Originally posted by kgkg
sorry for all the spam and shit that was not my intention.so where is the Force?
Bunny rules
Theres not gonna be another Phoenix story in 616 for a looong time that was the point behind Endsong. However the Force by all accounts is the Big Bang. Nothing in F4 532 said that wasnt the case. It just gave readers knowledge of why and when the Big Bang occurs. (i.e Eternitys questioning his own existence) What do expect a Phoenix shaped explosion? 😉
Other than that all your talk of a ReedForce and an all powerful bunny was incorrect because as stated it was all Eternity and they as extensions of Eternity (as was made very clear in the comic) triggered off the Big Bang in the same way Eternity did prior to their time travelling.
IMHO: whether or not Kabbalah or any mystical system has been intro'd into the Marvel universe; whether or not it's been interpreted correctly; whether or not one buys the philosophy -- for me, I best understand the Phoenix Force as a manifestation of the archetype which created -- and continues to create -- the Marvel universe (perhaps Eternity was the first conscious being to access this archetype). This archetype itself emanates out from the ascending hierarchy of archetypes, with its inevitable source in Final archetype: "God" as Highest Perceivable Other, the Creator With Form of the Omniverse, which in turn originates out of the Causal Void, the Godhead, the Ultimate Source and Mystery beyond any form or definition. This is not "The One Above All," as Marvel's we're-so-cool mystical wanna-bes have called it, but rather, it is as perhaps best described in the Chandogya Upanishad: "One without a second."
If Marvel has attempted to bring this level of being into its stories: from what I can tell, it has done a lousy job, likely because it had a truly amateur's understanding of the subject matter and was looking for special effects. Its attempt, IMO, has cheapened the Mystery it sought to exalt.
OR -- they have woven a narrative, driven by the Fallen One, and are proving themselves true masters of storytelling that we lesser mortals have shown ourselves unworthy to read because of our impatience.
I need pizza.
Originally posted by Mindship
IMHO: whether or not Kabbalah or any mystical system has been intro'd into the Marvel universe; whether or not it's been interpreted correctly; whether or not one buys the philosophy -- for me, I best understand the Phoenix Force as a manifestation of the archetype which created -- and continues to create -- the Marvel universe (perhaps Eternity was the first conscious being to access this archetype). This archetype itself emanates out from the ascending hierarchy of archetypes, with its inevitable source in Final archetype: "God" as Highest Perceivable Other, the Creator With Form of the Omniverse, which in turn originates out of the Causal Void, the Godhead, the Ultimate Source and Mystery beyond any form or definition. This is not "The One Above All," as Marvel's we're-so-cool mystical wanna-bes have called it, but rather, it is as perhaps best described in the Chandogya Upanishad: "One without a second."If Marvel has attempted to bring this level of being into its stories: from what I can tell, it has done a lousy job, likely because it had a truly amateur's understanding of the subject matter and was looking for special effects. Its attempt, IMO, has cheapened the Mystery it sought to exalt.
OR -- they have woven a narrative, driven by the Fallen One, and are proving themselves true masters of storytelling that we lesser mortals have shown ourselves unworthy to read because of our impatience.
I need pizza.
Prepare for a backlash from the HELPING HAND !!!!!!
Originally posted by kgkg
so where is the Force?
I define the source to be X,
since I cannot preceive of X, X must not exist.
Therefore the Force dowsn't exist.
Yeah real logical there. By that logic where is Galactus? And through an extension of him Silver Surfer, or any of the heralds, or any of the events they took part in?
Yeah, the problem is how you define the force. The power of creation without form, or in this case the form of the bunny. Later on called the phoenix force, and through an extention of a semblence of sentience take on a form of that sentience's own. But a force by any other name would have the same properties.
If I were to summon a water elemental in the form of a musk ox, and kill it, then I've killed water or the elemental that took the form of a musk ox?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres not gonna be another Phoenix story in 616 for a looong time that was the point behind Endsong. However the Force by all accounts is the Big Bang. Nothing in F4 532 said that wasnt the case. It just gave readers knowledge of why and when the Big Bang occurs. (i.e Eternitys questioning his own existence) What do expect a Phoenix shaped explosion? 😉Other than that all your talk of a ReedForce and an all powerful bunny was incorrect because as stated it was all Eternity and they as extensions of Eternity (as was made very clear in the comic) triggered off the Big Bang in the same way Eternity did prior to their time travelling.
Reed early said
Big Bang = PF
No reed Created the Big Bang = PF
didn't even say anything about the force , heck Reed was all suprised he didn't even mention PF did he?
again PF is the force that created the big Band
those guys created that Spark.
Therefore PF is nothing but the byproduct of Reed if you wanna look at it that way
Originally posted by kgkg
it says reed ....................... Created the Big Bang.Reed early said
Big Bang = PF
No reed Created the Big Bang = PF
didn't even say anything about the force , heck Reed was all suprised he didn't even mention PF did he?
again PF is the force that created the big Band
those guys created that Spark.
Therefore PF is nothing but the byproduct of Reed if you wanna look at it that way
Incorrect KG. As i have shown to posters before your post and as i will now show you:
As you can see from these scans from both F4 531 and 532 respectively,it does NOT say that Reed created the Big Bang. You misread or misinterpreted. Either way it states that Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were what triggered the Big Bang. Theres a difference between triggering something and creating it KG understand that.
If i light a stick of dynamite is the resultant explosion generated by my body? Does it derive from me directly or are my actions merely the catalyst?
Phoenix Force is the energies of creation it manifests as the Big Bang. This latest F4 story arc has revealed to us why and when Phoenix does that thats all.
As actually stated on panel their thoughts triggered it. They didnt create it. It didnt derive from them. Thats the difference. So no Phoenix is not a byproduct of Reed. You were incorrect. Reed and the Entity and Eternity are still very much byproducts of Phoenix the power of creation.
After the creation scene as they travel along the timestream in an attempt to understand life they finally discover the answer:
As we knew Eternitys the embodiment of all life in the universe. Everyone in 616 is an extension of Eternity as much a part of him as the stars. That is stated. Eternitys questions on his own existence were the trigger for the Big Bang. The manifestation of Phoenix. When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang instead. However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and that proved to be the catalyst.
Reeds interference resulted in him actually being responsible for the creation of the F4. He was the intelligence behind the cosmic rays.
Eternity triggered off the Big Bang with his pondering and all life in Marvel are extensions of Eternity.
Those things were the revelations of that story arc. Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang and nowhere did it say that Phoenix never created Eternity. As previous accounts all state those points are the case then a retcon hasnt taken place. We just know why and when the Big Bang occurs every creation cycle. 😉
Originally posted by Evil Genius
They explained it really well themselves, you don't get to the point enough, you just waffle.
Explain how their arguments and their evidence is right in the face of what mine shows.
Kg for example says that the comic says Reed created the Big Bang however his owns scans say otherwise as do mine. How is he right?
Kg believes Reed and the Entity did all the work unto themselves when in fact they did it as extensions of Eternity as actually stated in my scans.
Kg said there was a retcon but nothing in the story arc or his evidence says Phoenix isnt the Big Bang. So how is he right? Wheres the retcon?
🙄
Oh how I love discussing nonsense...
So, if Eternity is the "embodiment of life" in the universe (not quite sure how to interpret that), it would make sense (sorta) that he would be the "first conscious being" to access the creative force preceeding the universe. If the Phoenix Force -- what the Marvel denizens call the energy of the archetype responsible for creating the MU -- is the bullet, Eternity is the gun.
If I am grasping the Reed & Entity sequence correctly, at least as presented by GS, their presence is, as stated, the trigger.
Hmmm.
Whether my interpretation is correct or not, may I offer the following to ponder:
One of the dangers of "ascension through the higher levels of reality" is that one identifies so powerfully with the archetype that he (or she) sees himself as subsuming the archetype, rather than the other way around. In other words, the "cell" -- in waking up to the consciousness of the whole body -- regards itself as the whole body, rather than seeing itself as only part of the body, witnessing the body and its functions already in motion.
Where am I going with this dribble?
Reed and the Entity see themselves as the trigger, when in fact creation was already occurring and they are simply witness to it.
You see (just bear with me, I'll zip it soon), if the Mighty Marvel Mystics knew their subject matter (at least as well as I'm hoping I do), they'd know that Creation isn't a one-shot deal. It is always going on, instant to instant, evolution from matter to spirit, and also involution from spirit to matter. Reed and the Entity, as "cellular" consciousness, merely were witnesses to, or at best parts of, this eternal cycle.
I hope this made some sense. I doubt this level of depth was anything like what Marvel intended. As I've stated previously, their main purpose was to entertain, even if one-upmanship was a big part.
Still -- never forget -- all this may still be the action of the Fallen One, whose own awareness functions several steps ahead of our own.
bag
Originally posted by GalacticStormhe probably feels its all been said
Like i thought 🙄
Originally posted by Mindship
Oh how I love discussing nonsense...So, if Eternity is the "embodiment of life" in the universe (not quite sure how to interpret that), it would make sense (sorta) that he would be the "first conscious being" to access the creative force preceeding the universe. If the Phoenix Force -- what the Marvel denizens call the energy of the archetype responsible for creating the MU -- is the bullet, Eternity is the gun.
If I am grasping the Reed & Entity sequence correctly, at least as presented by GS, their presence is, as stated, the trigger.
Hmmm.
Whether my interpretation is correct or not, may I offer the following to ponder:
One of the dangers of "ascension through the higher levels of reality" is that one identifies so powerfully with the archetype that he (or she) sees himself as subsuming the archetype, rather than the other way around. In other words, the "cell" -- in waking up to the consciousness of the whole body -- regards itself as the whole body, rather than seeing itself as only part of the body, witnessing the body and its functions already in motion.
Where am I going with this dribble?
Reed and the Entity see themselves as the trigger, when in fact creation was already occurring and they are simply witness to it.
You see (just bear with me, I'll zip it soon), if the Mighty Marvel Mystics knew their subject matter (at least as well as I'm hoping I do), they'd know that Creation isn't a one-shot deal. It is always going on, instant to instant, evolution from matter to spirit, and also involution from spirit to matter. Reed and the Entity, as "cellular" consciousness, merely were witnesses to, or at best parts of, this eternal cycle.
I hope this made some sense. I doubt this level of depth was anything like what Marvel intended. As I've stated previously, their main purpose was to entertain, even if one-upmanship was a big part.
Still -- never forget -- all this may still be the action of the Fallen One, whose own awareness functions several steps ahead of our own.
bag
Interesting ideas mindship - good stuff 🙂
