www.pcgamesmods.com I think or something thereabouts. It's for the PC version.
And Fishy, refresh my memory on all the specifics that point to Revan being -clearly- superior to Kreia? Not being sarcastic... just... I want to see where you're coming from.
Originally posted by Lord Janus
www.pcgamesmods.com I think or something thereabouts. It's for the PC version.And Fishy, refresh my memory on all the specifics that point to Revan being -clearly- superior to Kreia? Not being sarcastic... just... I want to see where you're coming from.
Clearly? Well nothing really.
Lightsaber wise, well I won't have to point those out... You know them
Force wise, I don't think the difference is that great. I mean we know what Kreia her greatest attack was and I doubt she did that on her own. Even if she did we have know way of knowing if it can be blocked or not, and we do know that Revan would see an attack like that coming. A lightsaber will probably block the attack.
We also know that Revan learned incredibly fast and was great with the force so even if he was weaker with the force the difference would not be that great. And we also know that a minor difference in the force won't make somebody defeat the other when lightsabers are still around.
Kreia simply can not defeat somebody with the force when that somebody comes close to her in force powers. Nobody can.
Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
I must agree with Fishy. I just cant see Kreia waving her hand and making Revan dropping over dead like that. True she may have dominated Sion easily enough...but Revan is far more powerful, manipultive and cunning than Sion.
Perhaps so. But we know little of Revan as it is - only from in-game battles and events, which are ridiculous as it is. Why, you may ask. Well, for example. In game battles - a swipe from an opponent's lightsaber will only cause minimal damage - as well as the fact that somehow, the powerful laser capable of melting steel can't sever FLESH.
In game battles can't and should never be counted.
But yes, I DOUBT Revan will be done away with so easily. However, Revan's manipulation is pathetic when you compare his skills to the likes of Kreia, Sidious, and Ragnos. All three are far above him in manipulative skill. And cunning? Well, Kreia's at least his equal.
Revan will just have to be flat out stronger than Kreia to beat her. She's possibly of greater intellect than he.
I don't know about all that. And Fishy, you didn't give me one specific solid thing to go on. The point is, we have nothing solid to go on with Revan other than his reputation. And nowhere in his reputation does it say he's definately better than Kreia. Kreia, meanwhile, has a lot more experience under her belt, and she has an understanding of Revan, the Force, and powers we've never seen most people use. She could effectively fake her death, mask her alignment from others, revive the near dead, manipulate at least three lightsabers effectively using the force, force push three jedi masters, one twice and then kill them all in one fel swoop...
The point is, Kreia's accomplishments are varied and visible, and rationally she would be the much better opponent simply because Revan is younger, has a more vaguely outlined history and few if any Force powers are unique to him. Indeed, Revan has effectively opened a door with the Force and choked a Republic officer in cutscenes. Nothing else. This puts him in the visible realm of proof right above Maul. Now, this doesn't preclude his Force affinity, which is supposed to be considerable... But it doesn't neccessarily mean he's some über Force god. Let's consider this:
- Lightsaber fighting- Revan is younger, and has battle precog. We know nothing about Kreia's lightsaber style, except perhaps that it must rely on one handed movements by the time of KOTOR II. I think it's interesting to note that the only lightsaber style that uses one hand effectively is Makashi, actually. Take a look for yourself; Dooku is the only jedi to use a single hand most of the time. However, this is inconclusive on both sides: we don't know just how good Revan's battle precognition is, and if it will save him from someone of Kreia's caliber. We also don't know her relative strength in lightsaber combat.
- The Force: Revan has absorbed knowledge of the jedi through archives and lectures but no one ever mentions the exact nature of all of Revan's learnings at the academy under all his teachers. My guess is he learned predominately history, Force manipulation, and the usual, along with lightsaber combat. But how long he studied and how much he gleened is anyone's guess. He could be as knowledgable about the jedi order as say, the Disciple or even Bastila. There is no way to verify his depth of knowledge and comprehension. The same goes for the Sith lore. You expect me to believe that Revan read, understood, used and mastered more than perhaps a spare few Sith tricks in his three years as a Sith lord? Yes, he had access to a great deal of things, and hsi passion for learning and his single minded approach to knowledge was considerable. Perhaps he can be compared to Ulic in this way, but the point is; it's three years. Not three years straight of pure studying, but three years of combat and whenever he could get some spare time. I find it hard to believe he learned Sith tricks so compelling and devastating in this timeframe from sources that are at best vague and at worst, too many to effectively consider and learn from them all. Certainly, there is nothing to indicate that Revan was that much stronger than Malak, and yet Malak displayed no Force mastey on par with Kreia. End of point, there is nothing to indicate that Revan's Force power is greater than Kreia's.
- Experience: Revan had a few years of war, and this probably shaped him quite well, but I still give this to Kreia. Kreia is ancient... she is perhaps (as I've considered) old enough to have been alive at the time of Exar Kun. Doubtless in her time she has gleaned knowledge, much as Revan has. Perhaps they are more alike then we know. But the point is, Kreia has had much more time to study the Force and apply it, and it does show. She has the widest array of tricks I've seen in the series, and topped off with a cunning mind. Even if her lightsaber skills are much weaker than Revan's and her Force power is a bit lower, she can still turn the fight to her advantage with that old brain of hers. It kept her alive that long, didn't it?
- Actual combat Experience: This is where Revan really takes a dive. We -know- that he fought Malak, Mandalore, and Yusanis. we can guess at perhaps more (Bandon, Davik, etc.) But we really don't know how the battles played out. We can't make any inferences based on his style, speed, saber technique or use of Force powers because none of these battles are described in any amount of detail. There is no canon depiction of these events. And because of that, we can only rely on Revan's reputation and his apparent mindset. But neither of them are convincing reasons as to why he would demonlish Kreia. Period.
Right, but you are right now taking Revan down to the very limits of what we know and not applying any kind of logic to it.
Revan learned a lot, thats for sure everybody says it. Meaning he learned a lot, how much that is we don't know. But its more then Bastila learned thats for sure otherwise he wouldn't be famous for it. Probably a considerable amount more. Why would he be considered a great learner if he did not?
We have heard about his pre-cog and its said thats its better then that of the greatest Echani, who could use it to predict entire wars. Meaning we know that his pre-cog is great, superior to almost any if not all other. Meaning he will be far more likely to see how a fight will go then anybody else. Now against Kreia its going to be even easier to predict because he knows Kreia too, he would know how she fights.
I have nothing on when Kreia joined the Dark Side but I heard somewhere (possibly from you) that this was after the Mandelorian wars. I am not sure however. Meaning Kreia at most got six to seven months more of Dark Side training then Revan did. If its true at least, and if it is then Revan would probably know as much about the Dark Side. I seriously doubt its true, but its a point to consider anyway.
Experience we know that Revan killed those people, we can only assume he did it in a impressive fight with them otherwise the Mandelorians and the Echani would not consider it a good thing and nobody especially not those two groups would consider Revan to be a better fighter. You know this as well as I do. The Echani would never have accepted hundreds of people kicking their leader just to have Revan finish him off. About Kreia outsmarting Revan?
You honestly think that will happen? Kreia is brilliant, so is Revan. He learned from the best and she in turn probably learned from him as well. All in all those two would both be brilliant and great fighters, why would she be able to outsmart Revan when there is no indication at all that he is a weak or stupid fighter. If anything based on his personality he is a great fighter.
About Kreia her lightsaber style, your point being? She could have used any form before the start of Kotor II, maybe she used Ataru. She might have changed at the start of Kotor II I wouldn't be surprised at all, and if thats the case then she is officialy screwed against Revan in a lightsaber fight. Now we have no way of knowing what form she used, but the chances are six against one that she used a form other then Makashi.
And he wouldn't demolish Kreia, i'm just saying he would beat her. She may have the edge in force powers, but thats all she has got the edge in. She can not and will not defeat him in a lightsaber fight. And even in a fight with force powers, well it would probably be a great fight not easily lost by Revan. Still this fight isn't force only and a lightsaber would be used, Revan would take out Kreia with a lightsaber. No it won't be an easy fight, but i'm sure he will win.
Right, but you are right now taking Revan down to the very limits of what we know and not applying any kind of logic to it.
Like I'd ever do that. But thanks for the vote of confidence.
Revan learned a lot, thats for sure everybody says it. Meaning he learned a lot, how much that is we don't know. But its more then Bastila learned thats for sure otherwise he wouldn't be famous for it. Probably a considerable amount more. Why would he be considered a great learner if he did not?
Yes, and I'm sure Canderous knows more in general about life than Carth does. Or Bastila, since he's nearly fifty years old, perhaps sixty in the first game alone. You can -assume- that Revan knows much, but you can't prove to me exactly what he knows, and until you can, he will not win through supposed knowledge.
We have heard about his pre-cog and its said thats its better then that of the greatest Echani, who could use it to predict entire wars. Meaning we know that his pre-cog is great, superior to almost any if not all other. Meaning he will be far more likely to see how a fight will go then anybody else. Now against Kreia its going to be even easier to predict because he knows Kreia too, he would know how she fights.
No, this is bullshit. I've played KOTOR II through almost ten times now. The Handmaiden says his battle precognition is the only instance she's seen outside of the Echani, and she does note that it's better than the Exile's, but she never says that it's better than the eldest Echani. Personally, I think what she did say about the eldest Echani is glorified myth.
I have nothing on when Kreia joined the Dark Side but I heard somewhere (possibly from you) that this was after the Mandelorian wars. I am not sure however. Meaning Kreia at most got six to seven months more of Dark Side training then Revan did. If its true at least, and if it is then Revan would probably know as much about the Dark Side. I seriously doubt its true, but its a point to consider anyway.
First, Kreia disappeared during the Mandalorian Wars, presumably looking for Revan. She ended up on Malachor V and became the head of the Sith Academy there. She had much more time to learn and master Sith techniques then he did as he was a general and she was the caretaker of a library of Sith knowledge. We don't know if there was anything or next to nothing at the academy (Although there was something if people stayed for years there) and we also don't know how much she learned (although we know she has shown considerably strong and unique force talents.) Revan, again, hasn't shown us anything he's learned from Malachor V or Korriban... yet. He could possibly, but as of now we know next to nothign of his Sith force magics.
Experience we know that Revan killed those people, we can only assume he did it in a impressive fight with them otherwise the Mandelorians and the Echani would not consider it a good thing and nobody especially not those two groups would consider Revan to be a better fighter. You know this as well as I do. The Echani would never have accepted hundreds of people kicking their leader just to have Revan finish him off. About Kreia outsmarting Revan?
Ah, and here it comes. We have to -assume-. And again there is nothing concrete here to go upon, other then reputation, as I said. But reputation can be distorted. No one ever said specifically that Revan's prowess in battle against either Mandalore nor Yusanis was notable. It is entirely possible that it was mention just to add more accomplishments to his belt. Bio Ware successfully made a Sith supervillain without giving him a single lightsaber duel to show for it. And by all evidence we do see, the duel between Malak and Revan was supposed to be epic, meaning it was not a five second ordeal. Unless evan was seriously toying with Malak (Which I doubt) I could just as easily assume that Revan was closer to Malak's level then well above it. And Malak could kill an echani leader and a Mandalorian one, I don't doubt, as he was very capable in battle.
You honestly think that will happen? Kreia is brilliant, so is Revan. He learned from the best and she in turn probably learned from him as well. All in all those two would both be brilliant and great fighters, why would she be able to outsmart Revan when there is no indication at all that he is a weak or stupid fighter. If anything based on his personality he is a great fighter.
Look at Obi-Wan versus Anakin- Obi-Wan was the mentor, wiser and obviously a bit smarter. He won the fight not through superior skill or talent with a blade. If anything, he kept himself alive by constantly giving ground and by using the environment. True, the same emotion and single minded drive won't be a factor with Revan, but the point is Kreia's trained Sith and Jedi, and she's had a lifetime of experience. She is very very dangerous, even to Revan. He -could- win, if I assume he is as good as we all hope he is... But from an argument standpoint, that's not enough.
About Kreia her lightsaber style, your point being? She could have used any form before the start of Kotor II, maybe she used Ataru. She might have changed at the start of Kotor II I wouldn't be surprised at all, and if thats the case then she is officialy screwed against Revan in a lightsaber fight. Now we have no way of knowing what form she used, but the chances are six against one that she used a form other then Makashi.
I was merely musing on the point about Makashi. The real issue here is we don't know which one she used, though we can make a guess based on her comments on each in KOTOR II. She liked Makashi, but stressed caution with it. Note that Kreia is familar with all the styles, even if she doesn't neccessarily practice them. This means that regardless of which form she uses, it's unlikely that Revan (even using Makashi) will have a significant advantage over her. Also, I pointed out Makashi because she does have one hand from that point on. Unless she learned to fight totally different and still used principles from another form (Which is possible) it would make sense that she adopted Makashi to make the most of her single arm in combat. It's speculation, not my ultimate drive home point. Relax.
And he wouldn't demolish Kreia, i'm just saying he would beat her. She may have the edge in force powers, but thats all she has got the edge in. She can not and will not defeat him in a lightsaber fight. And even in a fight with force powers, well it would probably be a great fight not easily lost by Revan. Still this fight isn't force only and a lightsaber would be used, Revan would take out Kreia with a lightsaber. No it won't be an easy fight, but i'm sure he will win.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't have a shred of evidence to support -either- of them in lightsaber combat, only assumptions. Same here. However, Kreia has a welath more of experience and massive Force powers, enough to kill three jedi masters. And about that, you suggested that she was channeling it through the exile, which I thought might be true. But I've been thinking, that power should be specific to the Exile alone. Even if she tried to channel it, it would consume here... unless she had sufficient knowledge and mastery of it already to use it without hurting herself. She surely didn't hesitate with it. It came instantly. For now, I'm going with the simplest answer, which is probably the correct one- Kreia can use that technique. I think your theory was good and worth noting, but there's so many unanswered questions...
With both of them..
But Janus seriously... Lets just look at Revan his fights okay.
We know that he cut through many masters in the temple of ancients, how many we do not know we know he did go through them though and there had to be a few of them. We know he managed to get through the star forge and he killed droids on which Malak said
"Strange I did not think there were any in the order that would survive an attack of the Star Forge droids" or something like that. Obviously he thought everybody would die. Revan survived, meaning that either Malak heavily overestimates the droids or that Revan was more powerful then anybody in the order.
Now the fight with Malak himself, we know Revan cut through a lot of people after constant fighting. This was going to be hard and probably made him tired. We know he defeated Malak at least twice, so we know that even a probably weakened and tired Revan was more powerful then Malak. Now if he was tired the fight between him and Malak that he won fair and square by being better (otherwise Malak would not admit defeat like he did) can't be that good of an indication. We would just know that even a tired Revan would be better then the guy that beat Kavar. Who was one of the if not the most powerful Master of the Order. Meaning that Revan was more powerful then even the most powerful master in the order. Now of course he could have been in a perfect condition which could mean two things
- Revan and Malak really were close in power
- Revan was toying with Malak.
Knowing what we do about Revan the second seems to be absolute bullshit, so he they were close in power. If what Malak says is true and it probably has some truth in it, then it would mean that he is more powerful then any master in the order, probably by a fair amount.
Revan still took Malak down twice in a row.
Yeah you are right we don't know anything about the fight, and i'm not accusing you of anything here but I really do have the feeling you don't want to assume anything. Yeah you are right I don't have facts to show Revan has a chance against Kreia. But I can make a lot of supported assumptions. With people like Revan its all we have. Same goes for Ragnos who by all facts is nothing compared to Kreia but with all logical assumptions would own pretty much everybody.
But Janus seriously... Lets just look at Revan his fights okay.
I did.
We know that he cut through many masters in the temple of ancients, how many we do not know we know he did go through them though and there had to be a few of them. We know he managed to get through the star forge and he killed droids on which Malak said
"Strange I did not think there were any in the order that would survive an attack of the Star Forge droids" or something like that. Obviously he thought everybody would die. Revan survived, meaning that either Malak heavily overestimates the droids or that Revan was more powerful then anybody in the order.
Your first part sounds like you've been studying under ER- we have NO idea how many jedi or masters or anything Revan has fought, period. Not cutscenes, not narration statements, no explicit references, and nothing to go on, save for your gameplay experience, which doesn't count.
As for the comment, it was "I should have known those droids wouldn't finish you off. You've become far more powerful than you were." paraphrased. This gives us the indication that KOTOR Revan>preKOTOR Revan, if Malak isn't just spouting off nonsense, teasing Revan. And if this is the case, and Revan still had an epic duel with Malak, this means that KOTOR Revan is very slightly above Malak. And Kreia would OWN Malak.
Now the fight with Malak himself, we know Revan cut through a lot of people after constant fighting.
No, we don't.
This was going to be hard and probably made him tired.
Where does it say he fought anyone at all? He could have slipped past the dark jedi invaders and let the jedi assault team and his own allies soak up the firepower. The only fights that were neccessary include some weak droids, Bastila, and three dark jedi. If he's winded after that, he's much weaker than you're making him out to be. But again, you're assuming based on nothing. Don't do that.
We know he defeated Malak at least twice, so we know that even a probably weakened and tired Revan was more powerful then Malak.
When was Malak beaten twice? Did I miss that? It sounds like something you heard someone else say and you let it evolve into something it's not. Revan didn't fight Malak twice. It was one battle, period. And if he was weakened and tired from leading the assault on the Star Forge, Revan must suck. If anything, you're making up excuses for the epicness of the battle to justify his apparent lack of über power, and instead making him seem weaker then he was.
Now if he was tired the fight between him and Malak that he won fair and square by being better (otherwise Malak would not admit defeat like he did) can't be that good of an indication. We would just know that even a tired Revan would be better then the guy that beat Kavar. Who was one of the if not the most powerful Master of the Order. Meaning that Revan was more powerful then even the most powerful master in the order. Now of course he could have been in a perfect condition which could mean two things
Malak admitted defeat because he lay dying. He never said "omfg, Revan u noob... u beat me fair and square". There is nothing to indicate whether it was trickery, superior lightsaber skill, Force powers... nothing. But whatever Revan did to Malak, he didn't die right away. That much is apparent. And yes, Malak beat Kavar. But this doesn't make it Revan>Malak>Kavar as you suggest. Malak could have just as easily been fortunate to defeat Kavar. He IS a Sith. No one ever said he played fair. So please, don't make assumptions on false logic like this.
- Revan and Malak really were close in power
- Revan was toying with Malak.
Yes, I said that before.
Knowing what we do about Revan the second seems to be absolute bullshit, so he they were close in power. If what Malak says is true and it probably has some truth in it, then it would mean that he is more powerful then any master in the order, probably by a fair amount.
Nope. Unsupported bullshit, spawned by poor logic.
Revan still took Malak down twice in a row.
Since when the hell does it become two fights? When does the first one end and the second one begin? This is ER bullshit I'm hearing, Fishy.
Yeah you are right we don't know anything about the fight, and i'm not accusing you of anything here but I really do have the feeling you don't want to assume anything. Yeah you are right I don't have facts to show Revan has a chance against Kreia. But I can make a lot of supported assumptions. With people like Revan its all we have. Same goes for Ragnos who by all facts is nothing compared to Kreia but with all logical assumptions would own pretty much everybody.
And the difference here is:
- Revan has a complete lack of evidence to support his case. Kreia doesn't.
- Unliek Ragnos, Revan hasn't shown being the undisputed Sith of his time. He was apparently undisputed for awhile, and his title wasn't usurped in a fair fight, but that doesn't mean Revan>everyone else in the KOTOR era. If anything, the one person you can kinda sorta relate his power to (Malak) is dwarfed by Kreia's visible powers. Period.
No Janus, the assumptions have a good basis. Have you seen the Star Forge Revan could not have sneaked past that.
Revan would have faced Jedi on the Star Forge and in the Temple of ancients, its pretty clear the Rakatan describe the place as to be filled with Dark Jedi, now of course they couldn't be sure but they probably based it on something. Revan would have faced people there and not just a few. The star forge was under attack the Dark Jedi paid attention to what was going on, and there are some breaks in the game where we see Dark Jedi charging Revan.
He fought at least 15 easily just by those scenes. And that doesn't even say anything about the one's he would most likely have faced. No denying that, play the Star Forge level again if you doubt it. But there are several times when Revan would have had no choice but to fight Dark Jedi.
And how is what Malak said unsupported bullshit Spawned by poor logic? I agree Malak may be lying but he would not act as surprised as he did or as scared as he did if it did not have a basis of truth. He also send out the apprentices with only one goal find and kill Revan. Now those guys would have guarded the turbo lifts, hell they did those were the most dangerous parts of the Star Forge.
We also know that Malak made Revan fight a bunch of other droids right after Revan defeated three of the most powerful sith on the star forge except for Malak or Bastila. We know Revan fought a lot more then you are willing to admit in that post.
And don't accuse me of being like ER, I am not saying Revan will win this without any doubt. I am not saying Revan is superior to Kreia with the force, I do not even believe so. All I am saying is that Revan has a really good chance against here based on a lot of things that are certain. All drawn from text in the game, yeah okay they weren't movies. But it was still used and you can still draw conclusions from that. Revan his fights although not shown were won because he was better and he did face a lot of opponents, the guy knew how to wield a lightsaber.
And if that isn't enough consider this.
Malak was said to be the best lightsaber duellist in the order second to only one Revan. Malak was a legendaric dueller and a front line general in two wars and had seen a lot of fights. Still Revan was better. It has to mean something. Logic just dictates that he is a great duellist and powerful with the force.
Here we go again.
No Janus, the assumptions have a good basis. Have you seen the Star Forge Revan could not have sneaked past that.
Uh, the Star Forge is filled with goons just like any other area in the game. Am I to expect that Revan single handedly fought every enemy in the game, and that each enemy was so strong they must be considered and Revan must therefore be great? Or better yet, should I just go play Jedi Academy and say that Jaden was better since he killed mobs of people, dark jedi, and even fought an incarnation of Ragnos' spirit in someone else's body? The assumptions are too VAGUE to support themselves.
Revan would have faced Jedi on the Star Forge and in the Temple of ancients, its pretty clear the Rakatan describe the place as to be filled with Dark Jedi, now of course they couldn't be sure but they probably based it on something. Revan would have faced people there and not just a few. The star forge was under attack the Dark Jedi paid attention to what was going on, and there are some breaks in the game where we see Dark Jedi charging Revan.
First off, you have no idea at this point of knowing how Revan confronted anyone in the game, much less the dark jedi. He could have snuck past them, distracted them, killed them with a toothpick, whatever. But my point is you don't have a damn thing to base his skill off of. Like I said, in ROTJ the game, Luke kills jawas and womprats and mynocks all day long, along with stormtroopers. Jaden in Jedi Academy kills dark jedi like it's his job, and he's a weak jedi knight. You might want to consider, as I told ER, that the enemies are primarily for gameplay's sake and not to say "omfg revan killz dudez lol". Sick and ****ing tired of hearing how great revan is because he has his own game. It's like Anakin must be god because he has his own movies. Jesus.
Second point, you don't even know who was on the Star Forge with Revan. It could have easilybeen the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk, not counting the jedi assault teams. How does this make Revan great? Why would these battles tire him? If he is the "Heart of the Force", why would he grow tired? No, that doesn't add up.
He fought at least 15 easily just by those scenes. And that doesn't even say anything about the one's he would most likely have faced. No denying that, play the Star Forge level again if you doubt it. But there are several times when Revan would have had no choice but to fight Dark Jedi.
No, he didn't. Even if they charged him, he could have leapt over them, run on, used the Force to shove some off of those walkways, etc. It's never proved that he physically fought each and everyone. Period. And he had -many- choices. If he's as smart as you claim he is, why would he be forced into so many confrontations?
And how is what Malak said unsupported bullshit Spawned by poor logic? I agree Malak may be lying but he would not act as surprised as he did or as scared as he did if it did not have a basis of truth. He also send out the apprentices with only one goal find and kill Revan. Now those guys would have guarded the turbo lifts, hell they did those were the most dangerous parts of the Star Forge.
"Knowing what we do about Revan the second seems to be absolute bullshit, so he they were close in power. If what Malak says is true and it probably has some truth in it, then it would mean that he is more powerful then any master in the order, probably by a fair amount. "
That's what you said, and it was unsupported bullshit. Revan is not explicitly or even implicitly better than all the jedi masters of the order. you jumped to this conclusion by saying that Malak beat Kavar and Kavar is somehow the best the order has, and Revan beat Malak, therefore he must be better than Kavar who is the best in the order. It's bullshit. You don't even know how Kavar lost to Malak, period. You're assuming on an assumption!
We also know that Malak made Revan fight a bunch of other droids right after Revan defeated three of the most powerful sith on the star forge except for Malak or Bastila. We know Revan fought a lot more then you are willing to admit in that post.
Uh, right. Just above you stated that certain areas of the Star Forge were dangerous. Youa re of course, using a gameplay mechanic to reference this, but let me use some of your own medicine to work through your logic here. Those droids were ****ing easy as hell. Does this mean they sucked? Or could it be that game play difficulty has NO bearing on the events as they actually occured? Or how about this... Just how strong are those three anyways? Are they better than Bandon? They sure are harder to defeat in game. Then why would Bandon be picked over them to be the next Sith Lord if they are individually more difficult in game? Oh right... game play experience, mechancis, and assumptions are all null and void in a debate where we use some grounded facts to find out things.
And don't accuse me of being like ER, I am not saying Revan will win this without any doubt. I am not saying Revan is superior to Kreia with the force, I do not even believe so. All I am saying is that Revan has a really good chance against here based on a lot of things that are certain. All drawn from text in the game, yeah okay they weren't movies. But it was still used and you can still draw conclusions from that. Revan his fights although not shown were won because he was better and he did face a lot of opponents, the guy knew how to wield a lightsaber.
Actually, you're arguing until you're blue in the face when you have nothing to go on, just like ER. I personally think you're a much better debater than he was, but from what I'm seeing, you can be just like him. And you cannot effectively draw ANY conclusions on lightsaber skill or technique based on the game as you've put it. The respective lightsaber talents of both parties will remain inconclusive until there is (assuming there ever will be) a canon stated preference for both.
And if that isn't enough consider this.
Malak was said to be the best lightsaber duellist in the order second to only one Revan. Malak was a legendaric dueller and a front line general in two wars and had seen a lot of fights. Still Revan was better. It has to mean something. Logic just dictates that he is a great duellist and powerful with the force.
First off, where specifically does it say Malak was the best lightsaber duellist in the Order? Where does it say Malak was legendary? Where does it say specifically that he's a front line general? You could be very right on these points, and I've held similar views myself, but if you're going to put these up like they're fact, I want some cited sources I can double check. And then I want one where it says that Kreia's lightsaber skills are so far beneath Malak's that she could never posisbly hold her on in combat against Revan. THEN I'll believe the argument you have here.
First of all...
I am talking about a few Jedi not a shit load of them. I have never said he faced the hundreds he did, I am saying he faced at least 15. I never said how he killed them, just saying that he killed them. If he used the force or not hardly matters. And the only that could have been powerful enough to help him in those fights was Bastila. Jolee and Juhani were nice but not powerful enough the rest are none force users and won't be good enough to defeat a lot of Dark Jedi. And Revan could not walk around them, they locked the door 😛
And no those apprentices were weaker then Bandon, hell they probably weren't even the most powerful under Malak. Just on the Star Forge at that time. I am not talking about gameplay experiences here, just about certain quotes and things that were forced to happen in the game.
But let me just put those things in a list... Maybe it will work
- Malak is said (by I believe Zhar) to be the best duellist in the order second only to Revan. I think Zaj Kal Ell confirms it on Nar Shardaa but I'm not sure. Anyways i'm going to start playing Kotor again soon, i'll give you some exact quotes.
- Carth Onasi says he's a front line general, I believe Zhar and Vrook do too. Again i'm not sure i'll tell you the exact quotes when I play the game again.
Point is, i've heard it i'm sure of that. I don't remember where exactly. But Malak was the best Revan wa sbetter. We know it took a lot of power to control the Star Forge, as only two people could do it. Maybe some of the Jedi Masters but we don't know. What we do know however is that Malak and Revan would be above the rest by a reasonable amount during their reign to control the Star Forge.
Nobody could do it after both of them were gone meaning that the Star Forge was sabotaged as you have argued before, which I find very unlikely or that just nobody was powerful enough. Not saying anything specific about Revan his force powers but at least that it was good.
Now we have quotes on his lightsaber skills, and well I can argue until i'm dead about those fights but you want pure facts, I'll take the assumptions because I think they show enough. At least in this case. But tell you what, lets just drop this for now. I'll come back when I have the exact quotes and we can continue the debate then.
Double Post sorry.
Now when I think about it...any vs battle with Revan is almost like a vs battle with Tulak Hord or Anjuna Pall. We simply don't no enought about him. IMO Revan would defeat Kreia, but hey this is only my opinon and my opinon is most likley warped from Revan being my favorate character so don't take my opinon seriosuly. I just have a hard time seeing Kreia waving her hand and making Revan drop dead. In a way I think Revan is both overestimated and underestimated. We have people like ER saying that Revan could defeat Ragnos which is pure crap. Ragnos would waste Revan with a flick of his hand. Then we have other people who claim Revan could be weak and defeated by Mace Windu because everything we know about him is based on assumtion and that just drives me nuts. Hell most of the stuff we use to debate is based on assumtion. Call me stupid and maybe I am, but this is what I am seeing.
And that's why we have to make solid, final decisions based on what we do know, and point out that there are things we don't know.
But instead on this damn forum, people's minds change like a kid's shitty diapers. I mean, most people don't question the decision reached regarding Ragnos' power until it concerns someone they don't want to admit is inferior. Then suddenly theres a huge uproar, and despite evidence and logic to the contrary, people will try to detract. I'm seeing a lot of bias on this forum against Exar Kun as well, Assajj Ventress, Grievious even. And yet people like ROTJ Luke are getting a virtual handjob and a cake from all their fans, Revan can take anyone, without any evidence of skill... Mace is better than Dooku, who's better than Yoda who's better than Sidious who lived in the house that Jack built. I mean, this place has suddenly lost it's mind. I'm more than a little tired of this circular reasoning crap. I'm debating on giving KMC a break.
Originally posted by Lord Janus
And that's why we have to make solid, final decisions based on what we do know, and point out that there are things we don't know.But instead on this damn forum, people's minds change like a kid's shitty diapers. I mean, most people don't question the decision reached regarding Ragnos' power until it concerns someone they don't want to admit is inferior. Then suddenly theres a huge uproar, and despite evidence and logic to the contrary, people will try to detract. I'm seeing a lot of bias on this forum against Exar Kun as well, Assajj Ventress, Grievious even. And yet people like ROTJ Luke are getting a virtual handjob and a cake from all their fans, Revan can take anyone, without any evidence of skill... Mace is better than Dooku, who's better than Yoda who's better than Sidious who lived in the house that Jack built. I mean, this place has suddenly lost it's mind. I'm more than a little tired of this circular reasoning crap. I'm debating on giving KMC a break.
You make a good point...these forums are going down the toobs.
I come to KMC now only to discuss stuff with my internet friends (if such a word can be used to describe having a conversation with someone who could be a rapist making himself out to be some cool dude. I mean for all I know Janus you may be some sick bastard who kidnapps little children-no offense intended.