Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats the thing. We as posters are lead to believe a lot of things by fans who can have their way in arguments because of general forum ignorance. Well a few weeks back i decided to rectify the situation. I downloaded the entire Sandman and Lucifer series and read through it. As well as doing some research on Spectre.Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour
No need to get all righteous on me. My life is far interesting to have the time to go researching about D.C. version of Biblical events. 😉 But it seems you are right, so i will concede. Have you seen Dogma, you'd Love it.
Originally posted by jrodslam
But he IS the wrath of God nonetheless GS.
He is the wrath of God yes. He was a fallen angel transformed willingly as a way of repenting his sins into the spirit of vengeance, just like Norrin was transformed into the Silver Surfer. But he is not an aspect of God he is a tool of God.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is the wrath of God yes. He was a fallen angel transformed willingly as a way of repenting his sins into the spirit of vengeance, just like Norrin was transformed into the Silver Surfer. But he is not an aspect of God he is a tool of God.
Agree.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theyre always handing him his ass
Are they?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well he would have been given sufficient cosmic and mystical might to ably carry out his role. But he doesnt possess the powers of God like Michael and Lucifer do.
I've just been doing some research and apparently before Pre Crisis he did actually have the power of God. He was below Michael though. E.G. there was an incident where Michael gave him an order and he obeyed. He was seen as an aspect of God, E.G. like the Source.
Originally posted by yahman
I've just been doing some research and apparently before Pre Crisis he did actually have the power of God. He was below Michael though. E.G. there was an incident where Michael gave him an order and he obeyed. He was seen as an aspect of God, E.G. like the Source.
I know, then a funny thing called a retcon happened which means that idea is now ignored like it never existed 😉
Hmm...
I still question that hierarchy a bit. I see Spectre and Tribunal as equals, but I'm not so sure the Angels are above them.
Spectre is the embodiment of DC God's Wrath/Vengence and is commissioned, on occasion, to slay on God's behalf (Read Identity Crisis to get an idea of what I'm talking about). When not commissioned by God he's pretty much a jabroni, but he is an embodiment of the will of God, so when God wills him fully to complete a task, Spectre can fulfill it.
Living Tribunal is the judge, jury, executioner and caretaker of all creation in Marvel until the time comes when TOAA, through Phoenix, ends creation to start it anew. He's the judgement and protection aspect of TOAA, if you will, but he's simply not always necessary because at some points TOAA does not deem it necessary to protect creation (like, for instance, when he chooses to END IT through Phoenix).
My hierarchy would place Yahweh/TOAA/GEB (Polar opposite of God) on top, with their aspects (Creator, Protector, Judge, Vengence) second and the Angels third. If Yahweh comissioned his vengence (Spectre) to kill Lucifer or Michael, I'm pretty sure it could do it, so I don't see them as 'superior' to Spectre, per se. That being said, the purposes of both Michael and Lucifer makes them very unlikely to be destroyed by God, so Spectre more than likely would never be used in that capacity; not that he couldn't be, just that he wouldn't be.
The point that would cause the most conflict is the fact that if Michael and Lucifer were in Marvel, Phoenix (TOAA's creation aspect/power) would technically have been used to create them (like the Source), and LT would be there to judge and discipline them if they got out of line.
Not a popular line of reasoning, but logical if you think about it.
But anyway, I see it as:
1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force"😉, The Presence, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";
I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Ultra Force or the Ultraverse storyline in Marvel, but they had a story arc with the 7th "Ego" (sentience) Gem of the Infinity Gems, which combined all of the gems into the composite being known as "Nemesis", or the Infinity Being. With the other gems taking on a kind of sentience themselves, the being became disrupted, and was broken back down into its separate aspects by the Black Knight, so basically it became a non factor once again. Nemesis is/was the first creation of TOAA in Marvel (so, technically, Phoenix created her) that committed 'suicide', and in doing so birth the current universe. This being is referred to as 'God' in Thanos Quest #2 and also in Ultra Force (circa 1995), so it did exist. It may just be an embodiment of Eternity from the previous universe (Galactus's home universe) that splintered into the 7 gems within the newly formed 616 universe during the Big Crunch (along with Galan/Galactus).
If so, it was far more powerful than any abstract we know of in the current 616, so it should make the list just behind the top dogs and above the abstracts.
* - Spectre is the embodiment of God's Wrath. If God wants someone pwn3d, they are pwn3d. Nothing should be above God's wrath, logically. Some things may simply not incur God's wrath, however.
** - Tribunal and Phoenix are somewhat symbiotic. Tribunal isn't necessary unless Phoenix is fulfilling it's purpose as creator/destroyer. Tribunal can't protect unless Phoenix creates, and when Phoenix destroys, Tribunal's protection, logically, isn't warranted.
But anyway, that's my take.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...I still question that hierarchy a bit. I see Spectre and Tribunal as equals, but I'm not so sure the Angels are above them.
Spectre is the embodiment of DC God's Wrath/Vengence and is commissioned, on occasion, to slay on God's behalf (Read Identity Crisis to get an idea of what I'm talking about). When not commissioned by God he's pretty much a jabroni, but he is an embodiment of the will of God, so when God wills him fully to complete a task, Spectre can fulfill it.
Living Tribunal is the judge, jury, executioner and caretaker of all creation in Marvel until the time comes when TOAA, through Phoenix, ends creation to start it anew. He's the judgement and protection aspect of TOAA, if you will, but he's simply not always necessary because at some points TOAA does not deem it necessary to protect creation (like, for instance, when he chooses to END IT through Phoenix).
My hierarchy would place Yahweh/TOAA/GEB (Polar opposite of God) on top, with their aspects (Creator, Protector, Judge, Vengence) second and the Angels third. If Yahweh comissioned his vengence (Spectre) to kill Lucifer or Michael, I'm pretty sure it could do it, so I don't see them as 'superior' to Spectre, per se. That being said, the purposes of both Michael and Lucifer makes them very unlikely to be destroyed by God, so Spectre more than likely would never be used in that capacity; not that he couldn't be, just that he wouldn't be.
The point that would cause the most conflict is the fact that if Michael and Lucifer were in Marvel, Phoenix (TOAA's creation aspect/power) would technically have been used to create them (like the Source), and LT would be there to judge and discipline them if they got out of line.
Not a popular line of reasoning, but logical if you think about it.
But anyway, I see it as:
1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force"😉, The Presence, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Ultra Force or the Ultraverse storyline in Marvel, but they had a story arc with the 7th "Ego" (sentience) Gem of the Infinity Gems, which combined all of the gems into the composite being known as "Nemesis", or the Infinity Being. With the other gems taking on a kind of sentience themselves, the being became disrupted, and was broken back down into its separate aspects by the Black Knight, so basically it became a non factor once again. Nemesis is/was the first creation of TOAA in Marvel (so, technically, Phoenix created her) that committed 'suicide', and in doing so birth the current universe. This being is referred to as 'God' in Thanos Quest #2 and also in Ultra Force (circa 1995), so it did exist. It may just be an embodiment of Eternity from the previous universe (Galactus's home universe) that splintered into the 7 gems within the newly formed 616 universe during the Big Crunch (along with Galan/Galactus).
If so, it was far more powerful than any abstract we know of in the current 616, so it should make the list just behind the top dogs and above the abstracts.
* - Spectre is the embodiment of God's Wrath. If God wants someone pwn3d, they are pwn3d. Nothing should be above God's wrath, logically. Some things may simply not incur God's wrath, however.
** - Tribunal and Phoenix are somewhat symbiotic. Tribunal isn't necessary unless Phoenix is fulfilling it's purpose as creator/destroyer. Tribunal can't protect unless Phoenix creates, and when Phoenix destroys, Tribunal's protection, logically, isn't warranted.But anyway, that's my take.
Thats not bad ILL. You've changed your tune slightly from that last Phoenix thread. It doesnt diverge at all really from what me and Xplosive were saying so ive got no issue with it. Good post. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know, then a funny thing called a retcon happened which means that idea is now ignored like it never existed 😉
Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.
Originally posted by yahman
Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.
Sorry about the terrible english, i was trying to have a conversation with someone at the time. 😮
Oh yeh the guy before G.S. just posted something very interesting. Conudrum is that Phoenix created Spectre, but with God's will Spectre would be able to destroy the phoenix. It seems to me as if they are pretty even.
Originally posted by yahman
Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.
If you'd actually read the Crisis you'd know that Spectre fought Anti-M and got punked. Also i wasnt referring to that retcon, but instead a spectre specific one which made him a fallen angel.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not bad ILL. You've changed your tune slightly from that last Phoenix thread. It doesnt diverge at all really from what me and Xplosive were saying so ive got no issue with it. Good post. 😉
Yeah, I figured you'd like that.
But that's because I hadn't posted my catch 22 post yet, GS. 😂
LT, Spectre, and Jean are all one with aspects of 'God':
LT* = TOAA's Protection and Judgement of creation (embodiment of)
Spectre - God's Wrath (embodiment of)
Jean* - TOAA's Power to create and destroy (Jean is genetically one with it, so basically an embodiment of)
In a sense, they are, technically, equal to the Source/Phoenix Force in terms of power, but not in terms of purpose (and in the case of Spectre, use, since he's empowered by decree).
LT and Jean can freely bring to bear the full force of their power supply if and when it's necessary, which happens to be one in the same:
TOAA.
They are simply bound by their role and purpose, but they have infinite power.
Spectre's power is granted by the will of God, so he doesn't have the free choice to be omnipotent when he himself would deem it necessary, but he certainly has the capacity.
So, technically, the "power" hierarchy should be:
1a)Yahweh, TOAA, GOD Evil Beast
1b) Source and Phoenix Force/Jean (since they are one in the same), LT (TOAA's Protection and Judgement), Spectre (God's Vengence), The Word, The Presence.
All these beings above are aspects of the same being, TOAA/Yahweh, just with different names, roles, and purposes. They all have the same power from the same source. Even the Great Evil Beast is simply God's Dark Nature and opposite if you think about it logically. How is God's own will to destroy more powerful than God's own will to protect and/or God's own will to create and/or God's own will for vengence and/or God's own capacity for good and/or God's own capacity for evil?
How can God's will be more powerful than God's will?
That's a paradox.
Only difference between them all is purpose in the grand scheme, and some purposes supercede others. Other than that, they are all equals in terms of 'power'.
Then you'd have:
2)Lucifer and Michael, individually (since neither alone can wield the full will of Yahweh).
and
3)Nemesis aka the Infinity Being.
Now, before DC fans jump on my back for putting Spectre above Lucifer and Michael, really think about the premise of the character:
Spectre is God's Wrath. God's will for vengence personified (but not always fully empowered).
Lucifer and Michael are high ranking archangels that God created to work for him.
Can a creation of God be more powerful than God's own will?
Answer that.
But anyway, that's my logical, non politically correct, "stir the pot" take GS.
Hope you enjoy. 😄
Originally posted by yahman
Sorry about the terrible english, i was trying to have a conversation with someone at the time. 😮Oh yeh the guy before G.S. just posted something very interesting. Conudrum is that Phoenix created Spectre, but with God's will Spectre would be able to destroy the phoenix. It seems to me as if they are pretty even.
Theres a difference between The Phoenix Force(The Source) and the avatar (Jean) Spectre isnt equal to Jean or the brothers in the scheme of things. He is not as powerful. However if God wanted to take out the brothers or Jean he could empower him to do so. However in the normal scheme of things he doesnt have the power to do so and God as ILL rightly said wouldnt want to destroy Jean or the brothers because of their roles in creation. For goodness sake TOAA could empower Aunt May to take out Jean or the brothers but thats irrelevant. In the scheme of things both they and Jean while peers of the Spectre are certainly more powerful.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you'd actually read the Crisis you'd know that Spectre fought Anti-M and got punked. Also i wasnt referring to that retcon, but instead a spectre specific one which made him a fallen angel.
Well now you've found out im a fraud, Im going to jump off a bridge somewhere. 🙁
In DC there is the Light and the Darkness - See Alan Moores swamp thing which seem to be yet another DC version of reality, could be the ultimate expression of the multiverse. Both live with each other in harmony. Yin and Yang. Both have aspects of each other inside them e.g. light has shadow. This concept need no rebirth as it is a constant beyond the birth, death and creation of universes.
DCU is much more complex, its abstracts like the Endless are much more sdophisticated and again beyond a single universe. Comparing the ideas of DCU with Marvel U on this are impossible. Phoenix is below all these concepts. because Phoenix (the force) has shown "desire" to know flesh. "Delerium" at various times, etc. The fact we have attributed light and dark to its avaters shows the force is molded by these concepts. In truth Phoenix is a mainstream childs character, like the Spectre and well below many DC abstracts by its very nature, which is molded by these abstract ideas.
Game Over.
Keep the faith🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘