The Phoenix Force: Where does it say in any comic Phoenix is part of God?

Started by GalacticStorm14 pages
Originally posted by Mindship
Is it not possible that Marvel adapted some aspects of mystical/Kabbalistic thinking for its Phoenix Force story elements? I doubt Marvel was covertly pushing Kabbalah, per se, in its comics. Probably someone (Stan Lee??) said, "Hey this would be cool for a character. Let's use this stuff," and took some ideas from column A, others from column B, and <poof> new character or power level to one-upmanship either a previous Marvel story or what DC was doing. No?

I agree. Some elements and concepts are used. Phoenix for example is presented as the power of creation and is a state of consciousness that those with the right genetic potential can reach. The hosts of this power are presented as seraphim who burn away that which doesnt work in creation. In real life the path between Tiphereth and Keter is even called the flight of the phoenix. So many ideas are borrowed and parrallels drawn however its not a complete translation.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix, he botched the job.

Reposted by the Whirly one

a friend of mine from another forum who is a comparative religions major wrote this.

in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.

What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.

Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff 🙂

still the best essay I have seen on it all 🙂 no offence GS

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix, he botched the job.

Reposted by the Whirly one

a friend of mine from another forum who is a comparative religions major wrote this.

in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.

What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.

Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff 🙂

We've established that he botched the job or at least wisely never included the complete translation however there is still a connection and Phoenix is represented as an aspect.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix
So why are we even having this conversation?

Who cares if he did a good job or botched it?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix

You know I think I'm going to save that and post it when WHirly starts to say anything about there being no kabbalah link. . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
still the best essay I have seen on it all 🙂 no offence GS

No thats cool. It is very good. And further highlights the connnection. Botched as it is.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know I think I'm going to save that and post it when WHirly starts to say anything about there being no kabbalah link. . .

I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless 🙂 I have also said I think the Kabbalah is just an idea and does not fit with the creation of the Marvel Universe hence the Rabbit Retcon. The whole Phoenix plot messed Marvel up in the same way JLA 1000000 messed up DC. Morrison has taken over from Byrne as Mr I create my own continuity, to hell if it fits.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So why are we even having this conversation?

Who cares if he did a good job or botched it?

Exactly. We're just going in circles here. If you agree theres a connection then this thread is over and thats the end of th ematter really.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless 🙂
No. You've always said that there was no link.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless 🙂

Not worthless. Flawed yes but that doesnt stop the fact that Phoenix is an aspect of Marvels supreme being. The flaws mean that you cant extrapolate however defining what is actually presented and highlighting its meaning as per Kaballah is cool.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We've established that he botched the job or at least wisely never included the complete translation however there is still a connection and Phoenix is represented as an aspect.

I like this bit a lot the analysis of the essay on the board

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Interesting how Alan Moore always does everything better 🙂
But now the RABBIT makes it all worthless 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless 🙂 I have also said I think the Kabbalah is just an idea and does not fit with the creation of the Marvel Universe hence the Rabbit Retcon. The whole Phoenix plot messed Marvel up in the same way JLA 1000000 messed up DC. Morrison has taken over from Byrne as Mr I create my own continuity, to hell if it fits.

You did used to say there was no connection to God. Even the thread title is evidence of your previous stance.

As for the rabbit retcon, we've been through this. A few isues prior it said the Big Bang was a manifestation of th ePhoenix. In the latest issue there was nothing that contradicted that.

There has been no retcon so far.

Even if there was White Crown Phoenix as it was could still be used in debates. No probs. Im just telling you that nowhere in that issue did they retcon Phoenix. What do you need a Phoenix shaped Big Bang? 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You did used to say there was no connection to God. Even the thread title is evidence of your previous stance.

As for the rabbit retcon, we've been through this. A few isues prior it said the Big Bang was a manifestation of th ePhoenix. In the latest issue there was nothing that contradicted that.

There has been no retcon so far.

Even if there was White Crown Phoenix as it was could still be used in debates. No probs. Im just telling you that nowhere in that issue did they retcon Phoenix. What do you need a Phoenix shaped Big Bang? 😕

Yes for it to be Phoenix they need a Phoenix shaped big bang - Reed didn't want to call it the Phoenix force if you read that issue showing Marvels feelings on the issue. The engines of creation - doesn't sound like the Phoenix force to me 🙂

And no Phoenix is not part of God, Morrison may have tried to do that but like John Byrne usually does he botched the job of producing the link.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I like this bit a lot the analysis of the essay on the board

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

And yet that doesnt apply because i merely give definitions for terms used in the comics which is completely fine.

The on panel feats speak for themselves. Phoenix is shown on panel to reside in the Crown, she is stated on panel to be the energies of creation that manifests as the Big Bang and the hosts of this power are presented as seraphim. Thats all on panel im certainly not pulling stuff out of my rear end by highlighting these events and claiming them to be evidence of a connection.

Theres a lot of stuff this essayist talked about that i didnt go into as its not directly related to the interpretation.

This doesnt apply to myself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet that doesnt apply because i merely give definitions for terms used in the comics which is completely fine.

The on panel feats speak for themselves. Phoenix is shown on panel to reside in the Crown, she is stated on panel to be the energies of creation that manifests as the Big Bang and the hosts of this power are presented as seraphim. Thats all on panel im certainly not pulling stuff out of my rear end by highlighting these events and claiming them to be evidence of a connection.

Theres a lot of stuff this essayist talked about that i didnt go into as its not directly related to the interpretation.

This doesnt apply to myself.

but she is not the energies of creation anymore (if she ever was) the Rabbit is 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yes for it to be Phoenix they need a Phoenix shaped big bang - Reed didn't want to call it the Phoenix force if you read that issue showing Marvels feelings on the issue. The engines of creation - doesn't sound like the Phoenix force to me 🙂

And no Phoenix is not part of God, Morrison may have tried to do that but like John Byrne usually does he botched the job of producing the link.

Shows nothing Whirly. It was called the Big Bang and the Big Bang was stated earlier to be Phoenix.

You dont have a strong case for a Phoenix retcon and i think you know that deep down.

A botch job doesnt mean no link Whirly. It just means no extrapolation, no going off on tangents when interpreting the comics. Things which are stated in the comic can be defined. Phoenix is Tiphereth and the heart and soul of creation and represents the Crown as actually stated on panel. That says it all. Phoenix is an aspect.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Shows nothing Whirly. It was called the Big Bang and the Big Bang was stated earlier to be Phoenix.

You dont have a strong case for a Phoenix retcon and i think you know that deep down.

A botch job doesnt mean no link Whirly. It just means no extrapolation, no going off on tangents when interpreting the comics. Things which are stated in the comic can be defined. Phoenix is Tiphereth and the heart and soul of creation and represents the Crown as actually stated on panel. That says it all. Phoenix is an aspect.

Not according to the recent run of the Fantastic Four - The force came from the Rabbit

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
but she is not the energies of creation anymore (if she ever was) the Rabbit is 🙂

No if you actually read the comic and please for the last time acknowledge my scans (which come after the ones youre caught up on) you'd see that the rabbits thoughts triggered the Big Bang. The power didnt derive from him. It caused it. Just like dropping a match on to a trail of fuel leading to a petrol station. Or more simply lighting a dynamite stick. Life was triggered by Eternitys questions. The power never came from him im afraid.

""In that silent pre creation hesitation. The Entity asked a question....And now that question has sparked the engines of creation""""

F4 #532.

The power never came from him or Eternity his question triggered the Big Bang.