Originally posted by Ushgarak
When someone says that you can insult them and its fine but insult KOTOR and the gloves come off, that is nothing to do with convincing. That IS fanboyism. So read more carefully in future.
ieehh.. fanboyismm.. Who made that up anyway.. 😘
How do we know when someones gloves come off anyway, if someone wants to keep their opinion, fine. Maybe they just don't understand.
Well, I'll cheerfully withdraw and and just say it is silly, if you prefer.
And I'll repeat again for the record that I LIKE KotoR. I just:
a. Think the plot was better than many games, but not the genius thing people make it out to be
b. Had silly Force powers (belonging more to an arcade game than an RP)
c. Had some thematic 'issues'
That's all small change; the central part of it is just fine.
This thread is about one of those thematic issues.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
ATTACHMENT equals an absolute bad, NOT just love. How many times do we need to make this distinction?
Did you watch ROTS, Ushgarak ? "Only Sith deal in absolutes!" 😉
The kind of love that Anakin might have had for Luke was that of a father not a lover; he was not attached in the way you would be for a partner.
He was attached to Luke, Leia, Sidious and Padme. Personal relations have a very strong influence in the SW saga and as I said before it's not always bad. Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? A rational thought like "Oh...I shouldn't kill Vader, that's not the way of the Jedi despite the fact that Yoda told me I must do that" ? No.
And he was redeemed by his son, but only because his son allowed him to reflect on his life. There is absolutely no indication that love for his suddenly turned him good- it certainly hadn't earlier. It was only at that last moment in ROTJ that he finally saw the truth of it all.
Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ? He simply couldn't watch his son getting killed (because he DID love his child) and because of that he killed the Emperor.
Yet if Vader has been attached to his son to the point of fearing to lose him... then yes, that would be just as wrong as love for a partner. Attachment would cause fear would bring the Dark Side. The logic cannot be escaped. It will bring you down, it will never help bring you up, for the Fear will still be there.
From a moral point of view that attachment to his son was wrong but at least it did lead to the death of the Emperor and the destruction of the Sith. Vader killed the Emperor because of emotions (this WAS in fact a dark side action) but the result was overall "good".
If you cannot let go of the attachment, and so the fear, you are doomed.
See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side.
See...If you can accept the fact that people have to die you don't have to fear their death any longer.
KOTOR absolutely contradicts Star Wars in that department. I am sorry but it simply does. It ignored what GL has to say on WHY attachment is bad for a Jedi.
At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side. And here you should "think out of the box" as Lucas always says to the fans. If there are no absolutes ("Only Sith deal in absolutes."😉 then there is no way you can say that something is only "good" or "evil". From a moralist point of view you can but from that point of view there is noone that always acts moraly right in the movies.
Originally posted by Nai FohlYou have made all the points that I was to literate do put across thanks.
Did you watch ROTS, Ushgarak ? "Only Sith deal in absolutes!" 😉He was attached to Luke, Leia, Sidious and Padme. Personal relations have a very strong influence in the SW saga and as I said before it's not always bad. Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? A rational thought like "Oh...I shouldn't kill Vader, that's not the way of the Jedi despite the fact that Yoda told me I must do that" ? No.
Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ? He simply couldn't watch his son getting killed (because he DID love his child) and because of that he killed the Emperor.
From a moral point of view that attachment to his son was wrong but at least it did lead to the death of the Emperor and the destruction of the Sith. Vader killed the Emperor because of emotions (this WAS in fact a dark side action) but the result was overall "good".
See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side.
See...If you can accept the fact that people have to die you don't have to fear their death any longer.
At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side. And here you should "think out of the box" as Lucas always says to the fans. If there are no absolutes ("Only Sith deal in absolutes."😉 then there is no way you can say that something is only "good" or "evil". From a moralist point of view you can but from that point of view there is noone that always acts moraly right in the movies.
In the end what made Luke stronge was his love, his love for his father his sister and his friends. Maybe if all jedi did the same maybe they wouldnt go down the dark side. Take Ana if he was aloud to be with Pad he would of told Obi about his visions then he would not of gone to the extremes that he did thinking he could save her. He would of told Obi and Obi would of helped him but NO he had to keep it to himself
Originally posted by Revan Souer
You have made all the points that I was to literate do put across thanks.In the end what made Luke stronge was his love, his love for his father his sister and his friends. Maybe if all jedi did the same maybe they wouldnt go down the dark side. Take Ana if he was aloud to be with Pad he would of told Obi about his visions then he would not of gone to the extremes that he did thinking he could save her. He would of told Obi and Obi would of helped him but NO he had to keep it to himself
Sorry...but now you are again missjudging the consequences of "love" on a Jedi.
a)
It wasn't love that made Luke strong. In fact he was either afraid of the thought that Vader and Sidious might pull Leia to the Dark Side or he was angry because Vader said he would do that. So Luke used either fear or anger to fight Vader back so he was using "dark side" emotions to win but at least stopped that emotions before killing Vader - if he had done it than he would have become the Emperors apprentice. No doubt.
b)
As I said: The consequences of love are not determined by the fact that a Jedi loves somebody. It's the Jedi's personality that leads to the dark side (being obsessed or unable to control his emoitions).
So if Anakin would have been allowed to have an relationship with Padme that wouldn't have changed his personality. He still wouldn't have been able to accept the fact that he might lose Padme at a certain point of his life. He still would have thrusted the Emperor because he is something like a father for him. He still would have turned to the dark side because he simply couldn't accept the idea of losing a beloved person.
Will people stop using 'Only Sith deal in absolutes' as a valid arguement? I don't get that, really I don't. What, is Ush a Sith? It cannot be used.
Ush is right, though Nai Fohl's 'If they can let go...' does work. Though, I highly doubt they can just 'let go.' It's very hard to do. They may accept the deaths as a future thing, but the depression and anger from the actual death would topple them.
Vader's love for Luke? I don't think Vader was afraid of losing him, he KNEW he was losing him, seeing as Palpatine was cooking him like a sausage. The sudden realization and whatever came with it caused Vader to toss Palpatine into the shaft.
Originally posted by Revan SouerDude, it's the Dark Side of the FORCE. What do you think that it's actually real? We're not talking about love leading to you losing your house over divorce or anything tangible--real. No, we're talking about it leading down a path to something that doesn't exist.
Begin afraid to lose something can also give you strenght and saying passion is dangous is cr1p, there are no absolutes in this world even gravity has its so called loop holes. Passion can lead to angrue but it can also lead to other things. I bet even LJ has felt passion befire does that mean he is gonna bash someones head in?
Everybody happens strong emotions every day and we dont go round looping peoples heads of now do we, so why cant the jedi are they really that weak that they can't handle being in love, I strongly doubt it.Just because some stuffy jedi a billion years ago says you shouldnt fall inlove doesnt mean it is right. Take the Catholic Church even they had to change there ways and allow there followers a choice so why would the Jedi?
Originally posted by Captain REX
Will people stop using 'Only Sith deal in absolutes' as a valid arguement? I don't get that, really I don't. What, is Ush a Sith? It cannot be used.
Actually it is a valid argument and if you don't like me to refer to SW on this point I can bring up Socrates ("Scio me nihil scire" - "I know that I know nothing"😉 and have a debate with you about "absolute truth" and why it doesn't exist.
The point is that Lucas himself doesn't use attachments, relationships or love in a dogmatic way like "attachment is evil for a force user". What do you think was the reason for Lucas to read that many philosophical and spiritual / mythical books before creating Star Wars - to end up with a story where everything is simple, straight and dogmatic ?
If you have ever thought about the philosophy or spirituality behind Star Wars you might come to the conclusion that Anakin is more likely a mirror than a developed character. He doesn't fall to the dark side because of a singular act of evil - he walks down all the way because of (small) decissions and choices. And they all are based on his individual character. And thereby he mirrors the everyday life of a normal human being. You can decide - you can do right or wrong. That choice is up to you and what's right or wrong may also be determined by your personality.
And because Anakin is that "human" he isn't a real Jedi. That is told in AotC after Anakin killed the sandpeople.
Padme: "To be angry is to be human"
Anakin: "I'm a Jedi I know I'm better than this"
So he acts human but in the same situation knows that he shouldn't do that.
Ush is right, though Nai Fohl's 'If they can let go...' does work. Though, I highly doubt they can just 'let go.' It's very hard to do. They may accept the deaths as a future thing, but the depression and anger from the actual death would topple them.
How many people will go mad because losing a beloved person (or just the thought that it MIGHT happen) ? How many people do think about losing somebody they love everyday ? I personally don't know anybody that wakes up in the morning with the thought "Hell...I would be totally screwed if my wife / husband / girlfriend / boyfriend will die tomorrow" because people normaly don't even think about situations like that.
And being able to "let go" is part of the Jedi philosophy. That's stated at several occassions in ROTS. When Anakin comes to talk to Yoda about his vision Yoda tells him that this is how life works - people die and you have to accept it. Later Obi-Wan and Yoda are talking about Anakin and they both say that they would sacrifice each others life if they are in need to do so and Anakin isn't able to do that.
A real Jedi would act with the same thought in mind that is mentioned for serveral times in "Heat" by Robert DeNiro: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."
But what does that mean ? That any attachment will automatically lead to the dark side ? No. Not if you cling to the Jedi codex. And Anakin does ignore the codex when it comes to emotional issues. He isn't able to control his love for Padme since he is obsessed and not really "in love". I mean...have a look at his decissions and thoughts. In AotC when Padme fell out of that gunboat immediatly Anakin wants to land and pick her up - knowing that she wasn't hurt. How stupid is that ? You have the chance to prevent a war thereby saving millions of lives and you are willing to sacrifice that chance because you want to pick someone up despite the fact you know that he is allright - how stupid is that ? That is the situation in which you can see best what Anakins feeling are like. He is totally egoistic, obsessed and not caring about "higher means" and therefore that relation MUST lead to the dark side.
But for a "real" Jedi - somebody that has the ability to control his emotions an attachment or relationship doesn't necessarily have to be "bad" - it could, it most likely is but that isn't an "absolut" or "dogmatic" thing.
Vader's love for Luke? I don't think Vader was afraid of losing him, he KNEW he was losing him, seeing as Palpatine was cooking him like a sausage. The sudden realization and whatever came with it caused Vader to toss Palpatine into the shaft.
What do you think made Vader kill a person he had seen as kind of a father for 3 decades ? What made him sacrifice his own life to save Luke - somebody that he didn't really know very well ? The "realization" that he did something wrong before ? Ask yourself for which persons you would risk or sacrifice your own life - to the people you love (if any) and most likely your children.
I think we would all agree that Vaders love for his son turned him around, thasts the bottom line. If it was fear of lose him because he had feelings for him. And the same goes for Luke when he defeats Vader. Yes he is angry and afraid of what will happen to Leia if he fails to defeat the Emp but his fear is brought about because he loves his sister, if he didnt he wouldnt care. It is also love that keeps him from killing Vader and I quote "I can't kill my own Father" why because he loves him.
I still think that if Ana would of been able to talk to someone else about his feels other then Sid then things would of been different. Do you really think Yoda would of told him about the darkside and the possiblity that if he learned it he could bring her back from the dead, Im guessing no. Yoda would of helped, but Ana couldnt tell him because of the fact Jedi aren't meant to grow atachments.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Acting on the part of inidivudals? What does that even mean? It makes no difference. The base of it all is wrong.I don't know why people are so desperate to believe that attachment can be a positve thing in a Jedi's life. GL's override on this is absolutely clear- it can NOT be.
And KOTOR flirting around with Dark Siders turning good again is one of its problemns- a tired old EU cliche that detracts from the power of the films.
It means that you can choose what to do, you have the freedom to kill or save Bastila. The whole love content is truly up to the player.
Originally posted by Revan Souer
I think we would all agree that Vaders love for his son turned him around, thasts the bottom line. If it was fear of lose him because he had feelings for him. And the same goes for Luke when he defeats Vader. Yes he is angry and afraid of what will happen to Leia if he fails to defeat the Emp but his fear is brought about because he loves his sister, if he didnt he wouldnt care. It is also love that keeps him from killing Vader and I quote "I can't kill my own Father" why because he loves him.
Still that doesn't mean that love made them stronger. In fact they both used the dark side in that certain situatios and being turned to the light again after doing so.
I still think that if Ana would of been able to talk to someone else about his feels other then Sid then things would of been different. Do you really think Yoda would of told him about the darkside and the possiblity that if he learned it he could bring her back from the dead, Im guessing no. Yoda would of helped, but Ana couldnt tell him because of the fact Jedi aren't meant to grow atachments.
As I said: There is no way that Anakin could have been saved because of his character. He was talking to Yoda and Yoda told him that death is a natural part of life and Anakin can't simply accept this. And even if he could have talked to thousands of people the decission is always between "letting Padme go" or "doing anything to save" her and it is his decission. In fact he knew the two options and their consequences and made his choice - and did the wrong thing. And he will always repeat that because again he was "human" where he should have been "a Jedi" (meaning: something better).
Nai, I think you are mistaking love for attachment.
Loving is nothing bad and if you can love and can let go of the one you are married to and your children then there is no problem. As long as you will always put the Jedi first and love the Jedi order more there is no problem. But its only human to do not do that, its only human to be afraid to lose them.
Love leads to attachment, which leads to fear, anger hope... No love is not bad, and love is what turned Vader back to the light side. Love is what created Anakin Skywalker the second time. Love, but not attachment, he wasn't attached to Luke he didn't even know Luke. It was the love of a father for a son. Not attachment.
Love is too debatable a subject to be summarized on a SW forum. Especially when referring love to Force-users in SW. Anakin's overly-obsessive love towards Padme is what lead to his fall. But his sudden estranged love for his son at the last minute saved him.
Luke did NOT have an obsessive attachment to anybody. He didn't even realize Leia was his sister till a few days before the battle. Anakin had over half his life to dwell on Padme. In the heat of the fight, when Vader was taunting Luke about turning Leia to the Dark, it was the anxiety of having his twin sister fall to the Dark Side. Not die. To the Dark.
Love and obssesion/attachment is a big plot-hole in SW. The movies are spread over too long a time for the writers to fill in every bit.
Nai Fohl, I am afraid you still have it wrong.
First of all, Obi-Wan's line about absolutes does not override what GL himself has said about good and evil. It was clearly a riposte to what Anakin had just said. You could apply it to someone's interpretation over whether something is absolutely right or wrong, but the fact that good and evil as absolute entities exist in Star Wars is, I am afraid, an independant fact- it was the reason he made the Saga and goes to the core of Star War' existence.
"Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? "
Because he saw he was turning INTO Vader. Nothing to do with love. Surprised you could think otherwise.
"Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ?"
Yes. Why? GL said so. End of argument- sorry.
"See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side. "
I am afriad both the films and GL contradict you. Again, GL has directly said that Anakin's PROBLEM is that he forms attachment. Attachment for a Jedi is bad- again, from GL, and so irrefutable.
If you let go of the attachment, that is not having the attachment. As should be obvious. So, attachment, bad- getting rid of attachment = the solution.
"At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side"
That is sheer pedanticism. Very well, if you prefer- attachment is bad for a force user. It will send you to the Dark Side, and it will only strengthen that position if you have them whilst Dark, because attachment causes fear.
So sorry, but you are continually wrong here.