Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Maul vs. Sidious

Yeah, but Two of the Councilors Sidious beat were lame as hell. And I guess by your logic Saesee Tiin (ROTS) could beat Yoda (TPM), right?

How the hell did you come to that conclusion?

And the councillors were lame? what kind of reasoning is that, they were weak. QGJ was compared to them, and that was by somebody who probably overestimated him.

i think it would be a lot closer than some people think and can go either way. darth maul is underestimated and what some people dont understand is that a sith apprentice is a sith lord which is as strong as a jedi master. Sith apprentices are different to jedi apprentices. Count dooku was a sith apprentice as was vader and as was sidious when pleigous was dark lord. Qui gon jinn is also underestimated and was not only trained by dooku but also stronger in the force than him ( he was able to discover the secret of becoming one with the force without any guidance ). So those two and obi won would probably give sidious a run for his money but it could go either way

QGJ was not stronger in the force then Dooku was. If he would have been he would have destroyed Maul using the force alone.

Yes, Qui-Gon might have been wiser to find out the way to immortality but Dooku was superior in force powers. Qui-Gon couldent lift Maul and toss him across the room.

You think that Qui Gon who died relatively young was wiser than his old master, who would have easily been the second in command in the Order had he not left?

What folly!

I don't know if Dooku would have been second in the Order. Makashi has two weaknesses; weakness in stopping blaster bolts and stop powerful strikes. Mace's Vapaad has these heavy strikes. By ROTS, I would say Mace could take Dooku(I might change my mind soon, as you know, I do that a lot.).

Power alone does not put you in a high possition it just matters. If Dooku would have stayed in the Jedi Order he could very well have been the second in command, he is powerful and wise. Possibly more so then Mace. Either way if he would have stayed with the Jedi he would have been one of the 3 most important councillors.

Uh, you're missing the point here. Second in the Order. His Force mastery is able to compete with Yoda, and can obviously dominate Anakin and Obi-Wan. Mace Windu, while having a nifty fighting style, isn't on par with Dooku in sheer knowledge of the Force and experience, and this is what gets you on the council. Although Chris Lee does lose points for not having Windu's rhythm.

Or have as pimp a lightsaber.

Mace has the advantage in sheer lightsaber combat though, not because of the mastery of a particular form, but because, like said before, Makashi is weak against forms that use a lot of sheer strength. I also feel that Mace could defend effectivly against Dooku's force skill. He blocked Sidious' full force lightning, he could block anything DOoku tossed his direction. If he was disarmed though, Dooku would be able to perhaps force him to retreat.

You really are off on your points today, Glentract.

If Dooku's Makashi was weak against raw power, then Anakin would bat him down in either movie and kill him like Luke whupped Vader in ROTJ. And please watch Mace Windu fight again... he doesn't use overwhelming strength in his style at all. If anything, it's slow and methodical and when he gets into a saberlock with Sidious he can't push the old man back immediately, so how the hell do you think he could batter down Dooku?

I meant wiser in the ways of the force, I think he could understand it better, like when he knew Anakin was the chosen one and became a force ghost. And what has dying young to do with wisdom? Do you mean he never got as much experience as his master, well if that's what you mean I agree. I just meant I think he understands the will of the force better.

He probably does understand the will of the Force better, but that does not automatically grant him über powers that could defeat his old master. Especially since he came to find this knowledge (Somehow... what a bunch of bullshit, really) after he was already pwned in combat by someone lower than Dooku's boots in a bog.

Perhaps its just something you know when you die. Yoda said Obi Wan must learn this, I wonder how can you learn to die in the right way? Its probably just something you have to look at. Something QGJ was looking at.

I think it was that Qui gon was an individualist, and resisted becoming one with the Force to a degree that he kept some of his identity.

or he got uber lucky like anikan 😛

qui gon was a lot younger than dooku and by dooku's age would have been stronger in the force. He would have probably turned to the darkside too.

And you base that on what?

qui gon was able to learn the ability of becoming one with the force without guidance (something he had to teach yoda), he was young and full of potential, dooku trained him and it is likely he would have become greater than his master, he would have probably gone to the darkside eventually which would have enhanced his abilities. Don't get me wrong i don't think he would have ever got as good a duelist as dooku but he would have become stronger in the force.

Again you base that on what? There is nothing to even suggest something like that, except for him being able to become a force ghost and that wasn't done by people obviously more powerful then him. Yoda was far more powerful then QGJ yet still QGJ found it and Yoda wouldn't have had on his own.

It makes him understand something in a way that nobody else did at that time, it hardly makes him powerful.

i wasn;t talking about power i was talking about wisdom and force strength