Who really won the one on one in Ep. 3 Yoda or Sidious

So please don't act like I'm saying blade-to-blade combat is where we warrant off the usage of eyes, intellect, feet, and arms. It's rather sad of you to state that I am implying it. You needn't use your arms or your legs in anything to just punch and kick people. And that is precisely what I am saying.

Consider Dooku, who can disarm by efficiently manuevering his wrist against an opponent, and rip that person's blade out of his or her hands, without the need to punch or kick anyone. That is what I am saying.

Dooku's way of combat. Blade-to-blade. That is what I am saying. There is nothing to indicate that in sheer blade-to-blade capacity that Mace is superior. Is he? It's possible.

But that's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I'm a terrible debater? Lol. Alright. Damn. You sure haven't made any attempt to argue anything else but the Mace vs Sidious issue, which is where I'm "arguing sematics". So, please shed some light on the following.

1. Why Dooku feared Sidious if he was superior.
2. Why Dooku's death was all arranged by Sidious if he were smarter.
3. Why - by your definition of dueling - Dooku can beat Vader (because let's face it, two punches at maximum, and Dooku's dead).

If not, then shut the hell up and admit it that Dooku had a REASON to fear Sidious. That it in itself speaks for something. If you CAN argue it, then do it.

Until that moment - either you soundly BEAT me in this debate - or until you admit you're WRONG - we'll be arguing with one another for a long time.

It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

I've never argued Dooku was smarter. Don't confuse me with somebody else.

If Vader's physical strength was the sole factor in this battle, and Dooku was so weak he couldn't possibly stand up to him (Despite having visibly more powerful Force powers, a better lightsaber style, and being able to withstand the flurries of both Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease... oh, and Luke Skywalker, who batted him down like a ***** in ROTJ.) then I might admit the possibility for loss. But the odds are -horribly- against Vader. He's slower, he's less powerful with the Force (Having lost much of his Force potential and power at Mustafar, and being a relative lightweight in Force powers overall) he's never showed ability to use or deflect Sith lightning outside of his lightsaber (assuming he can do that, I believe he can) and hoenstly Vader in the OT hasn't showed the ability to simply cut down hi opponents like Dooku does.

What argument do you have that isn't full of semantics and BS to support Vader over Dooku?

Oh, and thanks for silently admitting to being wrong about Mace and Sidious. It's about time.

No, but being able to tackle makes you a better football player, for example.

There's simply no way of determining who's the better "duelist" by your definition of the word. Mace is superior to Sidious because he put him on his ass, it's that simple. I can twist semantics around by saying Sidious isn't as "strong" as Windu, or he isn't as "fast" as Windu.

There's no limitation stating he has to slash him with his saber, or that he can't use force powers, etc. Your example with basketball is flawed, because drop kicking would go against the rules and limitations of the game, you'd be called a foul, plus it isn't necessarily more effective. In this situation, kicking away Sidious' saber is both effective and completely within the rules and norm. There should be NO reason for you to even be arguing this at all... it's a pointless debate of semantics.

And since you don't seem to realize what semantics are:

[code]se·man·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-mntk) also se·man·ti·cal (-t-kl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to meaning, especially meaning in language.
2. Of, relating to, or according to the science of semantics. [/code]

Originally posted by Deus Ex
It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

I've never argued Dooku was smarter. Don't confuse me with somebody else.

If Vader's physical strength was the sole factor in this battle, and Dooku was so weak he couldn't possibly stand up to him (Despite having visibly more powerful Force powers, a better lightsaber style, and being able to withstand the flurries of both Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease... oh, and Luke Skywalker, who batted him down like a ***** in ROTJ.) then I might admit the possibility for loss. But the odds are -horribly- against Vader. He's slower, he's less powerful with the Force (Having lost much of his Force potential and power at Mustafar, and being a relative lightweight in Force powers overall) he's never showed ability to use or deflect Sith lightning outside of his lightsaber (assuming he can do that, I believe he can) and hoenstly Vader in the OT hasn't showed the ability to simply cut down hi opponents like Dooku does.

What argument do you have that isn't full of semantics and BS to support Vader over Dooku?

Oh, and thanks for silently admitting to being wrong about Mace and Sidious. It's about time.

Lol. You just showed how biased you are. This quote especially.

"How he handled the flurries of Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease..."

You're right. Dooku's stronger than Obi-Wan, Anakin, or even a mechanical Darth Vader, who is capable of picking up full grown men with a single hand and breaking their necks. You're right! You beat me! He is stronger than Vader. Faster, smarter, more agile...

Hell! He's just better.

So, congratulations Janus! You managed to act the part of the fool on that one. Oh, don't forget that Dooku is stronger than General Grievous - we can't leave that tin-can out of it either.

Dooku could take on anyone. So yes. I agree with you.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, but being able to tackle makes you a better football player, for example.

There's simply no way of determining who's the better "duelist" by your definition of the word. Mace is superior to Sidious because he put him on his ass, it's that simple. I can twist semantics around by saying Sidious isn't as "strong" as Windu, or he isn't as "fast" as Windu.

There's no limitation stating he has to slash him with his saber, or that he can't use force powers, etc. Your example with basketball is flawed, because drop kicking would go against the rules and limitations of the game, you'd be called a foul, plus it isn't necessarily more effective. In this situation, kicking away Sidious' saber is both effective and completely within the rules and norm. There should be NO reason for you to even be arguing this at all... it's a pointless debate of semantics.

And since you don't seem to realize what semantics are:

[code]se·man·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-mntk) also se·man·ti·cal (-t-kl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to meaning, especially meaning in language.
2. Of, relating to, or according to the science of semantics. [/code]

Thanks Illustrious. You're right too. Mace and Dooku pwn all. I agree with you.

Please dont tell me you guys are gonna argue this again...

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So please don't act like I'm saying blade-to-blade combat is where we warrant off the usage of eyes, intellect, feet, and arms. It's rather sad of you to state that I am implying it. You needn't use your arms or your legs in anything to just punch and kick people. And that is precisely what I am saying.

Consider Dooku, who can disarm by efficiently manuevering his wrist against an opponent, and rip that person's blade out of his or her hands, without the need to punch or kick anyone. That is what I am saying.

Dooku's way of combat. Blade-to-blade. That is what I am saying. There is nothing to indicate that in sheer blade-to-blade capacity that Mace is superior. Is he? It's possible.

But that's all I'm saying.

I'm saying what does it matter?

Would the fact that Sidious can make the loudest fart in the SWU make you feel better as a human being?

Seriously, Dooku uses Form 2, he's made for lightsaber on lightsaber battle, Mace uses Form 7, he's made for the unpredictable, such as kicking the lightsaber out of their hand. It's not like one is necessarily inferior to the other. You're debating something that's completely IRRELEVANT. It doesn't matter a damn either way if one's a better "duelist" (again, your definition) than the other.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

But he did fear him. Did Sidious fear Dooku? No...

Count Dooku, a political idealist and highly intelligent man, feared - by your words - his inferior. Repeat that to yourself. Count Dooku feared someone who was inferior to him. Doesn't that...I dunno...NOT make sense? But whatever. Dooku pwns all. We'll just neglect the tidbit of information that Dooku feared Sidious.

He's a man who isn't afraid to take on Yoda himself...but he fears this hooded -WEAK- man posturing as the Dark Lord of the Sith. But that's okay. Think what you will. We all have rights to our opinions. Thanks for letting me keep mine.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Please dont tell me you guys are gonna argue this again...

We won't. I'm frankly tired of how ridiculous they get when I defend Sidious and bring up the point that Dooku feared him. So, by Janus's arguments, Dooku feared his own inferior. Kind of funny when you think about it. But to them, I'm a nobody who can't make an argument.

But considering how neither of them can explain that Dooku - who is not afraid to tackle Yoda himself - fears Sidious. And remember! Sidious is Dooku's "inferior".

But that's okay. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't make sense what they say, to me, but oh well. I can live with it. 🙂

It is possible that Dooku feared Sidious not helping him remove the corruption in the Senate more than he feared Sidious himself? I think Dooku knew he wouldn't be able to reform the Republic in a less corrupt way without Sidious.

I'm not saying that Sidious is Dooku's "inferior." But you acting like he can not be a better duelist is a lie. Like Janus saying, simply his fear of him is no guage of his abilities.

We won't. I'm frankly tired of how ridiculous they get when I defend Sidious and bring up the point that Dooku feared him. So, by Janus's arguments, Dooku feared his own inferior. Kind of funny when you think about it. But to them, I'm a nobody who can't make an argument.

This can go both ways.

"We won't. I'm frankly tired about how ridiculous you get when I explain Mace defeated Sidious. You simply argue semantics to a point that has no relevance."

If saying Mace isn't a better "duelist" than Sidious makes you feel better, go ahead and feel better -- doesn't make it true.

Nice play of words, DS, but you are still as full of shit as you were beforehand. Your sole chance in this debate lies in you twisting and abusing words.

Where's your argument for Vader? Elaborated, in bullet point format?

Or can you manage that? DS, you are all about sarcasm and wordplay, but you provide no substance. None.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is possible that Dooku feared Sidious not helping him remove the corruption in the Senate more than he feared Sidious himself? I think Dooku knew he wouldn't be able to reform the Republic in a less corrupt way without Sidious.

Well, to be frankly honest - I would imagine Dooku no longer operated under the facade of nobility. He also knew Sidious wasn't going to stop mid-step in his plans, considering he had planned on executing them for decades. We know - as Dark Rendezvous has shown - and from his attitude in Attack of The Clones - that Dooku did indeed fear Sidious. We do not know why, but Illustrious and Sorgo and Janus made a big deal of how rational and intelligent Dooku is. Now that goes without saying.

Dooku was a cunning and intelligent man. He was not afraid to tackle Yoda himself when it came down to it. But for some reason, he feared Sidious - who by Janus and Illustrious's arguments - would lose against his apprentice in a duel. Some have went out of their way to establish Sidious as inferior to Dooku.

Yet, Dooku, being cunning and intelligent, as previously mentioned - feared Sidious. And thusly had a REASON to fear Sidious, even though we do not know what it was. It is a likely indication that Sidious had something over Dooku. Perhaps it was greater power. Or perhaps it was Sidious playing on Dooku to make him fear him.

We do not know. So, I would really consider hard before saying Dooku is superior to Sidious.

- And Janus. I need you not to declare what chances I have in this debate. You haven't done anything to change my opinion - nor have you established Mace as superior when it comes down to swordsmanship than Sidious. You have offered "nothing", whereas I simply gave proof that Mace didn't outmaneuver Sidious. And my point therein is that while Mace is the superior fighter and warrior, he indicates nothing that he could've beaten Sidious without resorting to his kick. Basically, he could not disarm Sidious the way Dooku did to Obi-Wan or Anakin in Attack of the Clones. He could not - and did not - express any superior abilities with a blade. You - nor Illustrious - have offered any proof that he is. So my theory remains quite possible and quite beyond your ability to prove otherwise.

- Also, you seem rather unwilling to accept the possibility that there was a reason Dooku feared Sidious - and that the reason may be that Dooku simply feared Sidious's attunement to the Dark Side. I doubt Dooku is connected to the Force - let alone the Dark Side of it - as Sidious is. But of course, you've done daring things before. Prove me wrong there.

Until then, we can agree to disagree. Because like I said. You and Illustrious have gained no ground, nor have you proved me wrong in any of the major points. You simply relied on "sarcasm" - and in Illustrious's case: "twisting of words".

So. Until you offer me proof that Mace could own Sidious with just blade to blade skill - or why Dooku feared his master like he did - simply back down and agree to disagree. 🙂

Semantics, DS. You just argued in a circle. Both Illustrious and myself have pointed out the error of your reasoning and why you're chasing after stars in the case of Mace and Sidious. As for Dooku and Vader, you have more or less refused to make an argument, which is the entire point of this thread.

So really, your points on Mace is contradictory to the essence of fighting to the death (as opposed to arranged rules-bound duelling or to say, fencing) , period. In particular, instead of conceding that Sidious was beaten, you are arguing that Mace won differently and that he couldn't have won without the kick. This is ridiculous, and is fueled by your pro-Sidious stance, which saturates every post you make on this board, even when you're "humbly" saying Sidious can be beaten.

Also, in regards to Dooku and Sidious (Who oddly enough always make their way into any thread with you posting in it) nothing is conclusive and you're trying to twist it so that Sidious looks clearly better than Dooku and thus needs a backrub and handjob from everyone on the board without actually proving anything regarding skill.

This thread is about Vader and Dooku. Maybe you should try and argue that point or shut the hell up, as you so eloquently put it.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Semantics, DS. You just argued in a circle. Both Illustrious and myself have pointed out the error of your reasoning and why you're chasing after stars in the case of Mace and Sidious. As for Dooku and Vader, you have more or less refused to make an argument, which is the entire point of this thread.

So really, your points on Mace is contradictory to the essence of fighting to the death (as opposed to arranged rules-bound duelling or to say, fencing) , period. In particular, instead of conceding that Sidious was beaten, you are arguing that Mace won differently and that he couldn't have won without the kick. This is ridiculous, and is fueled by your pro-Sidious stance, which saturates every post you make on this board, even when you're "humbly" saying Sidious can be beaten.

Also, in regards to Dooku and Sidious (Who oddly enough always make their way into any thread with you posting in it) nothing is conclusive and you're trying to twist it so that Sidious looks clearly better than Dooku and thus needs a backrub and handjob from everyone on the board without actually proving anything regarding skill.

This thread is about Vader and Dooku. Maybe you should try and argue that point or shut the hell up, as you so eloquently put it.

Kk. Dooku and Vader saber lock - Vader backhands Dooku and stuns him. Vader then punches him and breaks his neck. But Dooku might use his godly strength and endurance that he has acquired in his old age and rip the half-machine man apart.

And please, Janus. You have a bias as well. Dooku stance. It's written all over you. And lol, "humbly"? I tell people when Sidious is owned. I also say when he owns others. Now, you, on the otherhand liked to have argued Yoda couldn't have beaten Dooku and that Dooku wasn't tiring where as Yoda was...which is more pathetic than the Sidious and Dooku debate.

So. By your own insinuations that Dooku is flat-out better than Vader, Sidious, and even Yoda - I will let this argument go, consent defeat, and happily award you a victory. No sarcasm, I'm simply tired of arguing with you.

Porqué puede usted poblar para no conseguir adelante.

- And Janus. I need you not to declare what chances I have in this debate. You haven't done anything to change my opinion - nor have you established Mace as superior when it comes down to swordsmanship than Sidious. You have offered "nothing", whereas I simply gave proof that Mace didn't outmaneuver Sidious. And my point therein is that while Mace is the superior fighter and warrior, he indicates nothing that he could've beaten Sidious without resorting to his kick. Basically, he could not disarm Sidious the way Dooku did to Obi-Wan or Anakin in Attack of the Clones. He could not - and did not - express any superior abilities with a blade. You - nor Illustrious - have offered any proof that he is. So my theory remains quite possible and quite beyond your ability to prove otherwise.

No, we have offered no proof for your narrow, conceited, and thoroughly illogical view of "dueling" juxtaposed to "fighting." I can make a topic impossibly small and say that you have offered no proof either. I can say that Dooku "fearing" Sidious has no implication on Sidious' outright abilities, as it was never demonstrated (oh wow, sound familiar?).

Mace plain old beat Sidious -- he put the Chancellor on his ass and would have killed him. Regardless of how he did it, it doesn't matter. The process of him kicking him to disarm him no longer has any implication. The bottum line is still that Mace won that fight the way he did... period. There is no evidence to the contrary that Sidious was the superior "duelist" even as you say. It's an irrelevant point based on semantics because you can't accept the facts.

They were fighting, they weren't "fencing." You could just as easily assert that Mace isn't better then Sidious at playing checkers, or Sidious was superior to Mace in basketweaving, it's that irrelevant.

Hm. I was a bit late in realizing that this was supposed to be in the Vader versus Dooku thread, but since DS spews the same crap in all threads, it was a slight mistake on my part.

DS, I'm not bias for Dooku. Get that through your head. And you can't refute anything to save your soul, so you just use some witty sarcasm and rip on me and than overexaggerate anything I say or flat out twist it. So please, take your own advice and either learn to debate or back down and agree to disagree... or shut the hell up. Choice is yours, really. You came around spewing off nonsense and semantics, because you don't have an ice cube's chance in hell of proving that Sidious can beat Dooku soundly, Yoda soundly, or even Vader can defeat Dooku. You're all sarcasm and semantics and bias, and then you accuse others of your faults. In short, you're a coward without a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, we have offered no proof for your narrow, conceited, and thoroughly illogical view of "dueling" juxtaposed to "fighting." I can make a topic impossibly small and say that you have offered no proof either. I can say that Dooku "fearing" Sidious has no implication on Sidious' outright abilities, as it was never demonstrated (oh wow, sound familiar?).

Mace plain old beat Sidious -- he put the Chancellor on his ass and would have killed him. Regardless of how he did it, it doesn't matter. The process of him kicking him to disarm him no longer has any implication. The bottum line is still that Mace won that fight the way he did... period. There is no evidence to the contrary that Sidious was the superior "duelist" even as you say. It's an irrelevant point based on semantics because you can't accept the facts.

They were fighting, they weren't "fencing." You could just as easily assert that Mace isn't better then Sidious at playing checkers, or Sidious was superior to Mace in basketweaving, it's that irrelevant.

1. Conceited? YOU of all people accuse ME of being conceited? You're the very epitome of the word, Illustrious. As well as HIPOCRISY. You might ought to consult Webster on both. 🙂

2. Mace did beat Sidious. Please show me where I said otherwise. 🙂

3. No. Actually, Sidious's abilities at checkers and basketweaving are one hundred percent irrelevant whereas I was simply offering that Mace did nothing to show he was superior in blade-to-blade skill. That is speculation. Speculation is nothing you - who reside in a Versus forum - need to dismiss. It's the very foundation of these forums. 🙂

4. Like I said. You're right. You can boast, brag, insult, and do whatever you like. I'm simply tired of arguing with you and Janus. So, please, have at it and continue the argument. 🙂