Lucifer and Michael vs. Great Evil Beast

Started by Xplosive11 pages

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA is The Source, they both are aspects of Yahweh used by him for the creation of the omniverse, TOAA"The SOURCE" is Gods Will, the Creators manifested power for the creation for all of reality. the Phoenix Force went directly into The Source, that is telling everyone IT IS TOAA without saying its TOAA.

this is how I view it should be:
1. YHWH = The Father
2. The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/TGEB
3. The Word/Lucifer/Michael
4. The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force
5. Imperiex Prime he is the embodiment of Entropy and Entropy is Eternitys younger brother which will replace Eternity someday.

No Marvel TOAA=Yahweh. As The Presence is aspect of Yahew, also Phoenix Force is ascept of TOAA.
TOAA=Yahweh
The Presence=Phoenix Force, quite logical

Phoenix Force alone has as The Presence full power to create multiverse, while Lucifer need help of Michael or Michael need help of Lucifer to create Mulitverese.

TOAA=Yahweh
The Presence=Phoenix Force

Originally posted by supremthor
you have a point my bad but i still wouldnt place the ThePhoenix Force above lucifer and michael may in the same league but not above them in terms of power. michel is the power of god and lucifer is the brains of god. michael is above way above lucifer in terms of power but lucifer prove u dont have to be powerful to win ur battels.wats i saying is ThePhoenix Force MAYBE more powerful then lucifer but shes not more powerful then michael.

Your mistake is that you keep seeing the Phoenix Force as an entity. It isnt. It is the creation power of the Crown. So the force is pretty much second to none but TOAA in Marvel as has been stated in the past.

Jean is avatar of this power. She carries out the will of the Crown. It is she through her connection with the power that makes creation and keeps the cycle going. She is on an equal footing with the likes of Michael and Lucifer. However they like her work for a power greater than themselves which is why there is a distinction between Jean as the White Crown Phoenix and the creation power of the Crown which is the phoenix force.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
AT IT AGAIN GS? {i wonder why just about everyone stoppped talkin when u started, hmmm, must be my imagination}

No need to take that tone. Lets be grown up and just have fun debating. Isnt that what this forum is for?

In the beginning there was only God, and God created the Archangels Michael and Samael, also known as Lucifer Morningstar, the bringer of light. Michael used his power to create the first matter, and Lucifer's will shaped it into suns and thus the universe was created. [Lucifer #26]

God preordained everything in the universe, everything was already written, and everything had to follow the script. Lucifer was a wise, caring and passionate angel and ultimately that was what brought about his downfall. The caring Lucifer questioned the Presence's master plan and the fact that he had to follow the plan too, and started a rebellion. Lucifer managed to get one third of the host of heaven under his banner and stormed the Silver City. The fight didn't go to well for Lucifer, his brother Michael had to much power in him, and pushed Lucifer's army to the edges of heaven, and finally, they were banished from Heaven. [Lucifer #11]

Around ten billion years ago after falling for an eternity they would up in the metaphysical realm that would one day become known as Hell. Realizing that it would be impossible to return Lucifer began his reign in Hell and became the undisputed Lord of Evil for ages. Though being the most powerful of demons, he rarely ventured from his throne in Dis. Lucifer ruled hell for ten billion years, but he never liked it, he got bored, so bored he manipulated the demons who lived in hell. He set them one against the other, let them faction, divide and plot.

At the end of a course of events known as "American Gothic", connected to the world-shattering Crisis, a force called the Ultimate Darkness arose and merged with the Divine. This resulted in a civil war in Hell, something which ultimately made Lucifer allow it to be ruled by a Triumvirate consisting of Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, Azazel the Abomination, and himself. This

One day, Dream of the Endless (Morpheus) decided it was time to get his ex-girlfriend out from hell, he was feeling a bit bad about sending her to hell and let her alone in that place for ten thousand years. Morpheus didn't want to go to hell; because the last time he visited the place, he embarrassed Lucifer, and Lucifer has never been very good in forgiving. But Lucifer was actually happy about Morpheus' visit, it gave him the opportunity to quite Hell. Lucifer kicked out everyone in hell, closed down all the doors and gave the key to Morpheus, hell no longer was the responsibility of Lucifer. Lucifer asked Morpheus to cut his wings, and Morpheus did. [Sandman Vol. 2 #21-28]

Having walked on Earth for a short while Lucifer later settled down in the city of Los Angeles, where he opened his own piano bar called "The Lux". His girlfriend, the lilim Mazikeen, became a waitress, and Lucifer played the piano every night. For a while, this satisfied Lucifer, he no longer ruled hell like God wanted. But it didn't last, Amenadiel of the thrones showed up, Heaven needed someone to do some dirty work, and of course, they decided to hire Lucifer.

Lucifer had to kill the voiceless gods, forgotten deities from a time when men were not advanced enough to imagine anything better than dark clouds as deities. He accomplished his mission and killed the voiceless, and he received his reward, a letter of passage, which allowed Lucifer to leave creation and visit the void. [Sandman Presents: Lucifer #1-#3]

Needing his wings back to navigate in the void, Lucifer visited Izanami's hell, because Remiel (who by God's order became the next ruler of hell and found the wings there) had sold the wings to the Japanese gods. Lucifer could not enter Izanami's realm with his powers and his immortality, so he had to leave that at the door, so to speak. Lucifer entered the house of windowless rooms, outsmarted Izanami's children, and got his wings back.

Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies. He then invited anyone who wanted from God's cosmos to live in his cosmos.

Lucifer currently rules this new cosmos, and he only has one rule. You shall not worship anything, not even Lucifer, or you die.

TOAA The Source is the Crown of creation it sits on top of creation overlooking EVERYTHING. The Phoenix Force is used by The Source for the creation of Gods will , It is known that the Source was the catalyst used for creation of the physical Universe (it was the device used to create the material Universe). Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse that is here now which is separated from the reality that is/was made by TOAA/The Source, though all of the universe's are connected in some way or another.

Originally posted by supremthor
In the beginning there was only God, and God created the Archangels Michael and Samael, also known as Lucifer Morningstar, the bringer of light. Michael used his power to create the first matter, and Lucifer's will shaped it into suns and thus the universe was created. [Lucifer #26]

God preordained everything in the universe, everything was already written, and everything had to follow the script. Lucifer was a wise, caring and passionate angel and ultimately that was what brought about his downfall. The caring Lucifer questioned the Presence's master plan and the fact that he had to follow the plan too, and started a rebellion. Lucifer managed to get one third of the host of heaven under his banner and stormed the Silver City. The fight didn't go to well for Lucifer, his brother Michael had to much power in him, and pushed Lucifer's army to the edges of heaven, and finally, they were banished from Heaven. [Lucifer #11]

Around ten billion years ago after falling for an eternity they would up in the metaphysical realm that would one day become known as Hell. Realizing that it would be impossible to return Lucifer began his reign in Hell and became the undisputed Lord of Evil for ages. Though being the most powerful of demons, he rarely ventured from his throne in Dis. Lucifer ruled hell for ten billion years, but he never liked it, he got bored, so bored he manipulated the demons who lived in hell. He set them one against the other, let them faction, divide and plot.

At the end of a course of events known as "American Gothic", connected to the world-shattering Crisis, a force called the Ultimate Darkness arose and merged with the Divine. This resulted in a civil war in Hell, something which ultimately made Lucifer allow it to be ruled by a Triumvirate consisting of Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, Azazel the Abomination, and himself. This

One day, Dream of the Endless (Morpheus) decided it was time to get his ex-girlfriend out from hell, he was feeling a bit bad about sending her to hell and let her alone in that place for ten thousand years. Morpheus didn't want to go to hell; because the last time he visited the place, he embarrassed Lucifer, and Lucifer has never been very good in forgiving. But Lucifer was actually happy about Morpheus' visit, it gave him the opportunity to quite Hell. Lucifer kicked out everyone in hell, closed down all the doors and gave the key to Morpheus, hell no longer was the responsibility of Lucifer. Lucifer asked Morpheus to cut his wings, and Morpheus did. [Sandman Vol. 2 #21-28]

Having walked on Earth for a short while Lucifer later settled down in the city of Los Angeles, where he opened his own piano bar called "The Lux". His girlfriend, the lilim Mazikeen, became a waitress, and Lucifer played the piano every night. For a while, this satisfied Lucifer, he no longer ruled hell like God wanted. But it didn't last, Amenadiel of the thrones showed up, Heaven needed someone to do some dirty work, and of course, they decided to hire Lucifer.

Lucifer had to kill the voiceless gods, forgotten deities from a time when men were not advanced enough to imagine anything better than dark clouds as deities. He accomplished his mission and killed the voiceless, and he received his reward, a letter of passage, which allowed Lucifer to leave creation and visit the void. [Sandman Presents: Lucifer #1-#3]

Needing his wings back to navigate in the void, Lucifer visited Izanami's hell, because Remiel (who by God's order became the next ruler of hell and found the wings there) had sold the wings to the Japanese gods. Lucifer could not enter Izanami's realm with his powers and his immortality, so he had to leave that at the door, so to speak. Lucifer entered the house of windowless rooms, outsmarted Izanami's children, and got his wings back.

Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies. He then invited anyone who wanted from God's cosmos to live in his cosmos.

Lucifer currently rules this new cosmos, and he only has one rule. You shall not worship anything, not even Lucifer, or you die.

Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
TOAA is not the Source. It has never been revealed. Marvels equivalent of The Source as was made very clear in the crossover is the Phoenix Force.

The DC "god/angel thing" is based on kaballistic principles just like Marvel. The Presence equals Marvels Crown. They are the same thing just a different name is used. Kind of like puma and cougar. You need merely read up on the subject.

Phoenix Force is the creation power of the Crown. The White Crown Phoenix is the avatar of the Crown/Presence who does its bidding, who makes creation and maintains the creation cycle.

Yahweh and TOAA are the same thing for each comic book company

The Presence by its definition and by the principles behind it has a counterpart in Marvel which is the Crown (The source of the Phoenix power)

When the hell was the phoenix force depicted as the Source ?

The White Crown Phoenix(Jean) is an avatar of the Crown a representation of gods will and power within creation. It is this that makes creation and ends it. All according to the will of the Crown.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA The Source is the Crown of creation it sits on top of creation overlooking EVERYTHING. The Phoenix Force is used by The Source for the creation of Gods will , It is known that the Source was the catalyst used for creation of the physical Universe (it was the device used to create the material Universe). Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse that is here now which is separated from the reality that is/was made by TOAA/The Source, though all of the universe's are connected in some way or another.

You seem to be confusing yourself. The Phoenix Force was represented in the crossover as being one and the same as The Source. The White Crown Phoenix which is Jean is the tool here used by the supreme being to make creation. The Force is the power of the Crown which is something greater than either Jean or the brothers.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

I dont get how some one that powerful, can be written about. Surely he can do anything he wants just by Thiking it. E.G. he wants his wings back, he gets them. The same with his brother. He needed to be rescued ?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

I thought u meant the the PF was above the two brothers in terms of power.
i got a ? i m not shocking but can the saint of killers kill the PF?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You seem to be confusing yourself. The Phoenix Force was represented in the crossover as being one and the same as The Source. The White Crown Phoenix which is Jean is the tool here used by the supreme being to make creation. The Force is the power of the Crown which is something greater than either Jean or the brothers.

It is a crossover though !!!!!!!!!!

I just cant see how phoenix can be above Spectre, when they are generally aspects of God. Its like having a competition betweens ones arm and ones ability to speak french. I can understand why you believ its is above the L.T. (although i don't agree) but it cannot be above the Spectre.

Originally posted by yahman
It is a crossover though !!!!!!!!!!

I just cant see how phoenix can be above Spectre, when they are generally aspects of God. Its like having a competition betweens ones arm and ones ability to speak french. I can understand why you believ its is above the L.T. (although i don't agree) but it cannot be above the Spectre.

He is not literally Gods wrath. He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion and as such was exiled from Heaven. As a way of repenting for his sins he offered to represent Gods wrath in creation.

As for your point about the it being a crossover. So what? Sometimes the only way to compare characters is through crossovers and then its just up to us as comic book readers to decide if that representation made sense. Given that the Phoenix Force in Marvel is said to be the power of the Crown then that makes a whole lot of sense.

Originally posted by supremthor
I thought u meant the the PF was above the two brothers in terms of power.
i got a ? i m not shocking but can the saint of killers kill the PF?

You dont often hear me saying this but please make a distinction between Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is the power of the Crown and as such is greater than either Jean or the brothers. Jean as the White Crown Phoenix is an avatar of this power. She represents the Crown within creation and is therefore on equal footing with the brothers. Both sides representing something far greater than themselves.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is not literally Gods wrath. He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion and as such was exiled from Heaven. As a way of repenting for his sins he offered to represent Gods wrath in creation.

Are you sure he is a fallen angel ? I have always been under the impression he is apart of God himself. If so you are right. But if he is actually part of God then he is in the same catergory as the phoenix Force and the the Source, E.g. they are all aspects of the same thing.

'The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit'

Originally posted by yahman
Are you sure he is a fallen angel ? I have always been under the impression he is apart of God himself. If so you are right. But if he is actually part of God then he is in the same catergory as the phoenix Force and the the Source, E.g. they are all aspects of the same thing.

'The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit'

Thats the thing. We as posters are lead to believe a lot of things by fans who can have their way in arguments because of general forum ignorance. Well a few weeks back i decided to rectify the situation. I downloaded the entire Sandman and Lucifer series and read through it. As well as doing some research on Spectre.

Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour

Spectre - Set lose on Earth by the almighty Pressence in 776 BC, the Spectre is the mystical embodiment of God's wrath. When the angel Raphael, who rebelled against Heaven with Lucifer, repented his sins, God transformed him into an avenger that would inflict His wrath on sinful souls. - DC Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour

What youre talking aobut here is.......

After the birth of Jesus, whose mission was to teach people compassion, the Pressence decreed that the spirits of vengeance and forgiveness should not exist on Earth at the same time. The Spectre bode his time in Limbo until Christ's death. Then, forced to bond with mortal souls to manifest his power, the Spectre leaped forth, meting out vengeance down the centuries.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Spectre - Set lose on Earth by the almighty Pressence in 776 BC, the Spectre is the mystical embodiment of God's wrath. When the angel Raphael, who rebelled against Heaven with Lucifer, repented his sins, God transformed him into an avenger that would inflict His wrath on sinful souls. - DC Encyclopedia.

Thank you JR.

It was Spectre that killed the first born of the Egyptians back in Biblical times.

He's a fallen angel. We know that the greatest of the angels are Lucifer and Michael. Theyre always handing him his ass 😉

It has been a misconception that he is an aspect of God. He is a fallen angel who was transformed into the spirit of vengeance as a way of repenting.