Ok now let me get started, Yahweh created everything from nothing, it was God's Will (TOAA/The Source) and Gods Holy Presence (The Holy Spirit/The Presence) that made it possible for everything to live, which made it possible for God to be made into flesh so he could live with his creations.
The Living Tribunal was created shortly after the reality was here before the DC/Marvel Multiverses, his role like The Phoenix Forces role is to make sure Gods Will is done. The Living Tribunal works for TOAA/The Source who is physicaly above everything in the universe's, TOAA has never been seen in Marvel but that does not mean The Source and it are not the same because they are. The Phoenix Force is an abstract of TOAA/The Sources Will helping it to make sure the universe is working correctly. TOAA and The Source is Yahweh's/Gods Will. The Source is the Crown of Creation, The Crown means being above which is what The Source/TOAA is. TOAA/The Source is a gold color being, the beings that represent him are also a goldish color, like how The Living Tribunal is gold or The Phoenix Force. It has recently developed a living incarnation in Takion which is also gold.
The Presence is The Holy Spirit, the Presence proceeds from Yahweh, anything in Gods Holy Presence that is a lie he will know about because The Presence searches all things and looks into everyones head even Gods mind it looks in. NOTHING is above Yahweh/The Presence, when someone is talking to The Presence they are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The can somewhat also be said for The Source as well but he is not in The Silver City because that is not his purpose.
from Gods Will and through The Presence's Voice (The Voice) he speaks The Word aka The Logos/Jesus Christ, Gods manifestation in the physical universe. all of these beings are God, you can NOT bring any of them down or lower how they rate.. The First of the Fallen was kicked out of The Silver City by The Presence for questioning Gods choice to create beings of free will. Lucifer Morningstar was kicked out of the Silver City for wanted to join the Holy Trinity, he asked if The Word could talk with Yahweh/The Presence then he could also and help God with his plans, this pissed off the angels in Heaven and they all said he was trying to put himself next to The Word and be like the most High in the Silver City. When the war was over in Heaven The Spectre (one of Gods angels) fell to hell, he went back to The Silver City to ask God if he could return, he told the Archangel Michael who would not allow him to come into The Silver City he could not stand being away from God's Holy Presence, after this he was allowed to talk with The Presence who recreated him into a Spirit and made him God's new Wrath, The Spectre Force is what the Divine power is called and The Presence renamed him The Spectre (his name before that was Aztar) his mind was whipped clean so he doesn't know anything that happened and can function perfectly like how Gods Wraths should.
The Great Evil Beast was created so everyone that wanted to live could live if anyone would not choose to live by how God/Yahweh planned it is then used so they would die and never return (because God let them choose there own destiny). The Great Beast has joined with the Divine, this caused a war in Hell and Lucifer then ruled it with 2 other beings. now that Lucifer is out of Hell the new ruler is Christopher Rudd. The First of the Fallen has become a major player in Hells hierarchy since Lucifer has left as well.
This is how the ranking should BE:
1. Yahweh/The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/The Beast
2. The Voice/The Word
3. Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
4. The Spectre full powered/The Living Tribunal
the reason Lucifer and Michael are above The Spectre and The Living Tribunal is because Spectre has lost i believe 2 times vs Michael, the 2nd time The Spectre was very poweful and Michael still won (even though it was a tough fight) The Spectre was amazed at how much punishment and power Michael had, he asked Michael how he was able to win, Michael told him "everything is connected with The Presence in 1 form or another its just how much Will POWER you have to win". The Spectre didn't even try to fight Lucifer when he was moving the moon once, The Spectre asked him wtf he was doing and Lucifer told him it was NONE of his business and to go away, The Spectre then hung his head down and disappeared, Lucifer is way to smart for Spectre. Thanos had THOTU which made him have Gods power in the Marvel Universe and The Living Tribunal along with Eternity both lost. Lucifer and Michael would win vs Thanos with THOTU if they didn't mess around.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
In DC there is the Light and the Darkness - See Alan Moores swamp thing which seem to be yet another DC version of reality, could be the ultimate expression of the multiverse. Both live with each other in harmony. Yin and Yang. Both have aspects of each other inside them e.g. light has shadow. This concept need no rebirth as it is a constant beyond the birth, death and creation of universes.DCU is much more complex, its abstracts like the Endless are much more sdophisticated and again beyond a single universe. Comparing the ideas of DCU with Marvel U on this are impossible. Phoenix is below all these concepts. because Phoenix (the force) has shown "desire" to know flesh. "Delerium" at various times, etc. The fact we have attributed light and dark to its avaters shows the force is molded by these concepts. In truth Phoenix is a mainstream childs character, like the Spectre and well below many DC abstracts by its very nature, which is molded by these abstract ideas.
Game Over.
The force has shown no such things because it cant. It isnt an entity it is literally the the power of the Crown. Please embrace the concept of the retcon
Keep the faith🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
The force has shown no such things because it cant. It isnt an entity it is literally the the power of the Crown. Please embrace the concept of retcon 🙄
The avatars the tools used by Crown. The Crown decided a human touch was desirable for its creation work as stated by Jean in Xmen The End so your post while nicely worded doesnt change anything. The game is far from over.
Originally posted by kevdude
Ok now let me get started, Yahweh created everything from nothing, it was God's Will (TOAA/The Source) and Gods Holy Presence (The Holy Spirit/The Presence) that made it possible for everything to live, which made it possible for God to be made into flesh so he could live with his creations.The Living Tribunal was created shortly after the reality was here before the DC/Marvel Multiverses, his role like The Phoenix Forces role is to make sure Gods Will is done. The Living Tribunal works for TOAA/The Source who is physicaly above everything in the universe's, TOAA has never been seen in Marvel but that does not mean The Source and it are not the same because they are. The Phoenix Force is an abstract of TOAA/The Sources Will helping it to make sure the universe is working correctly. TOAA and The Source is Yahweh's/Gods Will. The Source is the Crown of Creation, The Crown means being above which is what The Source/TOAA is. TOAA/The Source is a gold color being, the beings that represent him are also a goldish color, like how The Living Tribunal is gold or The Phoenix Force. It has recently developed a living incarnation in Takion which is also gold.
The Presence is The Holy Spirit, the Presence proceeds from Yahweh, anything in Gods Holy Presence that is a lie he will know about because The Presence searches all things and looks into everyones head even Gods mind it looks in. NOTHING is above Yahweh/The Presence, when someone is talking to The Presence they are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The can somewhat also be said for The Source as well but he is not in The Silver City because that is not his purpose.
from Gods Will and through The Presence's Voice (The Voice) he speaks The Word aka The Logos/Jesus Christ, Gods manifestation in the physical universe. all of these beings are God, you can NOT bring any of them down or lower how they rate.. The First of the Fallen was kicked out of The Silver City by The Presence for questioning Gods choice to create beings of free will. Lucifer Morningstar was kicked out of the Silver City for wanted to join the Holy Trinity, he asked if The Word could talk with Yahweh/The Presence then he could also and help God with his plans, this pissed off the angels in Heaven and they all said he was trying to put himself next to The Word and be like the most High in the Silver City. When the war was over in Heaven The Spectre (one of Gods angels) fell to hell, he went back to The Silver City to ask God if he could return, he told the Archangel Michael who would not allow him to come into The Silver City he could not stand being away from God's Holy Presence, after this he was allowed to talk with The Presence who recreated him into a Spirit and made him God's new Wrath, The Spectre Force is what the Divine power is called and The Presence renamed him The Spectre (his name before that was Aztar) his mind was whipped clean so he doesn't know anything that happened and can function perfectly like how Gods Wraths should.
The Great Evil Beast was created so everyone that wanted to live could live if anyone would not choose to live by how God/Yahweh planned it is then used so they would die and never return (because God let them choose there own destiny). The Great Beast has joined with the Divine, this caused a war in Hell and Lucifer then ruled it with 2 other beings. now that Lucifer is out of Hell the new ruler is Christopher Rudd. The First of the Fallen has become a major player in Hells hierarchy since Lucifer has left as well.
This is how the ranking should BE:
1. Yahweh/The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/The Beast
2. The Voice/The Word
3. Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
4. The Spectre full powered/The Living Tribunalthe reason Lucifer and Michael are above The Spectre and The Living Tribunal is because Spectre has lost i believe 2 times vs Michael, the 2nd time The Spectre was very poweful and Michael still won (even though it was a tough fight) The Spectre was amazed at how much punishment and power Michael had, he asked Michael how he was able to win, Michael told him "everything is connected with The Presence in 1 form or another its just how much Will POWER you have to win". The Spectre didn't even try to fight Lucifer when he was moving the moon once, The Spectre asked him wtf he was doing and Lucifer told him it was NONE of his business and to go away, The Spectre then hung his head down and disappeared, Lucifer is way to smart for Spectre. Thanos had THOTU which made him have Gods power in the Marvel Universe and The Living Tribunal along with Eternity both lost. Lucifer and Michael would win vs Thanos with THOTU if they didn't mess around.
TOAA is Marvels supreme being. Whether or not it is supreme in a Yahweh like fashion or is just an aspect of something higher is unknown because little has been revealed. However you have no evidence whatsoever that TOAA is Marvels equivalent of The Source and if anything that contradicts with many things previously established. You're making you're mind up based on an insufficient grasp on the kaballah principles so please let me tell you that you are very wrong.
Crown and Presence are Kaballah terms meaning the same thing. Crown also refers to sitting above creation but you are mistakenly taking that as the be and end all of it and just because the Source is apparently outside of creation you're lumping it and Marvels Crown as the same. That is wrong. Crown and Presence are the same thing. They are both the highest emanation points for the essence of the suprme being. That is what the terms mean. They are both not the be all and end all of the supreme being but are instead sephirah. Emanation points for the supreme being the unimanifest god to pour his essence into creation. The Crown represents the closest creation and any being can get to union with the supreme being. As such all of the other sephirah (aspects) are connected/represented by the crown as they are after just different facets of the the supreme being with the Crown being the closest union to the complete supreme being of Marvel. TOAA presumably.
The creation aspect of marvel, (The Phoenix Force) the power of the Crown is the equivalent of DC's Source as has clearly been depicted in the past. They both sit apart from creation ( The force resides in the Crown) and they both are the power used to make creation so this link that was made between them in the comics makes sense. The Phoenix Force is the Source in crossover terms.
Although they are bound together sometimes you need to make a distinction between Jean (The White Crown Phoenix) and the Phoenix Force. The phoenix force is the aspect, the creation power that Jean taps into. Jean is the tool used by the Crown to carry out Gods will. Ok? The Force is not an entity but the power of the Crown, the power that keeps creation together and continually going.
Illadelph was spot on I.M.O:
1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force"😉, The Presence/The Crown, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force"😉, The Presence/The Crown, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";
I can't give GEB as equal to Yahwh, I mean God defeted and threw GEB down and put him to sleep.
Originally posted by Xplosive
I can't give GEB as equal to Yahwh, I mean God defeted and threw GEB down and put him to sleep.
Its a compromise so we can stop debating lol. I still lean towards my hierarchy but to end this cycle i wont argue against Illadelphs whic doesnt diverge too much from the one me and you believe to be right.
Its a compromise so we can stop debating lol. I still lean towards my hierarchy but to end this cycle i wont argue against Illadelphs whic doesnt diverge too much from the one me and you believe to be right.
😂
Isn't the Great Evil Beast the Dark that balances Yahweh's light? I thought Yahweh expelled the GEB from himself. It's like a manifestation of Yahweh's dark side of consciousness that he expelled from his being, right? Did I miss a retcon?
And Spectre's powers work in the same way that He-Man's do, being that he is given a degree of power necessitated by the task at hand. I wouldn't put him below Michael or Lucifer for the simple fact that at a moments notice Spectre could become the instrument of their destruction should Yahweh will it.
I wouldn't put TGEB next to Yahweh himself, YHWH can't really be explained can he??? he is The Father, his ways are not our ways, we can't begin to understand what he is because he is to far above and powerful for anyone to understand, he simply just IS. without him sitting on the Throne everything is falling apart, even Lucifer's own universe is falling apart because God is gone.
About The Source/TOAA, you yourself have said The Phoenix Force is 1 of TOAA's abstracts, if TPF went directly into The Source, that means they are telling everyone, HEY THIS IS TOAA without saying it out loud. Its common sense. My ranking should be right . The White Crown Phoenix does seem to differ from the regular Phoenix Force, and I would agree then that the White Crown Phoenix is used by The Presence..
Originally posted by kevdude
About The Source/TOAA, you yourself have said The Phoenix Force is 1 of TOAA's abstracts, if TPF went directly into The Source, that means they are telling everyone, HEY THIS IS TOAA without saying it out loud. Its common sense. My ranking should be right . The White Crown Phoenix does seem to differ from the regular Phoenix Force, and I would agree then that the White Crown Phoenix is used by The Presence..
No i said the Phoenix Force is one of the supreme beings ASPECTS. Just like Yahwehs aspects are the Presence, the Source, the Word etc. The Phoenix Force is the equivalent of the Source in Marvel. Just one of the parts that make up the whole that is TOAA. The crossover was attempting to show the the Phoenix Force and the Source as one and the same. That does not mean that the Source equals TOAA because the Phoenix Force isnt the sum total of Marvels supreme being.
Originally posted by illadelph12
😂Isn't the Great Evil Beast the Dark that balances Yahweh's light? I thought Yahweh expelled the GEB from himself. It's like a manifestation of Yahweh's dark side of consciousness that he expelled from his being, right? Did I miss a retcon?
And Spectre's powers work in the same way that He-Man's do, being that he is given a degree of power necessitated by the task at hand. I wouldn't put him below Michael or Lucifer for the simple fact that at a moments notice Spectre could become the instrument of their destruction should Yahweh will it.
Yahweh is not really the Godhead in DC 🙂 unlike Marvel it doesn't retconn in the same way galactic storm believes Marvel does (I am not sure Marvel does it GS's way either). "Primordial Light and Dark, unknowing yet sentient" maybe DC's creation, more primitive, primordial and simpler according to Swampthing.
The Presence is what proceeds from Yahweh, it is his Holy Presence, I believe it is just to hard to look through The Presence to actually see Yahweh, but neverless he is still there. The Presence is supreme he is number 1, without Yahweh/"The Presence" the whole universe would fall apart (which is happening in DC).
Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence is what proceeds from Yahweh, it is his Holy Presence, I believe it is just to hard to look through The Presence to actually see Yahweh, but neverless he is still there. The Presence is supreme he is number 1, without Yahweh/"The Presence" the whole universe would fall apart (which is happening in DC).
True. Presence/Crown is the closest creation can get to the unknowable, unmanifest God. It is the strongest emanation of gods essence.