You have some interesting points, and it is a big concept to get ones head around. I will ask some questions that might seem silly, but eh, so when Jesus was on earth, was there still, in essence, a separate entity that is "God", (I know God is said to be infinate and in all things, but is still it seems seperate from them) and didn't Jesus say something to God while on the cross about being forsaken by him? Was he in a way talking to himself? Does this have any relevance to the argument?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You have some interesting points, and it is a big concept to get ones head around. I will ask some questions that might seem silly, but eh, so when Jesus was on earth, was there still, in essence, a separate entity that is "God", (I know God is said to be infinate and in all things, but is still it seems seperate from them) and didn't Jesus say something to God while on the cross about being forsaken by him? Was he in a way talking to himself? Does this have any relevance to the argument?
Every word except Jury's has relevance to the argument.
Here’s how I expect that worked
God performed Kenosis (An emptying, the exact nature of which is for a different thread), and put his essence into a human. The human was limited, due to the requirements of the crucifixion. Some time later, Jesus and God reunited, when Jesus ascended.
Eli Eli Lama sabachthani, my God, my God, why have your forsaken me?
Literally it means, "God, God, abandon?" There have been numerous thoughts on this, but my guess is that in the height of his agony Jesus went slightly delirious (as shown by the fact that he reverted into his native language) and was filled with all the sin. He felt God's gaze avert (and the love he had always known), as God cannot look on Sin, and cried out the famous phrase on instinct. He had accepted it, but he briefly forgot what that meant. But, I cannot be sure. Just a guess.
This is simple if you think about it...LOL
God is the creator in Christian Faith.
Jesus is a simple and humble man, a Carpenter, a Prophet who was born to the Virgin Mary through the Creator who is God. He came down to save us from our Sins in the Christian Faith and on the third day rose from the dead and entered the Kingdom of Heaven.
Catholics do not see him as God, but as the son of God.
"Eli Eli Lama sabachthani, my God, my God, why have your forsaken me?
Literally it means, "God, God, abandon?" There have been numerous thoughts on this, but my guess is that in the height of his agony Jesus went slightly delirious (as shown by the fact that he reverted into his native language) and was filled with all the sin. He felt God's gaze avert (and the love he had always known), as God cannot look on Sin, and cried out the famous phrase on instinct. He had accepted it, but he briefly forgot what that meant. But, I cannot be sure. Just a guess."
Hey that was really cool - i never thought of that 😄 😛
Originally posted by Ytaker
Look at my posts, and you'll se that there are. Give what to man what is his, and to God what is his. I believe that there was a "kenosis" of God, where all the power of God, knowledge etc was emptied, making him a Human. I believe that he is God; you believe that he is a super prophet. Try Islam, they actually have a general belief of that.I've stated verses that put him on the level of God, and as I said before, if you have the essence of a being, you are that being. Only God can forgive us, only he can die on the cross. That is part of his essence
You haven't done anything even close to disputing what I say. There are verses, and I've explained them. Your belief just cannot accept it.
Yes, how can a howling demon be the one who I value most in the world for her calm serenity and Love?
God cannot give himself to a being. He is infinite. He can only empty himself of infinity and go into a being.
Remember again one thing... there are differences between Jesus and God... and those differences are pretty obvious.
Jesus Himself even claimed that He can do nothing without God.
Those "authorities" exercised by Jesus are all God-given.
Meaning those qualities are not inherent to Christ ... those are GIVEN to Him by God. Thus by saying:
"All authorities in heaven and in earth are given to me by my Father."
...simply means that Jesus Christ Himself is not powerful without God.
Again, there is only one God... and that is the Father in heaven. When we say it is the Father, definitely it is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.
🙂
The Bible, on the other hand, never claimed and/or proclaimed that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God... composes the one true God, etc.
But it's only the Father who is the one and only true God.
Not the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Regarding to God-given qualities to Christ, the Bible has this to say:
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the God head bodily." (Col. 2:9 ,KJV)
"Godhead" refers to the quality or attributes of God. God gave those qualities of God that dwell in Christ to Him. Jesus forgives our sins... because God made Him to do so.
"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'."
(Mt. 28:18, NIV)
"Which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church." (Eph. 1:20-22, NIV)
The numerous attributes that Christ possesses, all of which came from God, have led many to believe that Christ Himself is God. Jesus Christ remains different from God because all those attributes of God are God's inherently, while all those that are in Christ were just given to Him.
And, above all, the fact that God has attributes not found in Christ such as being immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful, untiring and never weary, prove that Christ is different from God and, hence, not God.
🙂
Even to worship Christ is God's commandment
Our Lord Jesus Christ accepts prayers because God made Him the Mediator between men and God...
That authority is not inherent in Christ Himself... but such authority was given to Him by God.
"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'." (Mt. 28:18, NIV)"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father." (Mt. 11:27, NKJV)
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phillip. 2:9-11, NKJV)
Therefore Jesus Christ should be worshipped - not because He is God, but because this is the commandment of God.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
Remember again one thing... there are differences between Jesus and God... and those differences are pretty obvious.Jesus Himself even claimed that He can do nothing without God.
Those "authorities" exercised by Jesus are all God-given.
Meaning those qualities are not inherent to Christ ... those are GIVEN to Him by God. Thus by saying:"All authorities in heaven and in earth are given to me by my Father."
...simply means that Jesus Christ Himself is not powerful without God.
Again, there is only one God... and that is the Father in heaven. When we say it is the Father, definitely it is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.
🙂
The Bible, on the other hand, never claimed and/or proclaimed that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God... composes the one true God, etc.
But it's only the Father who is the one and only true God.
Not the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
I've just had a thought. Not only God can forgive, only a God can forgive. If the power Jesus possessed rivals that of God, is equal to it in any way he wishes it, that would make him a God. The Holy Spirit would be a Demigod, due to his ability to surpass every other spirit in deed. So that would make our religon a polygamy.
Could you ever do anything without yourself? I explained this, Jesus performed Kenosis, which meant that the Godly might was in heaven where it belongs. He emptied himself of the emptied use of his abilities. I see I need to go in much greater depth for my theorum to be accepted as a theory. Lets go back in time, and see what scholars have said about this matter
Firstly, we have Benjamin Warfield at the end of the prior century, ascribing attributes to either his divine nature, or his human nature. When Jesus did something Godly, that was supposed be be part of his deity. When he did something that's finite, humanic, like crying, that's ascribed to his humanity. The problem was that you began to end up with a schizophrenic Jesus. You had to avoid putting him into two minds; a Jesus anthropic mind, a Christ Divine mind. It didn't work. So a new solution had to be made.
This solution was the idea of Kenosis. I can't remember, or I haven't been told who suggested this, but it has been the founding for most of the work in this field. It was probably inspired by Philippians 2 where Paul says that Jesus, being in the form of God, did not think equality with God was something to be exploited, or something like that. What did he empty himself of?
Was it the attributes of his Godhood? I can't see that working, because if you have a creature looks like a dog, smells like a dog, acts in general like a Dog, then you have a Dog. If anything has any one of them, then it is most likely a Dog. I'm not sure how a being could not have the attributes of God, but be God. Could a dolphin like creature be a tree?
Some people say that he self limited himself, that he restricted the use of his power. But some things only God can do. If it has leaves and a trunk, it is a tree. If it can forgive and add a new deegre of realtionship with God (he calls God "abba" and invites his disciples to use that word too. It means approxamately "father dearest", a term never used before by a Jew)
Then you get back to mine. Jesus was part of God before, and since he trusted him, would allow the one with the greater knowledge and vision make the desicions of what was the right course. He was limited in order to take sins, but had an inimate connection with God that gave him some power. Whilst he was there, he could be a solution, and so healed and forgave a ton of people. He was a part of the one true God. His light to the world. God has always been intimate with humanity, and through Jesus we can reach him. But you cannot reach a being like that unless something can both bridge an infinite gap, and be small enough to understand.
Originally posted by eleveninches
Why do you keep referring to the bible as if it is fact.
If you only believe that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible, isn't that a rather circular argument.?
We are having a theological argument. It has a basis in the bible, which we believe is the word of God. It's like arguing what Lord of the Flies shows about courage; the book is good enough to be an example of the truth outside. We believe that William Golding’s word is the word of a master because it’s a brilliant read.
Originally posted by Jury
[b]Even to worship Christ is God's commandmentOur Lord Jesus Christ accepts prayers because God made Him the Mediator between men and God...
That authority is not inherent in Christ Himself... but such authority was given to Him by God.
It is the same as to worship Christ. It is God's will that the Lord Jesus Christ be worshipped for such brings glory to Him. The Almighty commanded that every knee should bow at the name of Jesus. Who are we to refuse such commandment? And why should our Lord Jesus rebuke us for worshipping Him when it is our God's commandment?
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phillip. 2:9-11, NKJV)
Therefore Jesus Christ should be worshipped - not because He is God, but because this is the commandment of God.
🙂 [/B]
Only a God should be worshiped. No false idols. Unfortunately for people like you 😈, our religon isn't a Polygamy. We don't bow our knees at the ten commandmants, but we do at any God. Be told.
Originally posted by Jury
Regarding to God-given qualities to Christ, the Bible has this to say:[b]"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the God head bodily." (Col. 2:9 ,KJV)
"Godhead" refers to the quality or attributes of God. God gave those qualities of God that dwell in Christ to Him. Jesus forgives our sins... because God made Him to do so.
"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'."
(Mt. 28:18, NIV)"Which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church." (Eph. 1:20-22, NIV)
The numerous attributes that Christ possesses, all of which came from God, have led many to believe that Christ Himself is God. Jesus Christ remains different from God because all those attributes of God are God's inherently, while all those that are in Christ were just given to Him.
And, above all, the fact that God has attributes not found in Christ such as being immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful, untiring and never weary, prove that Christ is different from God and, hence, not God.
🙂 [/B]
What right does God have to send another to die on the cross? It was a choice. Only God has the right to make the choice to give his life. Just like a guy diving in front of the president to take a bullet. Only he can make the desition, and not be evil.
Christ as a human is that. God solved a task by becoming human. But still, look at the examples where Jesus was weak. Take where he cursed the Fig tree. One could easily see that as a reference to the fruit Israil owed God. An acted out parable. Jesus never showed any weakness unless it was unavoidable, or for his faith. Plus he was omniscient sometimes. He read the pharisee's minds after healing the guy with bad legs who came through the roof. He predicted the fall of the temple in Mark 13 1-2, which happened in 70 AD.
Originally posted by Jury
Remember also that Jesus Christ once revealed that He didn't know when the Day of Judgment would really come, for no one knows except God. If He is the God Himself, do you think, He would proclaim such thing?And what I am saying here is obviously Biblical. 🙂 Not just personal interpretation.
I'd have to take it in Context. I need a bible verse.