly ‘quantum awareness’ !!!!!!!!
“they are in touch with humanity, however when required they can consult the Phoenix consciousness as you saw or it takes over depending on the circumstances.”
…. But if they dig to deep it becomes too much !I thought I might reiterate that part !
“Again presenting unsupported opinion as fact. Have a re-read of New X-men not just posted scans and then get back to me. Jean knew how to perform her feats because she has a link with the Phoenix consciousness.”
We’ve proved that this can’t be the case !
1.) Other beings with out Omega point conciseness have performed similar feats !
2.) If she digs too deep into the phoenix conciseness it takes over … therefore she is no longer in control ! If she’s no longer in control she cannot use it for her own means … which is probably why she was beaten by magneto.
I’ve answered my original question so don’t bother answering it ! … “And yet she was killed by mags ?
Hyperstorm was beaten by Glalactus ? I really can't see eternity loosing to magneto !”
“So yes The White Crown Phoenix does have a higher consciousness than Wanda or Franklin LOL.”
This was never in doubt …. Although you havn’t actually proven it, I agree ! What a Weird person 😕
🙂
Originally posted by demigawd
Also - let's look at Whirly's "jgg" again. You'll notice that the vocal bubbles of Jean (black, white writing) DYING actually show that Phoenix was in control at the time it was defeated by Magneto. It sure didn't see that EMP coming, did it? 😆All-knowing my arse. 😆
*rip* *tear*
This is fun!
I know !!!!!!! 😄
Originally posted by demigawd
Poor boy. You honestly don't know WHAT to think anymore, do you? "You're so stupid, Demi. I never said that Phoenix could beat anybody! I said that White Crown Phoenix could beat anybody. I didn't say she's always White Crown Phoenix, I said that I always use White Crown Phoenix in debates. Therefore, it's silly for you to say that I think Phoenix could beat anybody!"😆 😆 😆
Think what you want. This discussion is over. 🙂
So waitaminute. Ive never said that Jean as Phoenix can beat anybody in any situation. You said i said that.
The White Crown Phoenix Jean with jurisdiction can beat just about anybody.
Unless specified and as per forum rules its only right that the White Crown Phoenix is used.
Ummm whats so funny? 😕
Originally posted by Fishy 500
"temporarily cut off from her power she seeks it from outside sources such as novas, shes chased off Galactus, absorbed stars and in a what if even destroyed a universe. As such Id place this form of Phoenix at Eternity level at the very most. While she could regain her former power with time i believe any beings higher than Eternity would be able to take advantage of such restrictions and destroy her physical form before she could."And yet she was kiled by mags ?😕
Hyperstorm was beaten by Glalactus ? I really can't see eternity loosing to magneto !
If you'd read the post properly you'd see that i said :
Theres no way of knowing because since the Phoenix interpretation changed to what it currently is there hasnt been a Phoenix around when Phoenix work wasnt required
I then went on to say if we were to look at the original interpretation then this is where i would place Jean without jurisdiction. Followed by what you quoted me on.
With that in mind how does Phoenix getting killed by Mags have any bearing on the situation?
"original interpretation then this is where i would place Jean without jurisdiction. Followed by what you quoted me on. "
But my friend, this means sweet FA, if she is now being killed by magneto !
unlesss
"changed to what it currently is there hasnt been a Phoenix around when Phoenix work wasnt required "
If that is the case ... is it the white rooms phoenix being killed by mags ?
Its not looking good is it ? 🙁
"With that in mind how does Phoenix getting killed by Mags have any bearing on the situation?"
A lot more than this does 🙂 : "to look at the original interpretation then this is where i would place Jean "
