Originally posted by Darth Somebody
The fight regarding Count Dooku is another ambigious one. No where in the script does it remotely imply Dooku faking. If you're going to base things on a script - one that wasn't used completely, I might add - then it is safe to conclude that Anakin simply bested Dooku through superior skill as well.
I agree. At some point, Dooku must have realized that Anakin was much better than he had been last time, and then fought all out. Also, being the Count of Sorenno, and thus politically adept, I cannot accept that he was not aware of Sidious' habit of acquiring new apprentices often.
It also says that Sidious simply cut the Jedi down, without usage of the Force to cloud their minds. So, we can also conclude Sidious bested them through superior skill.It says that Mace was slammed against the wall by Sidious - who used the Force. I don't recall this happening. Perhaps a deleted scene?
It also says that Mace was killed under the sheer power of Sidious's lightning - instead of your theory of a Force push.
Since this is part of the EU forum: you may recall from the Jedi Knight games that force lightning pushes things. Like people. Really far when its powerful.
I also don't recall Mace being pushed into any walls, but I don't doubt Sidious' ability to do so.
I don't remember where I heard it, but someone once told me that the first jedi Sidious killed in that scene was trying to sense his intentions, and was not focused enough in the moment. The second just was a terrible warrior, and the third (again drawing on EU sources) always supported Palpatine and was probably in a state of shock and disbelief.
It also says that Sidious blasts Yoda fair and sqaure, without any indication of Yoda faking. According to the script, Yoda took a severe hit due to his own inability to defend himself.
This part has always baffled me. Yoda has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he is capable of handling lightning. Maybe he too was trying too hard to sense Sidious' intentions, and was caught by surprise. It seems unlikely he would make such a mistake, but its the best I can come up with. The raising of the hands seems like a pretty strong visual cue.
Palpatine seeking refuge in the Chancellor's podium is correct. But refuge simply means a shelter from danger. I'm not disputing the fact that Yoda was highly dangerous. In fact, this only furthers my argument. Not only would he be safer from Yoda, but the odds would be tipped into his advantage. An intelligent move.
That seems about right.
It also says that Yoda was about to kill Palpatine:YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.
The sentence above that states that: It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
So. If Yoda was about to land a killing blow on Sidious, why did he flee to another pod? This did not happen in the movie - nor does it make any sense - along with a majority of the script.
It appears to me that the moment where Yoda was going to kill Sidious was on the Chancellor's podium, after a saber lock. Sidious managed to flee up into the pods. Yoda jumped from the podium to a pod lower than the one Sidious was on, intending to make his way up. Which he did, eventually.
It also says that Sidious' blast throws Yoda against the Chancellor's podium - which it did not. And it also states that when Yoda fell, Sidious took a pod to then search for him - to continue the fight.
Remember after the force feedback blast when Yoda flew through the air and hit a surface, then slid down its side, attempting to cling to it by his fingernails. That was the podium.
Going by THAT script, the one YOU brought up, Yoda is also a coward because he fled when Sidious was still looking. The script also gives no indication of Clones being brought in, so that excuse is void.
Yoda fled because he no longer had the means to kill Sidious, which was his only goal in being there. Without his lightsaber, and the self-imposed limitations of never using the force for attack, there were no offensive options. Ironically, this point also makes your argument correct, even though your details are...vague. Sidious did in fact defeat Yoda once Yoda could no longer kill Sidious.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
gee, the winner is probably the one who became complete and unquestioned ruler of the galaxy, just a thought
Well, no Yoda fanboy or Sidious hater would dispute the fact that Sidious didn't win. He did win. Yoda himself said he failed. So there's no real need to discuss this, but people do anyways.
Precisely, Jedi Musicians. But then you have a select group of people who shall remain anonymous - who like to pretend that Yoda won the fight and that he owned Sidious. Nai brought up the intended script for Revenge of the Sith. Yet, the vast majority of that fight scene was not used for the actual movie itself - so I am inclined to agree with what happened in the movie itself.
Point being: Nai is wrong. The scripted fight scene is NOT consistant with the movie.
Yoda didn't win. He couldn't have won. He left, Nai, because he could NOT kill Sidious when he lost his saber.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
... And Sidious fanboys argue semantics and emphasis all sorts of vague points to undermine Sidious' weakness in saber combat.
And Dooku fanboys argue that their cult leader - Dooku himself - could own Sidious in any category he very well pleased, but ironically can't excuse why Dooku feared Sidious or why he never tried to takeover - because AFTERALL, the Dooku Fanboys stress the point that Dooku could do ANYTHING Sidious could. 😄
And please don't refer to me as a "fanboy". A "fanboy" is Sorgo or our departed Emperor Revan, who cannot consign any of their great idols to defeat. If you will gaze around the forums, you will ironically see that I admit and can tell people when Sidious is beaten - whether it is just barely or if he is flat-out "owned".
Try not to call me a fanboy, Janus. It simply won't work.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
But he could!No seriously, I'm no Dooku fanboy. Be nice or I'll insult you again.
See, with me, that works both ways. In order for me to be nice, one has to return the favor.
I didn't NAME you or declare you a Dooku fanboy. I simply made a point that you cannot give a legitimate explanation as to why Dooku feared Sidious - which you have admitted that he did. So, it would appear to me that Dooku - being a shrewed and intelligent man in his own right - had a REASON to fear Sidious.
Ever think of it like that?
Or, you could say Dooku was manipulated. But then again, you'd have to tread lightly there. By saying that, you'd be prooving that Sidious is quite capable of manipulating just about anyone, including strong willed men like Count Dooku. Which thusly means that Sidious might be GOOD at something. And we know that the thought of Sidious being good at anything is highly frowned upon.
Keep the tradition.
The thing that makes you come off as a fanboy is your insistance to argue semantics in the Mace versus Sidious fight, saying that duelling ability and fighting ability are two different things and Mace isn't the superior duellist because he kicked Sidious' saber out of his hands... It's really silly. People who argue semantics can't admit defeat, and that is fanboyism.
Or, you might try to take on the view of Nai Fohl - who so endlessly preached that Sidious caught the Jedi Masters by complete surprise and that how he only defeated them through a combination of surprise and how he used the Force to cloud the minds of the three.
And I believe Faunus and myself calmly, rationally, and completely managed to obliterate all possibilities of that. Sorgo himself agrees. They simply were outmatched.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
The thing that makes you come off as a fanboy is your insistance to argue semantics in the Mace versus Sidious fight, saying that duelling ability and fighting ability are two different things and Mace isn't the superior duellist because he kicked Sidious' saber out of his hands... It's really silly. People who argue semantics can't admit defeat, and that is fanboyism.
Aaah. The Mace vs Sidious debate.
Well then, if that is the case, perhaps I ought to word it a tad differently. Mace Windu has displayed NOTHING that would make him superior with a lightsaber - in sheer skill with a blade. We've seen that he's superior at dealing out lethal kicks. But what does that make him? Better with a blade? Hardly, Janus.
So by your definition of dueling - then Mace is superior. But in sheer blade-to-blade skill - something that we've only seen Count Dooku use - he may very well be "inferior" to Sidious.
Oh, and by your definition of dueling - Vader could hypothetically best Count Dooku as a duelist.
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Count Dooku swung his red blade down in an arc. Vader slammed his own crimson saber into Dooku's, managing to block the arc. Vader and Dooku closed in on one another - locked in a contest of sheer strength. Vader released a hand from the hilt, his mechanical arm still powerful enough to hold off Dooku's two hands. Then, Vader swung hard, and backhanded Dooku as hard as he could muster.
A wet snap emerged from Dooku's neck as his head twisted around. The red saber de-activated, and fled into the curved silver hilt. Dooku fell to his knees, his mouth slack - and then fell forward to the cold metal floor, his saber skittering across the cold tiles.
----
The End.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Aaah. The Mace vs Sidious debate.Well then, if that is the case, perhaps I ought to word it a tad differently. Mace Windu has displayed NOTHING that would make him superior with a lightsaber - in sheer skill with a blade. We've seen that he's superior at dealing out lethal kicks. But what does that make him? Better with a blade? Hardly, Janus.
So by your definition of dueling - then Mace is superior. But in sheer blade-to-blade skill - something that we've only seen Count Dooku use - he may very well be "inferior" to Sidious.
You seriously are a terrible debater. Arguing semantics is pointless because you can just change the wording a bit or change this or that and the argument starts anew.
First off, assuming that people fight purely with blades is unrealistic. This is not a fencing match; this is a battle to the death. Sidious obviously coudln't dictate the rules of engagement with his saber, and was disarmed as a result. Whether this was a kick (Which is a hell of a lot easier to see coming than a swift manuever with a sword disarming someone) or a punch or whatever, Sidious was defeated. Instead of trying to make it out like Mace never overcame Sidious in saber combat thus he can't ever possibly do so and must therefore not be superior in skill, you should look at it realistically.
- Mace put Sidious entirely on the defensive.
- Mace put Sidious into a situation where he had to use inhuman acrobatics to avoid strikes.
- Mace disarmed Sidious rather easily.
- Sidious was on his back. His lightning was ineffective at killing or stunning Mace, and his salvation was Anakin Skywalker.
Using these points, we can then apply the Razor. Specifically, what that means is we use the simplest possible solution as the most accurate one, removing any unknowns. Since you're arguing that Mace could be equal to or less superior than Sidious in lightsaber combat, and I'm arguing that he was obviously more skilled, let's apply the Razor to find a happy medium.
Premise #1: Mace Windu put Sidious on the defensive.
Premise #2: Mace Windu found an opportunity to disarm Sidious and took it.
Premise #3: Sidious was on his back, unable to push back the jedi master or slay him either at this point or beforehand.
Simplest and most straightforward conclusion, relying NOT on unknowns: Mace Windu soundly defeated Sidious.
There. Your move.
So by your definition of "blade on blade" combat, you can't use your feet, because they have contact with the ground: it's not a match of who's more nimble, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your arms: it's not a match of who's more dexterous or who's stronger, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use the force: it's not a match of who's more sensitive, or who's more powerful, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your head: it's not a match of who's smarter, or who's tactically superior, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your eyes: it's not a match of who can see the blade better, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your reflexes: it's not a match of how fast you can react, it's not a match of how quickly you respond and adjust, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
If a kick doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Your argument that Sidious may not be the inferior "duelist" is a petty and illogical one, I suggest you stop.
I'm a terrible debater? Lol. Alright. Damn. You sure haven't made any attempt to argue anything else but the Mace vs Sidious issue, which is where I'm "arguing sematics". So, please shed some light on the following.
1. Why Dooku feared Sidious if he was superior.
2. Why Dooku's death was all arranged by Sidious if he were smarter.
3. Why - by your definition of dueling - Dooku can beat Vader (because let's face it, two punches at maximum, and Dooku's dead).
If not, then shut the hell up and admit it that Dooku had a REASON to fear Sidious. That it in itself speaks for something. If you CAN argue it, then do it.
Until that moment - either you soundly BEAT me in this debate - or until you admit you're WRONG - we'll be arguing with one another for a long time.
Originally posted by Illustrious
So by your definition of "blade on blade" combat, you can't use your feet, because they have contact with the ground: it's not a match of who's more nimble, it's a match of who's better with a blade.You can't use your arms: it's not a match of who's more dexterous or who's stronger, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use the force: it's not a match of who's more sensitive, or who's more powerful, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your head: it's not a match of who's smarter, or who's tactically superior, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your eyes: it's not a match of who can see the blade better, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
You can't use your reflexes: it's not a match of how fast you can react, it's not a match of how quickly you respond and adjust, it's a match of who's better with a blade.
If a kick doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Your argument that Sidious may not be the inferior "duelist" is a petty and illogical one, I suggest you stop.
Illustrious.
So you're telling me that you have to kick or punch to utilize all of the above? You're telling me that if I wanted a duel where it is strictly blade to blade - and no punching or kicking - that means I'm saying we can't use our feet or arms at all?
No. The ability to punch someone doesn't make them stronger or a better bladesman. Don't try to pretend like it is. So I suggest YOU stop taking my statements out of context.
Using our feet in basketball or football doesn't mean we have to drop kick the nearest opponent. Damn...