Jesus Christ

Originally posted by Morningstar
OK 😕 i might have missed it between u and Ytaker arguing but if the Trinity was never the original principle of Christians, what was?

Definitely, the original is the Bible's principles.

- God declares He is the only true God. (when we say "only", there's no other)

- Jesus proclaims that the Father who is in heaven is the only true God. (when He say it's the Father, definitely it's not the Son)

- The apostles of Jesus Christ believe that there is only one true God. (because that's what Christ taught them)

- Jesus Christ Himself never proclaimed He is the God. (because He is the Son of God)

- Apostles never taught God's people that Christ is the true God. (because they believe that the Father in heaven is the ONLY true God)

Those are some of the original principles the true Christians used to uphold and believe into.

When we say...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

do we mean:

In the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with God, and the Christ was God. ... ?

Well, definitely, it's not correct. Why? If Christ were the Word and He were God, then John 1:1 would be teaching not just one but two Gods. If the Word were Christ Himself and that He were God and the verse says that the Word was with God, then the obvious conclusion would be that another God was with the one true God. The aforementioned idea goes directly against the teaching of the Bible that there is only one true God.

Better to know what the "Word" used in John 1:1 really means.

"In the beginning was the Word..."

1. a word, not in the grammatical sense of a mere name ... but a word as embodying a conception or idea."
-A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, pp. 270-271

1,1: ... St. John employs the term Word. It is so used only by St. John ... and designates the Son as a kind of intellectual emanation from the Father."
-Douay Version

The Word or "logos" is not another God but refers to the idea about Christ, which was "with God" or in God's mind in the beginning.

Thus, the clause, the "logos" was with God, indicates that the "logos" is different or distinguished from God. This position does not contradict the biblical doctrine on the absolute oneness of God. On the other hand, if we were to accept the position that the "logos" is a being who, although is distinguished from God, is also God, we would face the prospect of accepting an unbiblical position that there are two Gods.

🙂

"...and the Word was with God,..."

What does it mean that the "logos" was "with God"? About what was this concept or idea that intellectually emanated from Him?

I Peter 1:20 has the answer:

"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."

God has foreknown Christ before the foundation of the world. To foreknow means to know something before it happens: to have knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen. The Greek word used in this verse is "proginosko" which is defined in Perschbacher's The New Analytical Greek Lexicon as "to determine on beforehand, to foreordain." (p.345)

Now, when did Christ, who was a plan or word in the beginning, come into existence? When he was born of a woman. The Bible says:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Galatians 4:4)

Christ existed only when He was born. He had no prior existence. In the beginning, it was not Christ Himself who was with God; it was the concept or idea (logos) that was in the mind of God, for God had destined Christ to play an integral part in His master plan of salvation (Ephesians 3:20-21)

🙂

"...and the Word was God."

The word "God" (in Greek, theos) in the third clause of John 1:1 is not a noun but an adjective. And this is attested to by Greek grammarians, such as R.H. Strachan. In his book The Fourth Gospel: It's Significance and Environment, he explains:

The closing words of v.I should be translated, "the Logos was divine'. Here the word "theos" has no article, thus giving it the significance of an adjective." (p.99)

Finally John says that the word was God. This is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because Greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which English speaks. When Greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The Greek for God is "theos" and the definite article is "ho". When Greek speaks about God it does not simply say "theos"; it says "ho theos". Now when Greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective. John did not say that the word was "ho theos"; that would have been to say that the word was identical with God. He said that the word was "theos" - without the article - which means that the word was, we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God." (p.39)

"The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine (Moffatt's Translation)

What does it mean that the "logos" was divine? It means that the word of God is with power (Like 1:37) for the true God who has spoken the word is powerful (Genesis 35:11). Since God is Almighty, He alone has the ability to plan something and the power to bring it to completion as He testified in Isaiah 46:11,

"Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass, I have planned it surely I will do it."

God's plan of bringing His Son into the world was fulfilled when Jesus was born of His mother Mary. His birth is the fulfillment of what John wrote that "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14).

Contrary to what some have postulated that Christ took a different form, i.e., from being God into being human, Christ never transformed Himself from being a pure spirit into an infant. He was conceived in Mary's womb through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear in its teaching that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) even a shadow of turning (James 1:17).

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
[b]"...and the Word was God."

The word "God" (in Greek, theos) in the third clause of John 1:1 is not a noun but an adjective. And this is attested to by Greek grammarians, such as R.H. Strachan. In his book The Fourth Gospel: It's Significance and Environment, he explains:

William Barclay, another Greek grammarian, agrees with Strachan in classifying the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 as an adjective.

Even the Bible translators agree that the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 is an adjective. Here's one of the versions:

"The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine (Moffatt's Translation)

What does it mean that the "logos" was divine? It means that the word of God is with power (Like 1:37) for the true God who has spoken the word is powerful (Genesis 35:11). Since God is Almighty, He alone has the ability to plan something and the power to bring it to completion as He testified in Isaiah 46:11,

"Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass, I have planned it surely I will do it."

God's plan of bringing His Son into the world was fulfilled when Jesus was born of His mother Mary. His birth is the fulfillment of what John wrote that "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14).

Contrary to what some have postulated that Christ took a different form, i.e., from being God into being human, Christ never transformed Himself from being a pure spirit into an infant. He was conceived in Mary's womb through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear in its teaching that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) even a shadow of turning (James 1:17).

🙂 [/B]

Look, read my posts.

If something is Godlike, It is God. Jesus is like the light emitted from
The sun, sunlight (remember, one page back?). Sunlight is the most important thing in all of the Earth's history of life. Without it, food would not exist. But that incredible volume of sunlight cannot exist independently of the sun, nor can the sun exist without the aid of an enormous volume of light. It's required to negate gravity's pull, if you're interested, but that's beside the point. They are one and the same.

He never changes. I never said he did. We're just seeing a different side of it. If my girlfriend caught me in bed with her sister, then she would show a completely attitude, in which she hated me, and her sister. But it would just be out of her ingrained belief that adultery is wrong, and that her sister steals things, like her dresses, shoes, and now boyfriends. Jesus was a part of God all along, just as PMS behavioural horsy is always hidden within my beautiful Aphrodite.

ok i think, having read all those post from Jury and some of the previous ones from Ytaker, id be very inclined to say that i think i agree with Ytaker on this issue . . . . . .
off the top of my head, John 10:30 (I think) Jesus says 'i and my father and one' . . . . . or something similar to that . . . . 🙂

I'm not going to even bother reading all 6 pages but aside from God and Jesus neither being the same person, God's not a person at all. He's an entity, and contrary to popular belief, Mary isn't his mother.

Two different "people" entirely.

Mary isn't his mother

"If someting is Godlike. It is God."

Personal perception and opinion, right? Anyway, I have posted my response regarding that thing. 🙂

Jesus' Godlike qualities is indeed mentioned in the Bible... but it doesn't prove that He is the one and only true God.

He has Godlike qualities because God made Him to be like Him. That's why God gave Christ all the authority both in heavens and in earth (i.e: can do miracles and even forgive people's sins) ... but it didn't change the Biblical principle that the only true God is the Father and Jesus Christ is not.

And by the way, the post regarding "God never change" is intended for ska57 who used John 1:1 to supposedly prove that God and Christ is allegedly one and the same person.

🙂

And again, for God and Christ "quality" thing, the Bible has this to say:

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” Philippians 2:6

The fact that the verse clearly states that He is “in the form of God” and “equal with God” is considered by many as a proof that Christ is God. But a closer inquiry reveals that the “form of God” spoken of in this verse could not have referred to God’s nature, for the simple biblical reason that God who is a spirit does not have the physical form that Christ has. Apostles spoke of Christ’s being in the form of God and of His “equality” with God because of the qualities that were given to Christ by God. Christ knew only too well that those divine qualities were only given to Him by God and that He will eventually subject Himself to God so that God who put everything under Christ may be all in all. This is written in Corinthians 15:27-28:

“For he ‘has put everything under his feet’. Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.” (NIV)

🙂

Originally posted by Morningstar
ok i think, having read all those post from Jury and some of the previous ones from Ytaker, id be very inclined to say that i think i agree with Ytaker on this issue . . . . . .
off the top of my head, John 10:30 (I think) Jesus says 'i and my father and one' . . . . . or something similar to that . . . . 🙂

Remember the title: Is God and Jesus the same person?

Ytaker is not pursuing such issue... He seems to visualize that Jesus is 'also" God... that's what I can see in his posts though he didn't directly says it all. I know he also believes that the Father is the ONLY true God... I don't know if he could admit that Christ, the Son of God is also and yet another God. 🙂

Anyway, regarding John 10:30... here:

“I and My Father are one”

Note that Christ did not say, “I and my Father are one God.” He did not say that He is the Father Himself. Neither did He say, “I am my Father.” If that is what He meant then they must be one in number. But are they one in number? Certainly not!

As far as number is concerned, Christ and the Father are two. That makes Christ’s judgment or decision true because He is not alone in making it; there are two of them: He and the Father (Jn. 8:16-18, Amplified Bible)

The Father is in heaven (Mt. 6:9, KJV); Christ was then on earth. How could Christ was then on earth be at the same time the Father who is in heaven? Even Christ is now in heaven, He is still distinguished from God – being the right hand of God (Ps. 80:17, Col. 3:1)

In saying that, “I and my Father are one,” did Christ mean to say He is God? What did Christ mean, therefore, by the phrase “I and my Father are one”? What was the context of Christ’s statement when He said, “I and my Father are one”? The preceding verses have the answer:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29, KJV)

Notice that Christ and God have something in common. That is, no one can pluck out of Christ’s and God’s hand the sheep given to Christ. Therefore, Christ and God are one IN TAKING CARE of Christ’s sheep, not one in nature or in being.

Thus, John 10:30 has been misinterpreted by some people to prove the claim that Christ is God.

I have posted this already. 🙂

for the sake of argument if they were the same person why would jesus ask "my god my god why have thou forsaken me" on the cross.

Precisely, fins. 🙄

And why would He pray to God when He is the God Himself? 🙂

for the sake of argument if they were the same person why would jesus ask "my god my god why have thou forsaken me" on the cross.

for the sake of argument if they were the same person why would jesus ask "my god my god why have thou forsaken me" on the cross.

Its kinda like water. There's water the ice, water the water, water the vapour and jabba the hut....wait, wrong forum... 😛 Water can take different forms and its still essentially the same thing, its just sorta different each time.

The answer is simply yes.

God is the spirit, the son, and the holy father.

It's in th bible stragiht out. no need to right paragraphs.

Jesus is part of the Holy trinity which consists of God (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit. As has been said, Jesus was both God and man. He was man filled completely with the Holy Spirit. He was sent to fulfill the law of Moses and usher in a new era for the followers of God. God loved the world so much, he gave his only begotten son to cleanse mankind of sin. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. And as Jesus said, no one will enter paradise without first coming through Him. Jesus was the embodiement of God on earth.

Go read your bible and you'll find numerous references to God the Father

Because Jesus was God taking a HUMAN form on earth. Jesus is God's son, but at the same time he is also God himself

He was sent to fulfill the law of Moses and usher in a new era for the followers of God

Originally posted by ninjaturtle
Because Jesus was God taking a HUMAN form on earth. Jesus is God's son, but at the same time he is also God himself.... trippy i know, but thats the way it is. Go read your bible and you'll find numerous references to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
In the Gospels, so much of the pharises' complaints about Jesus come from the fact that he is using God's authority to do Godly stuff like driving out demons. Indeed, no one BUT God has that kind of authority and power, and seeing that Jesus managed to do it, doesnt that show that he is God.... sounds like selective believing to me

I am a Christian. I do believe in God and Jesus Christ.
But sorry. there's nowhere in the Bible states that so. (God became human?) 🙂

The Bible didn't say that the one true God takes a human form and became Jesus. Never.

Why? Because God Himself proclaimed that He is God and not man. He wouldn't allow Himself to be both man ang God. And wouldn't allow any man to become God. God don't change and doesn't have the shadow of turning. That's what in the Bible... Not the God became human thing.

If there is... can you please show it?

Jesus is God's son, but at the same time he is also God himself....

And by the way.. do you know why Jesus can do such authorities like God's?... Didn't the Bible say that those authorities were given to Him by none other than God Himself?

🙂

well all ican say is we dont know the bible was written long time ago so we dont know makes u wonder......about life

Originally posted by Jury
I am a Christian. I do believe in God and Jesus Christ.
But sorry. there's nowhere in the Bible states that so. (God became human?) 🙂

The Bible didn't say that the one true God takes a human form and became Jesus. Never.

Why? Because God Himself proclaimed that He is God and not man. He wouldn't allow Himself to be both man ang God. And wouldn't allow any man to become God. God don't change and doesn't have the shadow of turning. That's what in the Bible... Not the God became human thing.

If there is... can you please show it?
And how can be the Father and the Son be both Gods?

And by the way.. do you know why Jesus can do such authorities like God's?... Didn't the Bible say that those authorities were [b]given to Him by none other than God Himself?

🙂 [/B]

Look at my posts, and you'll se that there are. Give what to man what is his, and to God what is his. I believe that there was a "kenosis" of God, where all the power of God, knowledge etc was emptied, making him a Human. I believe that he is God; you believe that he is a super prophet. Try Islam, they actually have a general belief of that.

I've stated verses that put him on the level of God, and as I said before, if you have the essence of a being, you are that being. Only God can forgive us, only he can die on the cross. That is part of his essence

You haven't done anything even close to disputing what I say. There are verses, and I've explained them. Your belief just cannot accept it.

Yes, how can a howling demon be the one who I value most in the world for her calm serenity and Love?

God cannot give himself to a being. He is infinite. He can only empty himself of infinity and go into a being.