Jesus Christ

Just for a review. You posted this:

Originally posted by clickclick
Proverbs 8 :22-31

The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old. I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there was no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust in the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with the delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in the his whole world and delighting in mankind.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

How could he have glory with the father before the world was if he didnt exist?

How could he do those things before the world was?

There is obviously a reason why the word is refered to as a he.

Col 1 :15-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in the heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, abd through him reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his pblood shed on the cross.

This explains why he was by very nature God but humbled himself.

John 1:1-5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; with him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

John 1: 9-12

The True light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

How much clearer can it get? It clearly says that the word had life and that the word was he. Who was the word? The firstborn over all creation.

Rev 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called the Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Jesus being refered to as the Word.

This explains how it makes sense that Jesus was sent FROM heaven to earth.

John 6:38 says, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me"

John 5: 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling Gos his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Now who exactly was saying that before Abraham am I?

Now who exactly was talking when they said let us make man in OUR image?

Again, you still havent explained why or how God could make man in his image aswell as the angels at the same time.

John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the one and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

I noticed the very first passage you cited, which is the Proverbs 8:22-31. That's why I asked you: And what is the relevance of that passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning? In order to determine the relevance, we should need to know who speaking in that particular passage is. And you said:

Why would you need ME to tell you when the bible tells us who it is? Answer your own question.

As to the relevance, its quite clear.

I also clarified that it was the wisdom of God which is speaking in the passage. This wisdom is the master craftsman which was with God during the creation of the world. The passage has not even mentioned about Jesus, the Son. So how come that it is relevant to the claim that He was with God during the creation? Yet you said:

You are saying that Jesus Christ is not mentioned in that passage, however somebody is clearly being mentioned as being alongside the Father. The bible tells us who that is, it is the Son.

Im saying it was the Son, just as God the Father does, just as it does many times over in the bible.

Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage, there are still many other things that you havent even acknowledged.

So you can't answer, that's it.

Dont kid yourself. I dont have a problem answering it in itself, I have a problem with the fact that you are asking questions despite being unable to answer mine. That is the problem. Had you done that and im not even talking about starting at the post which began with proverbs, then I wouldnt mind answering your question. It is a rather simple concept. Answer the questions before that and I will most certainly answer yours after that.

Lastly, Provers 8:22 was not the least bit crucial. I wouldnt mind conceeding that one but there are passages that are VERY direct and the fact remains, you still havent even been able to explain why the WORD would be reffered to as he. Why Jesus would talk about the glory he had with the father before the world was. That in itself is quite clear. Or how Jesus could actually be the alpha without existing etc etc.

Ive been waiting on those answers and some other answers from you for a long time now.

After you do that, then we will get back to the more recent stuff.

Still waiting. 🙄

The very reason why I chose your most recent post is that.. it's all there. The passages you quoted from the past are all there. You quoted them to prove the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. So, it's better to start there over again because it's recent.

There's no problem actually which one should come first. What is the reason why you quoted those passages anyway? For me to dispute, right? But, the fact remains here, that after this just recent discussion... we come up with this: Finally, you indirectly admit that Proverbs 8:22-31 has no relevance to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Our previous posts say so. So, it's final. According to yourself, it is irrelevant. Don't tell me you didn't say it's irrelevant. Of course you didn't utter these words that it is indeed irrelevant. But by saying that:

Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage, there are still many other things that you havent even acknowledged.

Please, if you dont know what this has to do with Jesus, that is sad.

So here. Regarding the Word.

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God."

I just want to emphasize first that this is not our original discussion. You formerly claimed the ff:
1. that Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit made up the one God.
2. that Jesus Christ is not exactly God.
3. that the concept of the Trinity is found in the Bible.

That's why I asked you for the Biblical verse where it says that this three made up one God. Have you shown me any? Yes you have and I remember you laughed for it. You've shown me 1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. But I've proven that this particular translation [called the Johannine Comma] was erroneous and prejudice, and was absent in most of Bible versions, especially in Greek. But you didn't refute back because I was right.

Instead, you came up saying Jesus was God who became man by quoting a Philippian verse. But the verse is not saying that Jesus Christ was God who became man but Jesus having the qualities of God given to Him by God Himself, yet Jesus still chose to live as a man... by becoming obedient even up to His death on the cross. As I said, the verse is all about HUMILITY.

See, the difference of your contention? You said that Jesus Christ is not exactly God... yet you're still holding on to the concept that Jesus was God.

Now, we came up with this Word thing. You are claiming that Jesus Christ existed in the beginning... not as a man Jesus.. but as the Word.

I already have responded to these things. As I've said, Jesus Christ was FOREKNOWN before the foundation of the world, as according to Peter. How can we possibly say that a "person" or a "being" or a "thing" was foreknown [Gk. proginosko] when he/it is already existing? Proginosko on the other hand means "foreordained", "chosen before", or simply "intellectually emanated"... meaning, the subject of "foreknown" is "in the mind" of somebody who "foreknown" it.

As I said, having Christ in the future was planned by God. So, Jesus Christ is the subject of the plan. When He was still a plan, of course, He's not still existing.

Jesus Christ was glorified in the beginning because He was planned by God to appear in later time. His glory was seen by Abraham because God declared to Abraham that the covenant will continue up to his Seed. This Seed shall be Abraham's descendant. Christ was also promised by God in the Garden of Eden... There, having Christ in the future is inevitable. But the truth remains that Jesus Christ Himself was not there with God in the begining. He was yet a plan.

Jesus Christ is the sole reason why God created everything ... ALONE.

Why did John the Apostle used the term Word to refer to Christ as the one in the beginning?

Because, in the beginning there's no Jesus Christ yet. Jesus Christ did not exist before He was born. Jesus Christ was an intellectual emanation from God in the beginning. And God knew that Jesus Christ will appear as a human being in the future... not a plant... not an animal... not a toy.

And why the Word was referred to as a "He" or "Him" in the succeeding verses?

If only the Word is about a plant, an animal, or a toy... Apostle John can say: "It was with God in the beginning". Remember, that when Apostle John wrote the gospel, Jesus Christ already existed. Jesus Christ was already a human being. Jesus Christ was prophesied in the Old Testament. These old books had already proclaimed many things regarding Christ, the Messiah. There's a reason why he used the term Logos ... and the reason was that: Jesus was planned by God in the beginning. He was the Word... but not in the sense that the Word was Jesus Christ Himself. Again, Jesus Christ only existed when this Word later made flesh - the fulfillment of God's plan about having Christ in the world.

Christ's being the firstborn does not literally mean He was born before everything. He was born before everything in the sense that He was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

🙂

Again, I asked you questions prior to that that you have been avoiding since basically the beginning of this.

Like I said, as soon as you answer those questions I will answer whatever it is YOU would like to know. The fact of the matter is, you havent been able to and instead want to divert the focus on to me. Well, you are up first. Thats just the way it is.

The very reason why I chose your most recent post is that.. it's all there. The passages you quoted from the past are all there. You quoted them to prove the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. So, it's better to start there over again because it's recent.

There's no problem actually which one should come first. What is the reason why you quoted those passages anyway? For me to dispute, right? But, the fact remains here, that after this just recent discussion... we come up with this: Finally, you indirectly admit that Proverbs 8:22-31 has no relevance to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Our previous posts say so. So, it's final. According to yourself, it is irrelevant. Don't tell me you didn't say it's irrelevant. Of course you didn't utter these words that it is indeed irrelevant. But by saying that:

quote:
Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage, there are still many other things that you havent even acknowledged.

So you pushed me to acknowledge the rest of the passages you quoted. smile So, Proverbs 8:22-31 has no help to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning, which you said earlier it has relevance by saying:

I didnt refute whether or not it was erroneous because I cant. I dont have the original greek text, I can neither dispute nor agree with how accurate a certain transulation was.

Ive already explained numerous times how he could be "foreknown". He was given the name Jesus Christ when the word became flesh. Sending him to earth was a plan but that doesnt mean in any way that he didnt exist in heaven.

As you claim he didnt exist, he couldnt have HAD glory with the father. How could he have something when he didnt exist?

You claim that God created everything alone yet earlier you claim that he created stuff with the angels. Well, which is it?

Christ is refered to as the Word of God in revelations aswell. The reason why he wasnt refered to as Christ before is simply because he wasnt a man at that point and did not have that name. However obviously, he has been refered as that later on.

You still have yet to sufficiently justify why he would refer to the word as he. Here is the fact of the matter. If the word was not an existence, then it would never be refered to as a HE. It would be an it. The bible wouldnt say that the word had life. Your explanation that he refered to the word as he because Jesus existed, is illogical. Because as you stated, the word was just a plan and not the Son.

Still waiting on the sufficient explanation for why Jesus would call himself the Alpha. When he says he is the Omega, we know its literal. He didnt say that the plan was in the beginning but that HE IS THE BEGINNING. Sounds just like the same HE that is refered to as the word, by which all things were created. That is the beginning, the alpha. Truth. The plan to send Jesus Christ to earth doesnt make him the alpha either.

Finally, you indirectly admit that Proverbs 8:22-31 has no relevance to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Our previous posts say so. So, it's final. According to yourself, it is irrelevant.

It is simply unimportant in regards to the assertion that there is obvious biblical support that the Son existed in the beginning. I have posted other ones, ones that were very direct.

So....... Ill be waiting.... 😉

Read all my posts clickclick... read them carefully. I already have addressed all of your posts except the one passage you quoted John 1:18. It's just that you don't recognize them. Of course, you won't. That's predictable. 🙂 You refute all of my posts by simply saying I was WRONG. In fact I am waiting for the reason why you said I was wrong for the sake of the argument. I am waiting for your refute. Instead, you are avoiding them.

In fact, I was the one who asked for the Biblical verse which says that God is made up of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit... and even until now, you haven't shown me any. Did I have problem with that? No. 🙂

You said earlier that Jesus Christ is not exactly God. And later you are holding on to the concept that Jesus is God. Did I have any problem with your inconsistency? No. In fact, being consistent in an argument like this is very important. Yet you said, that you are saying Jesus is not exactly God.. but you are not saying that Jesus is God because it's the Bible. Playing safe, that is. Hello? Am I chatting with the Bible? Is it the Bible came in front of the computer and typed its own verses and have argued with me? 🙂 But did I have any problem with that? No.

And now, we are going in circles. You didn't even address enough everything in my last post. It's all there. But because we've been this long. I mean, look at the pages. And honestly, scanning the previous pages is stressful. That's why I suggest, let's come up with a final concept ... I mean, the CONSISTENT one.. for the sake of the argument. Who ever may come first, the important thing is that, each side should make a plain argumentation.

But my side remains the same. That:

Jesus Christ our Lord is the Son of God. He is the Mediator between God and men. He is the Savior and Lord of all. He is the way and light for everyone. He is the wisdom of God. He is everything God made Him to be. But He remains to be a man. Being a man, that proves that He is not God. For God is God and not man. And man is not God. Nor God can be both man and God. This God is none other than the Father, the Creator of everything. Jesus Christ did not exist before He was born. Yes, He was the firstborn in the sense that He was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world. I am confident the Bible is telling me so. 🙂

My side remains that:

The God is not made up of these three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Only one among these three is God. And that is the Father.

As for the "Alpha and Omega"... This title was applied to both God and Christ. But that doesn't mean Jesus is God.. or God is Jesus. As I've said earlier in previous pages: there are titles of God that were also applicable to Christ... like the Lord, the Rock, and the Savior. But there are differences and distinctions.

Although the words "Alpha" and "Omega" are used to describe both God (in Rev. 1:8) and Christ (in Rev.22:13), this neither states nor means that God and Christ are the same--one God. And to conclude that Christ is also God based on these verses is contradicting the fundamental doctrine that there is one true God, the Father Almighty (Jn. 17:1, 3).

Alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) and Omega (last letter of the Greek alphabet) mean first and last, respectively. Although it is stated that both God and Christ are "Alpha" and "Omega" they differ in their being "Alpha" and "Omega."

The Lord God is Alpha or first since He is the creator of all things and all things came from Him:

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came..."
I Corinthians. 8:6, NIV

God is Omega or last because He was the One who appointed the day of Judgement or the end of the world, and when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, Christ will subject Himself to God so that "God may be all in all" [Acts 17:31; I Cor. 15:28]

On the other hand, Christ is Alpha or first because He is the firstborn of all creation:

"He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation."
Colossians. 1:15, NIV

Therefore, the use of Alpha as applied to Christ is significantly different from the use of Alpha as applied to God. Likewise, Omega as applied to Christ is also different from the Omega as applied to God. Christ is Omega because it is through Him that God will judge the world:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (II Cor. 5:10, Ibid.)

It is important to bear in mind that the use of "Alpha" and "Omega" for God is different in meaning and in sense from that for Christ. Hence, Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 do not prove that Christ is God... nor Christ existed in the beginning as God.

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
Read all my posts clickclick... read them carefully. I already have addressed all of your posts except the one passage you quoted John 1:18. It's just that you don't recognize them. Of course, you won't. That's predictable. 🙂 You refute all of my posts by simply saying I was WRONG. In fact I am waiting for the reason why you said I was wrong for the sake of the argument. I am waiting for your refute. Instead, you are avoiding them.

In fact, I was the one who asked for the Biblical verse which says that God is made up of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit... and even until now, you haven't shown me any. Did I have problem with that? No. 🙂

You said earlier that Jesus Christ is not exactly God. And later you are holding on to the concept that Jesus is God. Did I have any problem with your inconsistency? No. In fact, being consistent in an argument like this is very important. Yet you said, that you are saying Jesus is not exactly God.. but you are not saying that Jesus is God because it's the Bible. Playing safe, that is. Hello? Am I chatting with the Bible? Is it the Bible came in front of the computer and typed its own verses and have argued with me? 🙂 But did I have any problem with that? No.

And now, we are going in circles. You didn't even address enough everything in my last post. It's all there. But because we've been this long. I mean, look at the pages. And honestly, scanning the previous pages is stressful. That's why I suggest, let's come up with a final concept ... I mean, the CONSISTENT one.. for the sake of the argument. Who ever may come first, the important thing is that, each side should make a plain argumentation.

But my side remains the same. That:

[b]Jesus Christ our Lord is the Son of God. He is the Mediator between God and men. He is the Savior and Lord of all. He is the way and light for everyone. He is the wisdom of God. He is everything God made Him to be. But He remains to be a man. Being a man, that proves that He is not God. For God is God and not man. And man is not God. Nor God can be both man and God. This God is none other than the Father, the Creator of everything. Jesus Christ did not exist before He was born. Yes, He was the firstborn in the sense that He was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world. I am confident the Bible is telling me so. 🙂

My side remains that:

The God is not made up of these three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Only one among these three is God. And that is the Father. [/B]

I didnt say that you have attempted to address some of them but sufficiently addressing them is another story all together.

The first thing I stated was that he wasnt exactly God, Ive never changed that. When you said you think that means im unsure, I said that wasnt the case. However that was merely a simplified answer because God is complicated. You continue to ignorantly/foolishly claim that I have "contradicted myself" .

Funny that you want to "call it quits" after the those last posts I made from hebrews and so on. What a joke.

I addressed whatever was relevant in your last post. Which contrary to what you might believe, was not much.

You didnt even quote the entire passage when John talks about the word.

John 1: 1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; with him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Again, it tells us here that its a he. Something you can prove incapable of rationally explaning. Number two, it says that in him was life. It says in the word was life. Through him all (there is that pesky him again) all things were made. How can things be made through the plan to send Jesus to die for man's sins?

Again though, IN HIM WAS LIFE.

John 1: 9-12

The True light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

Also, as I mentioned earlier Jesus is refered to as the Word of God. Which of course you have choosen to ignore.

Col 1 :15-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in the heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, abd through him reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.

Again, this says by him. That concept is quite straight for, it was done by him. Him, not it, and not with the foreknowledge of. But by him.

John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the one and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Jesus being called, God the one and Only.

These are some of the things you have choosen not to address. Then you pompously claim that you have responsed to many of these things?

😆

Hewbrews 1:1-13

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, who he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of the God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in Heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For which to which angels did God ever say,

"You are MY son; today I have become your Father?"

Or again,

"I will be his Father and he will be my Son?"

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says

"Let all God's angels worship him"

In speaking to the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds , his servants flames of fire"

But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

You never responded to this one either. Why am I not surprised that you are "ready to call it quits".

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
As for the "Alpha and Omega"... This title was applied to both God and Christ. But that doesn't mean Jesus is God.. or God is Jesus. As I've said earlier in previous pages: there are titles of God that were also applicable to Christ... like the Lord, the Rock, and the Savior. But there are differences and distinctions.

Although the words "Alpha" and "Omega" are used to describe both God (in Rev. 1:8) and Christ (in Rev.22:13), this neither states nor means that God and Christ are the same--one God. And to conclude that Christ is also God based on these verses is contradicting the fundamental doctrine that there is one true God, the Father Almighty (Jn. 17:1, 3).

Alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) and Omega (last letter of the Greek alphabet) mean first and last, respectively. Although it is stated that both God and Christ are "Alpha" and "Omega" they differ in their being "Alpha" and "Omega."

The Lord God is Alpha or first since He is the creator of all things and all things came from Him:

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came..."
[b]I Corinthians. 8:6, NIV

God is Omega or last because He was the One who appointed the day of Judgement or the end of the world, and when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, Christ will subject Himself to God so that "God may be all in all" [Acts 17:31; I Cor. 15:28]

On the other hand, Christ is Alpha or first because He is the firstborn of all creation:

"He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation."
Colossians. 1:15, NIV

Therefore, the use of Alpha as applied to Christ is significantly different from the use of Alpha as applied to God. Likewise, Omega as applied to Christ is also different from the Omega as applied to God. Christ is Omega because it is through Him that God will judge the world:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (II Cor. 5:10, Ibid.)

It is important to bear in mind that the use of "Alpha" and "Omega" for God is different in meaning and in sense from that for Christ. Hence, Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 do not prove that Christ is God... nor Christ existed in the beginning as God.

🙂 [/B]

When Jesus said before Abraham, I am. How does it help if hes speaking as God when the question is directed to him?

Actually, the bible says that the Word created everything, not God the Father. A plan can not create. Secondly, God the Father says that Jesus created everything and even he calls him God.

You claimed that God the Father created everything, which contradicts what you said before. That he was creating with the angels.

You should also cite your source instead of plagirizing.

You believe that it is not the same application/type of Alpha being used to describe the Father as it is the Son, well that is just your opinion/interpretation. Added to which, he literally means in the context of his ending everything that he is the Omega, so to suggest that the Alpha statement is not in the same kind of context is reaching.

Stop stating your opinions like they are anywhere near fact. They are merely exaggerated attempts at reaching.

🙂

Except for John 1:18, The rest of the passages was posted after Proverbs 8:22-31. That's why I suggest before, we would start there if you won't mind. That's why I said "because it's all there."... So it won't really be a big deal because even I start responding with the Proverbs 8:22-31... we will still pass through the rest of your posts. But still you refused. ... because you can't answer my question on Proverbs 8:22-31.. you pushed me to the stuff I haven't responded yet. Well, as I've said I didn't have any problem when you avoided my original question. It's okay with me if you can't answer that one. The answer like: "Sorry, I can't refute that because I can't. I don't have copy of Greek... etc" is not really acceptable in an argument like this. BUt do I have problem with that? 🙄 But remember how you backed up that one: you posted a laughing smilie as if you were so sure. 😆

Anyway. Don't worry with the rest of the passages you quoted... we'll get to that later.

I just want to take note your claim in this discussion, first. Remember that you said:

> Jesus is not exactly God.
> The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit made up one God.
> The Trinity [which means that the father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God] concept is found in the Bible.

For the record, let's keep those up and still accessible in this discussion. 🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
When Jesus said before Abraham, I am. How does it help if hes speaking as God when the question is directed to him?

Never in this entire thread have I said that Jesus spoke to Abraham. Take note of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Actually, the bible says that the Word created everything, not God the Father. A plan can not create. Secondly, God the Father says that Jesus created everything and even he calls him God.

Just to add on my list, you said:
4. It's not God the Father who created everything.

We will learn that later.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
You claimed that God the Father created everything, which contradicts what you said before. That he was creating with the angels.

I am saying the Father ALONE, the only true God, created everything.

Originally posted by clickclick
You should also cite your source instead of plagirizing.

Originally posted by clickclick
You believe that it is not the same application/type of Alpha being used to describe the Father as it is the Son, well that is just your opinion/interpretation. Added to which, he literally means in the context of his ending everything that he is the Omega, so to suggest that the Alpha statement is not in the same kind of context is reaching.

Stop stating your opinions like they are anywhere near fact. They are merely exaggerated attempts at reaching.

🙂

As to the "foreknown" stuff... If Jesus Christ being the Word Himself existed in the beginning, how can it be still applicable to say that He was 'foreknown" when He was already existing by the time God "foreknown" Him? Since He Himself wasn't not there in the beginning, God "foreknown" Him. That is the very reason why the term proginosko was used -- foreknown, foreordain, chosen before. How can you possibly say that Jesus Christ = Word already existing in the beginning yet He was "foreknown"?

Except for John 1:18, The rest of the passages was posted after Proverbs 8:22-31. That's why I suggest before, we would start there if you won't mind. That's why I said "because it's all there."... So it won't really be a big deal because even I start responding with the Proverbs 8:22-31... we will still pass through the rest of your posts. But still you refused. ... because you can't answer my question on Proverbs 8:22-31.. you pushed me to the stuff I haven't responded yet. Well, as I've said I didn't have any problem when you avoided my original question. It's okay with me if you can't answer that one. The answer like: "Sorry, I can't refute that because I can't. I don't have copy of Greek... etc" is not really acceptable in an argument like this. BUt do I have problem with that? roll eyes (sarcastic) But remember how you backed up that one: you posted a laughing smilie as if you were so sure. laughing

Anyway. Don't worry with the rest of the passages you quoted... we'll get to that later.

I just want to take note your claim in this discussion, first. Remember that you said:

> Jesus is not exactly God.
> The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit made up one God.
> The Trinity [which means that the father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God] concept is found in the Bible.

For the record, let's keep those up and still accessible in this discussion

I made an entire post of passages, yet you are acting as if they are seperate. Simply respond to the post, I already said we could move on from Proverbs. Yet you dont want to, for obvious reasons. So you will continue to talk about it, I suppose.

I said essentially Jesus is part of God, that he is not the father, nor the holy spirit but that they are all divine. That the Son existed before the world was.

As to the Greek text, this is quite simple really. How am I going to refute that when I dont know greek and dont have the original text in front of me?

Originally posted by Jury
Well, that's your opinion. I acknowledge that. 🙄

🙂

Yes, make sure not to acknowledge the issue at hand. Like context. Again, it is merely your opinion/interpretation and it is reaching at that.

Originally posted by Jury
Never in this entire thread have I said that [b]Jesus spoke to Abraham. Take note of that. It was the Lord God, who spoke to Abraham as recorded in the Old testament, not Jesus Christ. It was God who told Abraham: "I AM WHO I AM".

🙂 [/B]

No, your response is that he was speaking as God when he said that to the men. They were asking Jesus about himself, not God the father.
🙂