Jesus Christ

Hewbrews 1:1-13

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, who he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of the God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in Heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For which to which angels did God ever say,

"You are MY son; today I have become your Father?"

Or again,

"I will be his Father and he will be my Son?"

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says

"Let all God's angels worship him"

In speaking to the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds , his servants flames of fire"

But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Whats this, is this God the father calling Jesus God? Does it not say that he is the exact representation of his being? Does it also not say that he was God. That he was by very nature God? Ive pointed out to you another place (among others) that states Jesus is God, sitting at the fathers right hand.

Whats this? Is the Father saying that Jesus created the universe? It says it more than once in that passage that Jesus created everything.
It says it numerous times in the bible too.

Now, who is the alpha and the omega? JESUS IS.

It is your post. That's why I am asking you. What is the relevance of that passage to the claim that Jesus existed in the beginning?

Is Proverbs 8:22-31 saying that Jesus Christ existed in the beginnng? That's why I asked you (to make it more clear) who is the one speaking in that passage?

I would like to know why YOU cant answer that one yourself. Do you not know? Or are you playing games? What is it?

🙂 clickclick, please answer the question first (as part of 'breaking this down' 🙂 ). Don't worry, I acknowledge your last post but we go back first to Proverbs 8:22-31. What is the relevance of this passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning?

🙂

Okay. I acknowledge your refusal.

My response:

Proverbs 8:22-31 has nothing to do with the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. I presume that the passage you quoted was just a decoration on your post.

You said it's clear. So I presume that Proverbs 8:22-31 supports the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning.

Let me quote the passage again:

22"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[a]
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:22-31 (New King James Version)

So?

Yes, I did refuse to answer your question. You should have answered it yourself.

Okay. I acknowledge your refusal.

My response:

Proverbs 8:22-31 has nothing to do with the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. I presume that the passage you quoted was just a decoration on your post.

You said it's clear. So I presume that Proverbs 8:22-31 supports the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning.

Let me quote the passage again:

22"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[a]
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.

It tells us that somebody was with him and was a master craftsman. Just as it tells us in other parts of the bible, numerous times that Jesus created everything. Just as Jesus himself says that he created everything. That is, the Alpha. Just as God the Father says that he created everything.

Please, if you dont know what this has to do with Jesus, that is sad. You are correct if you are saying it doesnt say the name Jesus Christ right there but everything I posted was interelated.

Now tell me, who the master craftsman was. Umm, how about addressing the passage and trying to explain it.

How about addressing them any things that I have said. You still havent even addressed how the word could be called he.

Still waiting. 🙄

The master craftsman is none other than the Creator Himself - the one and only true God - the Father.

Precisely, there is no Jesus Christ mentioned. That's why I asked you who is speaking in the verse?

🙂

You posted the passage, right? So I asked you what would be it's relevance to the claim that Jesus Himself existed in the beginning. So why do you think I should answer? You said it's clear. So i presume that the passage has something to do with Jesus. In what way? Is Jesus there? Is it talking about Jesus? Or what?

🙂

The master craftsman is none other than the Creator Himself - the one and only true God - the Father.

Precisely, there is no Jesus Christ mentioned. That's why I asked you who is speaking in the verse?

So the father was at his own side when he was creating everything? He was rejoicing before himself?

That is your contention?

You are saying that Jesus Christ is not mentioned in that passage, however somebody is clearly being mentioned as being alongside the Father. The bible tells us who that is, it is the Son. This passage and the other ones I posted are all interelated.

You posted the passage, right? So I asked you what would be it's relevance to the claim that Jesus Himself existed in the beginning. So why do you think I should answer? You said it's clear. So i presume that the passage has something to do with Jesus. In what way? Is Jesus there? Is it talking about Jesus? Or what?

Again, all the stuff I posted is interrelated. Now please give me a satisfactory answer as to who the master craftsman was at his side.

Quickly on the subject of man being created in their likeness. Now the Son was the exact representation of the father. Man was made by the Son, to be in their likeness. As he says, let us make man in our image. It is the father and the son who share the same image.

NOT the angels.

The angels were not created in God's image.

Anyway...

Originally posted by clickclick
So the father was at his own side when he was creating everything? He was rejoicing before himself?

That is your contention?

You are saying that Jesus Christ is not mentioned in that passage, however somebody is clearly being mentioned as being alongside the Father. The bible tells us who that is, it is the Son. This passage and the other ones I posted are all interelated.

Again, all the stuff I posted is interrelated. Now please give me a satisfactory answer as to who the master craftsman was at his side.

The Father ALONE created everything. Now, with regards to Proverbs 8:22-31, are you saying that it is Jesus Christ who is speaking in the passage (being at the side of the craftsman - the God who created all things)?

Im saying it was the Son, just as God the Father does, just as it does many times over in the bible.

Now tell me, did you really just contend that Father was the master craftsman at his own side?

He was rejoicing before himself?

The Father was his (The Father's) delight?

Please answer my questions.

Now, I see. (my mistake - I acknowledge that) 🙂

My question was: What is the relevance of Proverbs 8:22-31 to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself was there with God in the beginning during creation?

My other question was: Who is the one speaking in Proverbs 8:22-31? Okay, as you like, I'll answer my own question.

It's WISDOM who was the one speaking in that passage. Right? This same WISDOM is said to be at the side of the LORD during creation.

1 Doth not wisdom cry?...
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:1,22-31, KJV

We can see.. that it was WISDOM - the one speaking in the passage. As I said, there's no hint whatsoever that it's Jesus Christ was there with God in the beginning during creation.

I acknowledge my mistake. I missed the version you used. And obviously it used the word craftsman. The one speaking was the WISDOM of God in creation. This same WISDOM also claimed, in a personified sense, as a craftsman in the Creator's side. So, the craftsman is the WISDOM [of God in creation - meaning, His WISDOM].

But, the truth remains which I stand, that it was not Jesus Christ Himself who was with God during creation. That particular passage [Proverbs 8:22-31] does not proclaim that Jesus Christ was there with the Creator's side in the beginning.

That's why I asked you: What is the relevance of the passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed and was with God during creation?

Yet, your response was:

Im saying it was the Son, just as God the Father does, just as it does many times over in the bible.

🙂

But, the truth remains which I stand, that it was not Jesus Christ Himself who was with God during creation.

How can that be the truth when the bible states otherwise? When God the father states otherwise?

Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage, there are still many other things that you havent even acknowledged.

So, the passage has no relevance to your claim that Jesus Christ was there with God during creation. Would that mean that you have mistaken to use the passage to prove your claim? Or you just post it as decoration? Why did you quote Proverbs 8:22-31? I am asking for the relevance, right? So, what's your answer?

Not quite sure why you are asking me new questions when you havent answered or responded to the ones I asked long ago.........

Whenever you do, then come back and ask me.

for all i know, Jesus Christ and God arn't the same. Jesus Christ is the son of God, born from the Virgin Mary.

Originally posted by clickclick
Not quite sure why you are asking me new questions when you havent answered or responded to the ones I asked long ago.........

Whenever you do, then come back and ask me.

Look, it is the wisdom of God in creation was the one speaking in Proverbs 8:22-31... It is this same wisdom who said that this wisdom was possessed by the Creator... was with the Creator since the world began. How can you possibly say that it is "clear" in proving that Jesus Christ existed during creation? Okay, you said, Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage, there are still many other things that you havent even acknowledged. So, therefore, Proverbs 8:22-31 has no relevance to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed during creation? Is that what you mean by: Go ahead, even if that wasnt the Son speaking in that passage...? You accept that what you quoted was irrelevant?

If you still insist the relevance of Proverbs 8:22-31 to the claim that Jesus Christ existed during the creation, then how? That's what is all about my question: What is the relevance of that passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed during the creation of the world?

After you made this thing clear... we move on to the next passage you quoted: from Proverbs 8:22-31... to John 1:18... and to Hebrews 1.

Move on? Work your way back. Once we get back here, "then we can move on".

So you can't answer, that's it. 🙂