Originally posted by Jury
I didn't remember I was saying God created everything together with the angels.I am saying the Father ALONE, the only true God, created everything.
Not quite sure how coherent this is. Though like I mentioned earlier, it says let us create man in our likeness. Now you are saying it was the father alone, well I guess he was talking to NOBODY then. How interesting.
Originally posted by clickclick
No, your response is that he was speaking as God when he said that to the men. They were asking Jesus about himself, not God the father.
🙂
Again I said: Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. I am confident of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".
On the other hand,
The people said: "You are not fifty years old, yet you are saying you saw Abraham?"
Jesus replied: "Verily, verily,... before Abraham was born, I AM."
Now, am I saying Jesus spoke to these men as God? Hello? 🙄
Originally posted by clickclick😂
I said? Well more accurately speaking, the bible says.
Since you yourself posted that... and you yourself the one whom I am chatting with... the material you are posting here are yours.
That's what I mean of "You are saying".
🙂
Originally posted by clickclick
Not quite sure how coherent this is. Though like I mentioned earlier, it says let us create man in our likeness. Now you are saying it was the father alone, well I guess he was talking to NOBODY then. How interesting.
A teacher is demonstrating something with relevant to his lesson to his class. His students are tentaively listening to his demonstration. Shall we say, he is demonstrating on how to cover a book with a plastic cellophane.
While, demonstrating... he can utter the words like: "After we put a covering on this part we can have it fix with a Scotch tape. So, let us put a tape over here."
Now, who is demonstrating alone? When he is alone, why he uses the pronouns "we" and "us"?
Now, as to the creation. It is the Father alone who created the world. The angels were there... because He created these heavenly creations before He created the man. So they were there, but it is not necessary that they are joining the Father in creating the world.
Again, as to the Bible passage... it didn't mention that God created the world with the Son, and with the Holy Spirit.
🙂
Am I saying Jesus was speaking as God when He said that to the men? Are you sure? When and where did I posted that?Again I said: Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. I am confident of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".
On the other hand,
The people said: "You are not fifty years old, yet you are saying you saw Abraham?"
Jesus replied: "Verily, verily,... before Abraham was born, I AM."Now, am I saying Jesus spoke to these men as God? Hello?
I did not say that you claimed Jesus spoke to Abraham, though you keep sayingt hat. I said that you claimed Jesus was speaking as God. That was your response to how/why he was saying what he was. Jesus said before Abraham I was. He couldnt have existed before abraham if he was just a plan. A plan is not a life nor is it He.
Originally posted by Jury
Imagine, inside a classroom.A teacher is demonstrating something with relevant to his lesson to his class. His students are tentaively listening to his demonstration. Shall we say, he is demonstrating on how to cover a book with a plastic cellophane.
While, demonstrating... he can utter the words like: "After we put a covering on this part we can have it fix with a Scotch tape. So, let us put a tape over here."
Now, who is demonstrating alone? When he is alone, why he uses the pronouns "we" and "us"?
Now, as to the creation. It is the Father alone who created the world. The angels were there... because He created these heavenly creations before He created the man. So they were there, but it is not necessary that they are joining the Father in creating the world.
Again, as to the Bible passage... it didn't mention that God created the world with the Son, and with the Holy Spirit.
🙂
No, the bible mentions numerous times that the word created the world. The Son.
If the teacher is speaking in that way, it is likely the students are involved. We is not really appropriate when you are the only one involved. Secondly, who said anything about this being a demonstration? There is no sensible reason that he would speak in the we form aswell as indicating some kind of equality (in our likeness) if he is talking to the angels. Which by the way, is not said and merely your opinion. Unbiblical at that.
Does this mean you are changing your stance though to it only being the Father who created the world?
Originally posted by clickclick
I did not say that you claimed Jesus spoke to Abraham, though you keep sayingt hat. I said that you claimed Jesus was speaking as God. That was your response to how/why he was saying what he was. Jesus said before Abraham I was. He couldnt have existed before abraham if he was just a plan. A plan is not a life nor is it He.
Analyze how the content of my post goes.
This was your post:
Jesus still says that he saw abraham. Before abraham he was. It doesnt make sense if he saw abraham because he was "a plan" before abraham.
Originally posted by clickclick
When Jesus said before Abraham, I am. How does it help if hes speaking as God when the question is directed to him?
Originally posted by Jury
Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. Take note of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".
Originally posted by clickclickThat's why I clarified it again:
No, your response is that he was speaking as God when he said that to the men. They were asking Jesus about himself, not God the father.
Originally posted by Jury
Am I saying Jesus was speaking as God when He said that to the men? Are you sure? When and where did I posted that?Again I said: Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. I am confident of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".
On the other hand,
The people said: "You are not fifty years old, yet you are saying you saw Abraham?"
Jesus replied: "Verily, verily,... before Abraham was born, I AM."Now, am I saying Jesus spoke to these men as God? Hello?
I did not say that you claimed Jesus spoke to Abraham, though you keep sayingt hat. I said that you claimed Jesus was speaking as God. That was your response to how/why he was saying what he was. Jesus said before Abraham I was. He couldnt have existed before abraham if he was just a plan. A plan is not a life nor is it He.I'll explain it again:
You are saying that I am claiming that Jesus was speaking AS GOD when He spoke to the people regarding Abraham. Here:
Originally posted by clickclickThat's why I asked: Am I saying Jesus was speaking as God when He said that to the men? Are you sure? When and where did I posted that?
No, your response is that he was speaking as God when he said that to the men. They were asking Jesus about himself, not God the father.
I followed my post with this: Again I said: Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. I am confident of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM". I am not saying that you said I claim that Jesus spoke to Abraham. Remember that it was you who have this notion that Jesus Himself saw Abraham. The reason why I posted that is to emphasize that it was my contention. Knowing that I have that contention, why do you think I would say that Jesus spoke AS GOD to the people during that time? Yet, as of your latest response:
I said that you claimed Jesus was speaking as God. That was your response to how/why he was saying what he was. Jesus said before Abraham I was. He couldnt have existed before abraham if he was just a plan. A plan is not a life nor is it He.
Originally posted by clickclick
No, the bible mentions numerous times that the word created the world. The Son.If the teacher is speaking in that way, it is likely the students are involved. We is not really appropriate when you are the only one involved. Secondly, who said anything about this being a demonstration? There is no sensible reason that he would speak in the we form aswell as indicating some kind of equality (in our likeness) if he is talking to the angels. Which by the way, is not said and merely your opinion. Unbiblical at that.
Does this mean you are changing your stance though to it only being the Father who created the world?
Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?...
Malachi 2:10, NIV
The demonstration is just an example... to emphasize the usage of the pronouns for plural subjects or objects.
The Bible said "Let US create man according to OUR image."
Yes. it never mentioned of the angels... as well as the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
🙂
The Word is about Jesus Christ. This Word was with God in the beginning. This Word was God. But, as I am saying, it is not the same to say that the Word is Jesus Christ Himself. It is not the same to say that Jesus Christ Himself was with God in the beginning. It is not the same to say that Jesus Christ was God.
It would be impossible that the Word was Jesus Christ Himself. It would appear that if the Word was Jesus Christ Himself before He became a man, this Jesus Christ was God in its very being. Remember that the Word was with God. Meaning - distinct from God. The God, and the Word are two distinct entities. If the Word is Jesus Christ Himself in its very being - a separate person - corporeal that is, Jesus as God will be with [another] God. Ends up with two Gods - a God with God. But it is not what the Bible is saying.
The Word is simply the Word - not Jesus Christ Himself. The Word was about Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Word... and therefore later called the Word of God.
The pronouns "he" and "him" were applied to this Word when John wrote his gospel. John already had the notion that Jesus Christ was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world.. because in the Old Testament, God already mentioned of the coming of the Messiah - the Christ. Not only that, Jesus was promised by God as the Seed of Abraham. Jesus couldn't have been "foreknown" or "foreordained" or "chosen before" when He was already existing. By this term alone - proginisko - it is understood that Jesus Christ seemed to be existing because God already had glorified Him and promised Him ever since. In this same reason also why Jesus Christ was considered as the "firstborn of all creation". Also the reason why He said "before Abraham was born, I am."
🙂
The Word Part 1
This is my proposition regarding the Word
It refers to Christ.. yet it was a plan, a thought, a concept, or an intellectual emanation... and no physical or corporeal existence then.
Most probably, everytime I ask those who profess to be Christians about their belief as to the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ, or if we are to ask plainly: "Is Jesus Christ God or not?" What would they say?
"...our belief in the deity of Christ is the positive declaration in the magnificent passage that opens John's gospel:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). "Notice that last phrase, ..and the Word was God.' Now, the term 'word' in this verse refers unmistakably to the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, we read in John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." The conclusion that the Word is Jesus Christ Himself is inescapable. And verse I says that 'the word was God.' The Lord Jesus is eternally existent as God always was, is, and ever shall be." [De Haan, pp. 20-21]
They are quick to answer, that Jesus Christ is God. They would even point out, that the basis for their belief is the Bible. The most popular verse they use in their effort to assert Christ's alleged deity is John 1:1.
It is my belief, however, which is based on the Bible that our Lord Jesus Christ is man in state of being and He did not have any corporeal existence prior to His birth. Also, that there is no biblical verse which proves that Christ is God. My belief rests solely on the biblical fact that there is but one God who is the Father. This is the foundation of our faith. If there is any verse which people claim proves the alleged deity of Christ, this verse has been wrongly interpreted by these people.
People may be wondering now who to believe. How would one know which explanation of a biblical verse is the correct one? The Apostle Paul gives us the guidelines for determining the truth, in I Corinthians 2:13 —
"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.". (NEB)
The Apostles tell us that we must express spiritual truths in spiritual words or we must let the words of God explain the words of God. If an explanation of a biblical verse is needed, we must go to the Bible and let it explain itself. The word of God does not contradict the word of God. If it is said that the Bible contradicts itself, it would amount to saying that God contradicts Himself, which is absurd and impossible. So if an explanation of a particular verse contradicts other parts of the Scriptures, such is not the correct explanation of the verse. The proper explanation of any verse is that which does not contradict any other part of the Scriptures.
People who call themselves Christians believe and teach that John 1:1 refers to Christ's pre-existence as God. They say this because the Word, who they believe is Christ Himself, existed with God in the beginning, but what would be the result if one would accept this line of reasoning?
It would create a great contradiction in the Bible. There would now appear to be two gods. This can be seen in the portion of the verse which says, "and the Word was with God." If they insist that the "Word" means that Christ is already existing since the very beginning as God, then He is God with another God. The preposition "with" used in the verse indicates that one is with someone else. In this case a God with God. Two distinct and separate entities. But there might be some who would say that this is just an opinion. But even Protestant theologians agree to this like Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie, professor of Systematic Theology, Dallas Theological Seminary. In the annotations of his Ryrie Study Bible he had this to say about the phrase in John 1:1 "and the word was with God."
"In this verse the Word (Christ) is said to be with God (that is, in communion with and yet distinct from God)." (p. 1599)
Dr Ryrie says that the Word is distinct from God. How does Dr. Ryrie use the word distinct, and does he mean that the Word is the same as God? In his introductory statement he stated how people may be able to understand the meaning of words being employed in the Ryrie Study Bible.
"Some are explained in the notes of this study Bible. Others you may have to look up in an English dictionary, which is one of the most important tools to have within reach when you study the Bible." (p. vi)
Using Dr. Ryrie's advise let us turn to an English dictionary to find out what he means when he says, "the Word is distinct from God."
distinct ...distinguished as not being the same, not identical; separate ...different in nature or quality.
Therefore, when Dr. Ryrie says, that the Word is distinct from God he is saying the Word is not the same, but rather separate or different from God. Based on the understanding of those who assert the alleged deity of Christ it would now appear that the Bible is teaching that there are two gods. In addition to the verse itself there would also result a great contradiction in other parts of the Bible.
In fact in the Gospel of John, Christ's prayer can be read, thus:
"These things Jesus spoke: and lifting up His eves lo heaven, He said,
Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son that the Son may glorify Thee...
And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee,
the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent:
John 17:1, 3, NASB
According to our Lord Jesus Christ there is only one true God — the Father. Christ did not say, "that they may know Us," or, "that they may know You and Me as the only true God." He excluded Himself from the statement, "the only true God," as He pointed to the Father in heaven as the only true God.
Hence, the understanding of people who take John 1:1 to mean that Christ preexisted in the beginning with God as god is against the Holy Scriptures. It follows that theirs is an improper understanding of the verse.
THE BIBLICAL MEANING
People may now ask, "If John 1:1 does not express the pre-existence of Christ as God already with the Father, what then does the verse mean?" In order to find out the biblical meaning of the verse in question, it must first be understood that there are three elements in John 1:1, namely:
1. In the beginning was the Word
2. And the Word was with God
3. And the Word was God
Let us take a look at this verse piece by piece to come to the true understanding of John 1:1. What is the meaning of the first segment, "In the beginning was the Word?" Does it imply that Christ is God who had substance or state of being with God? The answer can be found in Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians,
"This was according to the eternal purpose
which he realized in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Ephesians 3:11, RSV
There is an eternal purpose or plan which was realized in Jesus Christ. Since when did God conceive of this plan? Again the Apostle Paul further explains:
"And to make all men see what is the plan
of the mystery hidden for ages in God
who created all things;"
Ephesians 3:9
Paul tells us that the purpose or plan of God was conceived and was hidden for ages. In the same manner, John is teaching that in the beginning, ages ago, God already planned that there would be a Christ. When was this ages ago? This is further revealed by the Apostle Peter:
"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world,
but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."
I Peter 1:20
When John wrote, "In the beginning was the Word," he is teaching that in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, God has already foreknown or planned that there shall be a Christ.
There is an argument of some people who say even though Christ was planned before the foundation of the world, He was existing with God in the beginning in His present state of being. If this were the case and if people would continue to hold to such a line of reasoning what would be the disastrous effect in clinging to such a belief?
In Ephesians 1:4, according to the Apostle Paul who else were chosen or planned before the foundation of the world?
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and blameless before Him, in love."
Ephesians 1:4
Man was also chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. Is it correct to infer that all men had pre-existence in state of being? This is not what the apostle is teaching. It can be read quite clearly in the book of Genesis that God created the world before he created man. Paul is teaching that man was chosen or planned to be in Christ. Just as God also planned that there would be a Christ.
🙂
Remember that it's you who have the contention that it was Jesus who saw Abraham. And later you asked me this question: How does it help if hes speaking as God when the question is directed to him? Notice the underlined? That was your contention. That's why I responded:
What was the context of everything? They were trying to understand something about Jesus. He replied with, before Abraham I am. He didnt say, that was the father. That is merely an unsubstatiated belief of yours. As to Jesus speaking to Abraham, that wasnt even an issue.
I followed my post with this: Again I said: Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. I am confident of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM". I am not saying that you said I claim that Jesus spoke to Abraham. Remember that it was you who have this notion that Jesus Himself saw Abraham. The reason why I posted that is to emphasize that it was my contention. Knowing that I have that contention, why do you think I would say that Jesus spoke AS GOD to the people during that time? Yet, as of your latest response:
So what is your contention for the statement? That he was saying before Abaraham he was even though "he really didnt exist" Though of course it doesnt say that, just again your opinion.
As what I am saying. There is only one God. This God is the creator of eveything. This God is God of Adam, of Noah, of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob, of Joseph, of David, of Solomon, of Moses, of Daniel, of Job, of the prophets, of Abraham's Seed - Jesus Christ, of the apostles, and of the early Chrisians. This God is none other than Jesus's God, our God and Jesus' Father, our Father. That's what I am saying. And also what the bible says:Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?...
Malachi 2:10, NIVThe demonstration is just an example... to emphasize the usage of the pronouns for plural subjects or objects.
The Bible said "Let US create man according to OUR image."
Yes. it never mentioned of the angels... as well as the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Again, the bible says that the word created everything. 🙁 Yes of course it never mentioned the angels, it is reaching to believe that is who he was talking to.
The Word is about Jesus Christ. This Word was with God in the beginning. This Word was God. But, as I am saying, it is not the same to say that the Word is Jesus Christ Himself. It is not the same to say that Jesus Christ Himself was with God in the beginning. It is not the same to say that Jesus Christ was God.It would be impossible that the Word was Jesus Christ Himself. It would appear that if the Word was Jesus Christ Himself before He became a man, this Jesus Christ was God in its very being. Remember that the Word was with God. Meaning - distinct from God. The God, and the Word are two distinct entities. If the Word is Jesus Christ Himself in its very being - a separate person - corporeal that is, Jesus as God will be with [another] God. Ends up with two Gods - a God with God. But it is not what the Bible is saying.
The Word is simply the Word - not Jesus Christ Himself. The Word was about Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Word... and therefore later called the Word of God.
The pronouns "he" and "him" were applied to this Word when John wrote his gospel. John already had the notion that Jesus Christ was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world.. because in the Old Testament, God already mentioned of the coming of the Messiah - the Christ. Not only that, Jesus was promised by God as the Seed of Abraham. Jesus couldn't have been "foreknown" or "foreordained" or "chosen before" when He was already existing. By this term alone - proginisko - it is understood that Jesus Christ seemed to be existing because God already had glorified Him and promised Him ever since. In this same reason also why Jesus Christ was considered as the "firstborn of all creation". Also the reason why He said "before Abraham was born, I am."
The word, is what Jesus has been refered to at the end times aswell. Are you getting that? He does the will of the father. But obviously you were incorrect in asserting that he hasnt been called either the word or God in the bible. Jesus Christ was not in the beginning, the son was. Being with God doesnt really mean distinct from either, most certainly not when its made clear that he was God. That he was the very exact representation of the Father. Its the reason why the statement, let us create man in our image was uttered.
Again, your assertion that the Son didnt exist contradicts the bible. The bible clearly states that the word had life, that the word created everything, God the father says it too, that it was his son etc. Also, obviously the word is not discussed as if it were just some plan. Not in the slightest. Plans are not refered to as he and plan to send Jesus Christ to earth did not create the world.
Again your explanation for John calling the word, HE is entirely infeasible. Its ridiculous. The word would never have been refered to as a he if it wasnt a he but rather just a plan. A plan can never be called he. It certainly wouldnt be said to do anything either.
But... keep parading that.
🙂
The Word Part2
ATTESTED TO BY THEOLOGIANS
Therefore when the Bible speaks of a plan as it does with Christ, it does not mean something with substance or state of being. In fact if we were to consult other religious authorities as to how they understand John 1:1, what is their understanding of the verse?
The New American Catholic Edition, Douay Confraternity Bible with comments and footnotes of verses will enable us to see the Catholic Church's understanding of the verse. In the footnote of this Bible for John 1:1 this is what they have stated.
St. John employs the term Word. It is so used onlv by St. John and designates the Son as a kind of intellectual emanation from the Father."
If we would consult a dictionary as to the meanings of intellectual and emanation, the understanding of the verse by Catholic authorities would become much clearer. Intellectual — "devoted to matters of the mind." Emanation — "to come out from a source." In other words "intellectual emanation from the Father" means a thought coming from the Father.
Furthermore, it must be remembered that the original language used in writing the New Testament is Greek. What is the Greek word for "Word" in John 1:1 and does it mean something with substance or already having a state of being? Turning again to Dr. Ryrie's comments in the Ryrie Study Bible, he states this on page 1599:
Word (Greek: logos) logos means word, thought, concept, and the expressions thereof.
Word or logos in the Greek language means thought or concept. This is very similar to what the Catholic authorities state as to the meaning of "Word." In fact, in the secular language of the Greeks, logos does not change its meaning, as can be read from the The New Encyclopaedia Britannica Micropaedia.
Logos (Greek: 'word reason, or 'plan'😉 (p. 302)
All these terms which are descriptive of the word logos do not indicate something with substance or state of being. Intellectual emanation, thought, concept, reason and plan are terms which refer to things which are abstract and without substance. Therefore, when Apostle John wrote "In the beginning was the Word," and the Apostle Paul wrote, "the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God," and Peter wrote, "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world," the Bible is not teaching that Christ eternally existed with state of being but rather God had a plan that there would be a Christ.
AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
This now leads us to the second part of the verse, "and the Word was with God." What is the meaning of this portion of the Verse? As mentioned before in Ephesians 3:9, 11 and I Peter 1:20, there is a plan of God that there would be a Christ. Since it was God who thought of it, it follows that the word or plan was with God, because the source and origin of the word is God. Did this plan which originated with God remain only with Him? Did it remain hidden with God, who solely know of it for all times? In Romans 1:2-3 the Apostle Paul reveals God's will and purpose.
which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh. (NASB)
God's plan did not remain with Him hidden in mystery but was revealed to mankind through His prophets. He revealed it in the form of a promise which we can find written in the Holy Scriptures.
AND THE WORD WAS GOD
This brings us to the third and last part of the verse, "and the Word was God." This is the reason why many people today believe that Christ is God. They say, "Can't you see that Christ is the Word, and the Word was God, therefore Christ is God!"
This is a hasty conclusion on their part regarding John 1:1. What is the biblical meaning of what John wrote "and the Word was God?" The Gospel according to Luke shows the uniqueness of God's word.
"For no word from God shall be void of power."
Luke 1:37, (ASV)
When John wrote, "and the Word was God," he was not teaching that Christ is God but rather he was showing the quality of God's Word. This unique characteristic of the Word is that there is no word of God void of power. God's word possesses His power. What about God? What is the quality of God? God Himself declares His uniqueness in Genesis 17:1.
Now when Abram was ninetv-nine years old,
the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, '1 am God Almighty(NASB)
The quality of God is He is almighty or all-powerful, likewise His words are powerful. This is why John said, "and the Word was God." John was teaching God's word is powerful as the One who had spoken the word is all-powerful.
This is also attested to by other theologians like those who compiled The New Bible Dictionary, in reference to John 1:1 it is stated thus:
"The Word possesses a like power to God who speaks it." (p. 744)
This is not the only book written by theologians which agree to the fact that the phrase "and the Word was God," speaks of the quality of the Word in power rather than to Christ allegedly having a state of being as God or pre-existing as God. In a book entitled An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C.F.D. Moule, this is stated:
"It is necessarily without the article (Theos not o' Theos) in as much as it describes the nature of the Word and does not identify His Person." (p. 116)
Moule is referring to the grammatical construction of the phrase, "the word was God," in the original Greek language. The Greek word in question is "Theos." When "Theos" is preceded bv the article "o" it in-dicates that God is being used as a noun. But what can be seen in the existing Greek manuscripts of John 1:1 is that the article "o" is not present before the word Theos. This being the case, "theos" is not used as a noun but as an adjective. Apostle John used the word, "Theos," to express the quality of the Word rather than identifying the person. In other words, he employs the word Theos in describing the logos that the logos possesses the quality of God and not that the logos is God in state of being. The English equivalent of "Theos" without the article "o" would be the adjective divine. This is proven bv other Bible translations such as Moffatt's rendition of the verse. Thus it is stated in John 1:1.
"The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine."
Therefore, as much as people would like to assert that Christ is God because the Word was God, such a belief however, is without foundation. The Greek manuscripts [the original New Testament] of John 1:1 do not support their claim. Even those Bible translators who are proficient in the Greek of the New Testament agree that "Theos" is being employed as an adjective describing the quality of the Word. Since the Word originated from God and the quality of the Word. Since the Word originated from God and the quality of God is powerful so likewise is His Word. Why then is the Word of God powerful? God declares in Isaiah 46:11 the reason why His word has power.
"...Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it. surely I will do it." (NASB)
The word of God has power because God will do what He has planned, or will bring it to pass. What is the proof that what God has planned will come to pass hence His words have power? In John 1:14 —
"And the Word was made flesh..." (KJV)
God's plan that there would be a Christ came to pass. His word has power. But does this mean that the word has power by itself? No. The Word does not possess power by itself, because the Word did not make itself flesh. It was made flesh! Someone made the Word flesh. Who made it flesh? He was the One who spoke the Word, God the Father, the Creator of all things. The biblical meaning of the "the Word was made flesh" is explained by the Apostle Pual in Galatians 4:4.
"But when the fulness of time came,
God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (NASB)
The Word was made flesh meant that God's plan was realized when God sent His Son born of a woman. And being the fulfillment of God's plan, Jesus Christ was then believed as the Word of God.
THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE
Therefore John 1:1 is not teaching any pre-existing being in the person of Jesus Christ. Rather, when the Gospel of John states, "In the beginning was the Word," this means that before the foundation of the world God had planned that there would be a Christ. Also when the Gospel states, "and the Word was with God," this means God is the origin or the source of the Word. The last part of the verse which states, "and the Word was God," shows the quality of the Word which has power like the One who spoke it. And when John stated, "the Word was made flesh," God's plan was fulfilled when Jesus was born of Mary.
What is the importance of knowing the truth that the Father is the only true God and the truth that Christ is not God but rather the Son of the only true Clod. Our Lord Jesus Christ makes known to us the importance; of this great truth, in John 17:3,1.
"And this is eternal life, that they mav know Thee, the onlv true, and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent.
"This things Jesus spoke: and lifting up His eves to heaven, He said, father, the hour has come; glorify Thy son, that the Son may glorify thee.”
The importance of knowing this great truth is that, it means eternal life. This is what man must know to take hold of God's promise of eternal life.
Originally posted by clickclick
What was the context of everything? They were trying to understand something about Jesus. He replied with, before Abraham I am. He didnt say, that was the father. That is merely an unsubstatiated belief of yours. As to Jesus speaking to Abraham, that wasnt even an issue.So what is your contention for the statement? That he was saying before Abaraham he was even though "he really didnt exist" Though of course it doesnt say that, just again your opinion.
The people at that time questioned Jesus' authority upon saying that when they believe in Him they will not die... because God sent Him to the world.
Did the people easily believed on that? They didn't. How couldn't a person die when their father Abraham died they thought. Jesus replied that Abraham has seen His glorious day. There, it can be glean that Jesus is speaking FIGURATIVELY. How did Abraham saw His glorious day when He was born later than him? It should be noted that God has made a covenant between Abraham and his Seed. This Seed would be his descendant Jesus Christ. Yet, the people still asked something like: "How did you saw Abraham when you are not yet fifty years old?" Again, Jesus answered them FIGURATIVELY: "before Abraham was born, I AM". Which is true because it is a Biblical fact that Jesus is the "firstborn of al creation".
Now, again. As what I am saying. Why did Jesus say "before Abraham was born, I AM"? In what sense does Jesus Christ was born before Abraham? Remember that Jesus Christ, as a descendant to Abraham, was born later than Abraham. Therefore, it is not in a literal sense that Jesus was born before Abraham. Again, in what sense does Jesus was before Abraham was born?
Apostle Peter said: "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world".
Again. He was FOREKNOWN [Gk. proginosko].
🙂
According to our Lord Jesus Christ there is only one true God — the Father. Christ did not say, "that they may know Us," or, "that they may know You and Me as the only true God." He excluded Himself from the statement, "the only true God," as He pointed to the Father in heaven as the only true God.Hence, the understanding of people who take John 1:1 to mean that Christ preexisted in the beginning with God as god is against the Holy Scriptures. It follows that theirs is an improper understanding of the verse.
THE BIBLICAL MEANING
People may now ask, "If John 1:1 does not express the pre-existence of Christ as God already with the Father, what then does the verse mean?" In order to find out the biblical meaning of the verse in question, it must first be understood that there are three elements in John 1:1, namely:
1. In the beginning was the Word
2. And the Word was with God
3. And the Word was GodLet us take a look at this verse piece by piece to come to the true understanding of John 1:1. What is the meaning of the first segment, "In the beginning was the Word?" Does it imply that Christ is God who had substance or state of being with God? The answer can be found in Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians,
"This was according to the eternal purpose
which he realized in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Ephesians 3:11, RSVThere is an eternal purpose or plan which was realized in Jesus Christ. Since when did God conceive of this plan? Again the Apostle Paul further explains:
"And to make all men see what is the plan
of the mystery hidden for ages in God
who created all things;"
Ephesians 3:9Paul tells us that the purpose or plan of God was conceived and was hidden for ages. In the same manner, John is teaching that in the beginning, ages ago, God already planned that there would be a Christ. When was this ages ago? This is further revealed by the Apostle Peter:
"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world,
but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."
I Peter 1:20When John wrote, "In the beginning was the Word," he is teaching that in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, God has already foreknown or planned that there shall be a Christ.
There is an argument of some people who say even though Christ was planned before the foundation of the world, He was existing with God in the beginning in His present state of being. If this were the case and if people would continue to hold to such a line of reasoning what would be the disastrous effect in clinging to such a belief?
In Ephesians 1:4, according to the Apostle Paul who else were chosen or planned before the foundation of the world?
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and blameless before Him, in love."
Ephesians 1:4Man was also chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. Is it correct to infer that all men had pre-existence in state of being? This is not what the apostle is teaching. It can be read quite clearly in the book of Genesis that God created the world before he created man. Paul is teaching that man was chosen or planned to be in Christ. Just as God also planned that there would be a Christ.
Christ was being humble. He is not the Father regardless, but the exact respresentation. By very nature, God. We arent going to go over this again, its already been done. John said the word had life, God the father said the son created, the bible says it and makes it clear.
As to pre existence to their being, you dont seriously contend that two those are comparble do you?
Originally posted by clickclick
Again, the bible says that the word created everything. 🙁 Yes of course it never mentioned the angels, it is reaching to believe that is who he was talking to.
So is it wrong to say that the Father, the only true God created everything? 🙄