In the playoffs, Walker and Williams did just as much or less then Jefferson and Kidd, but during the regular season, Bill Walton could have done better than all the Miami Role players, which means Wade has too do more work. Wade carried the team to a 2nd seed. Carter more help from Kidd and Jefferson and carried his team to a 3rd seed.
Originally posted by DanZeke25
In the playoffs, Walker and Williams did just as much or less then Jefferson and Kidd, but during the regular season, Bill Walton could have done better than all the Miami Role players, which means Wade has too do more work. Wade carried the team to a 2nd seed. Carter more help from Kidd and Jefferson and carried his team to a 3rd seed.
ok... so lets c....
carter=wade
jefferson=walker
williams=kidd
shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>collins, krstic
alonzo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>krstic, collins
haslem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>collins, murray, krstic
miami's other 3 point shooter off the bench( forgot his name)..u know who im talking about>>>>>>>>>>>lamond murray, krstic.
Originally posted by DanZeke25
In the playoffs, Walker and Williams did just as much or less then Jefferson and Kidd, but during the regular season, Bill Walton could have done better than all the Miami Role players, which means Wade has too do more work. Wade carried the team to a 2nd seed. Carter more help from Kidd and Jefferson and carried his team to a 3rd seed.
i will have to repeat myself by saying....vince gets very little help from kidd and jefferson or any other player on his team when it comes to providing by himself, or them making atleast 4 of the 10-12 open jumpers vince gets them every game...i have stated many times that most of vince's scoring is done on ISO PLAYS whereas wade's teammates made many and most of their open jumpers off of him, especially walker and haslem.
Originally posted by tanjot
those are not my thoughts...they're dans, he said that walker and williams played just as good as jefferson and kidd in the second round...i stated the rest of the facts which were very obvious.
No no no. You were saying that Kidd and Jefferson barely did anything to help Carter, and that Williams and Walker did a lot to help Wade. And I said that you were wrong, Kidd and Jefferson did a lot, and that, if anything, Walker and Williams did just as much, which is a stretch.
I said, Walker and Williams did just as much OR LESS.
Originally posted by DanZeke25
No no no. You were saying that Kidd and Jefferson barely did anything to help Carter, and that Williams and Walker did a lot to help Wade. And I said that you were wrong, Kidd and Jefferson did a lot, and that, if anything, Walker and Williams did just as much, which is a stretch.I said, Walker and Williams did just as much OR LESS.
if u watch any nets vs miami game in the second round or season over again...u will see that the most assists kidd or jefferson will give carter is about 4....which doesn't average up to a 38.5ppg average against miami during the season and a 30ppg average during the playoffs, plus vince dishes out many open looks and i will not repeat myself by saying this....miami's role players were providing MUCH MUCH more than the nets role players. having watched that series it blows my mind how you can still argue that. i see that you are a heat fan, but now im going to sound like gm and say that u r an idiot to think that the nets role players provided anythign and that vince is nothing without j-kidd and rj.
Game 1, Jason Kidd was 1 assist and 3 rebounds away from a Triple Double. Jefferson had 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 6 assists. No Miami role players were close to that.
Game 2, again, Nets role players were better, but Wade did better than Carter, and Heat win.
Game 3. Kidd, 10 points, 12 assists, 8 rebounds. Jefferson didn't do much, 17 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, but Carter also had 43 that game. Heat still won.
Game 4. This time Miami Role Players did somethibg. Haslem 20 points 11 rebounds, and Walker had 20 points. Butt Kidd had a triple double, 17 points, 12 rebounds, 13 assists. Kristic had 20 points, 14 rebounds. Jefferson had 17 points. Heat won again.
Game 5. Kidd, 20 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds. Jefferson, 33 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, which is the same thing Carter had. This game Walker had 23 points.
Originally posted by tanjot
that vince is nothing without j-kidd and rj.
I don't think anybody is saying that Vince is nothing without Kidd and RJ. In fact, I'm quite sure everybody here AGREES that Vince Carter is a very good player. One of the best in the league in fact. And I personally do think that the Heat does overall have a good supporting cast. But that does not mean that Vince does not. Kidd pushes the ball well and even if he doesn't directly get the assists to Carter, he does leave his mark on the flow of a game which DOES help Carter. Much like how Shaq and Duncan have an influence on the game even if statistically it doesn't show. RJ also helps Carter simply by being on the floor. He is an offensive threat and every team in the league knows that. That puts more pressure on the defense.
Now, am I crediting Kidd and RJ with how well Carter plays? No. But they do help. Would Carter get more assists if his team made a higher % of their open jump shots? Of course, but the same goes with any other star in the NBA.
Lets not forget that both Kidd and RJ are very good defenders to, Kidd made the defensive 1st team this year and RJ does a great job at keeping his assignment in front of him.
As usual offense is the only thing looked at here, but i guess thats not surprising when your favourite player is Carter.
Honestly tanjot, Carter is doing what star players are meant to do. Create easy looks for their teammates, lots of players do that LeBron, Kobe (as much as you'd like to ignore it), Wade, KG, Duncan and obviously PG's like Nash and Kidd are some examples. Why make such a big deal about Carter doing his job?
Originally posted by DanZeke25
Game 1, Jason Kidd was 1 assist and 3 rebounds away from a Triple Double. Jefferson had 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 6 assists. No Miami role players were close to that.Game 2, again, Nets role players were better, but Wade did better than Carter, and Heat win.
Game 3. Kidd, 10 points, 12 assists, 8 rebounds. Jefferson didn't do much, 17 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, but Carter also had 43 that game. Heat still won.
Game 4. This time Miami Role Players did somethibg. Haslem 20 points 11 rebounds, and Walker had 20 points. Butt Kidd had a triple double, 17 points, 12 rebounds, 13 assists. Kristic had 20 points, 14 rebounds. Jefferson had 17 points. Heat won again.
Game 5. Kidd, 20 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds. Jefferson, 33 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, which is the same thing Carter had. This game Walker had 23 points.
LOL. U C...U LEFT OUT THE ROLE PLAYERS IN GAME 3. do not always try to make it seem as you right. udonis haslem and antonie walker still provided a lot for miami in game 3 along with alonzo and jason williams...much more than the nets role players at least. all open jumpers off shaq and wade, mostly wade. while in the same game nenad krstic scored what...2 points?? and the same for jason collins who is never an offensive threat, the nets bench provided absolutely nothing and the heat bench did. thats the way it was for the rest of the series....heat role players providing big time and the nets role players providing absolutely nothing.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Lets not forget that both Kidd and RJ are very good defenders to, Kidd made the defensive 1st team this year and RJ does a great job at keeping his assignment in front of him.
As usual offense is the only thing looked at here, but i guess thats not surprising when your favourite player is Carter.
Honestly tanjot, Carter is doing what star players are meant to do. Create easy looks for their teammates, lots of players do that LeBron, Kobe (as much as you'd like to ignore it), Wade, KG, Duncan and obviously PG's like Nash and Kidd are some examples. Why make such a big deal about Carter doing his job?
im not making a big deal out of it...im just making a point regarding the nets role players and referring to dan's wade statistics compared to carter's when it comes to assists, and the obvious reason vince's are lower and could be much higher. now i dont expect the nets role players to make all their open jumpers...but when ur in the nba, u should make at least 40% of your open looks, and nenad and lamond, well they made about 20% or less of theirs, which mostly came off vince. yeah...j-kidd and rj help vince, im not denying that, but what im denying is the things where leo rautins ( team canada coach ) is alongside chuck swirsky at a nets @ raps game and says that jason kidd is the key to vince carter's success and highly discredits vince....he'll say..." vince is not beign agressive in this game, only 4 trips to the foul line" while vince shoots over 50% and burns his old team with 42 including the gamewinning 3 at the buzzer. everyone here remembers vince's first season as a net, was rj there??? no....and vince averaged more points that season than he did this season. now you are going to say j-kidd was there..so what are you going to tell me, he tosses vince 15 alley's a game??? he helps him by providing support and making his open jumpers, j-kidd may be the verbal leader and may be better at encouraging others to do their job by getting in their face, but that only goes so far. vince's job is to lead by example...and he has done so. i just do not think vince gets the credit he deserves. i am in no way discrediting rj or j-kidd, they play great basketball....but not nearly as well as vince as goes for the rest of the heat players besides shaq compared to wade. wade gets all the credit he deserves...so should vince. you cannot call someone a warrior because they drive to the rack all day and keep falling to the ground on fouls or making tough shots, you can for playing a great game no matter how they do it.....and you cannot call someone soft for regaining his status as the human highlight reel and playing better than ever, even if you hate him that much.
Originally posted by tanjot
LOL. U C...U LEFT OUT THE ROLE PLAYERS IN GAME 3. do not always try to make it seem as you right. udonis haslem and antonie walker still provided a lot for miami in game 3 along with alonzo and jason williams...much more than the nets role players at least. all open jumpers off shaq and wade, mostly wade. while in the same game nenad krstic scored what...2 points?? and the same for jason collins who is never an offensive threat, the nets bench provided absolutely nothing and the heat bench did. thats the way it was for the rest of the series....heat role players providing big time and the nets role players providing absolutely nothing.
Read the stats I posted dude. Jefferson and Kidd have been doing ALOT more then Walker and Williams. So WTF are you talking about saying the Nets role players provide absolutley nothing.
Originally posted by tanjot
im not making a big deal out of it...im just making a point regarding the nets role players and referring to dan's wade statistics compared to carter's when it comes to assists, and the obvious reason vince's are lower and could be much higher. now i dont expect the nets role players to make all their open jumpers...but when ur in the nba, u should make at least 40% of your open looks, and nenad and lamond, well they made about 20% or less of theirs, which mostly came off vince.
I could use the same excuse for Kobe and why he didnt have over 10 assists a game. But thats reality for you, sometimes you dont have great shooters on your team. Sometimes you do and they still miss.
yeah...j-kidd and rj help vince, im not denying that, but what im denying is the things where leo rautins ( team canada coach ) is alongside chuck swirsky at a nets @ raps game and says that jason kidd is the key to vince carter's success and highly discredits vince....he'll say..." vince is not beign agressive in this game, only 4 trips to the foul line" while vince shoots over 50% and burns his old team with 42 including the gamewinning 3 at the buzzer.
Ok im not sure what this has to do with anything other than prove that commentators are biased sometimes. You honestly cant expect a Canadian coach to be teabagging Vince after what he pulled in Toronto. Have a listen to Tim Legler on BSPN talk about Kobe sometime, he is right up there with yourself in terms of blind hate.
everyone here remembers vince's first season as a net, was rj there??? no....and vince averaged more points that season than he did this season. now you are going to say j-kidd was there..so what are you going to tell me, he tosses vince 15 alley's a game??? he helps him by providing support and making his open jumpers, j-kidd may be the verbal leader and may be better at encouraging others to do their job by getting in their face, but that only goes so far. vince's job is to lead by example...and he has done so.
Obviously he would have to score more pts with RJ out, you are missing 20+pts a game. 15 alleys? Come on man Kidd does more that just throw lobs, its just that those passes end up on SportsCenter. Kidd is a great open court passer but he also excels in the half court sets.
i just do not think vince gets the credit he deserves. i am in no way discrediting rj or j-kidd, they play great basketball....but not nearly as well as vince as goes for the rest of the heat players besides shaq compared to wade. wade gets all the credit he deserves...so should vince. you cannot call someone a warrior because they drive to the rack all day and keep falling to the ground on fouls or making tough shots, you can for playing a great game no matter how they do it.....and you cannot call someone soft for regaining his status as the human highlight reel and playing better than ever, even if you hate him that much.
Alot of Wades credit is due to the media hype, i wouldnt call him a warrior because he falls down all time those sound like Mike Breen's words. Wade is getting the reputation for being a warrior and playing through injuries because he lies on the ground for 5 minutes and then plays on while limping around dramatically. Real NBA warriors dont make their injuries obvious because they dont want to show any weakness to their opponent. MJ, Iverson, Bird, Kobe, Magic, Zeke and Garnett are prime examples. Wade having to be stretchered to his pre game interview in the Finals just reeks of BSPN drama to me.
Also if you were referring to me with your last line, i dont hate Vince at all. I've said many times that he is a great player and one of the top dunkers in the league at the moment imo, you are just going to have to come to terms with the fact that not everyone rates him as highly as you do. Which is their right.
Originally posted by DanZeke25
Read the stats I posted dude. Jefferson and Kidd have been doing ALOT more then Walker and Williams. So WTF are you talking about saying the Nets role players provide absolutley nothing.
ok...by role players i meant the ones besides the big three which i have already stated.
Originally posted by koolruningz
I could use the same excuse for Kobe and why he didnt have over 10 assists a game. But thats reality for you, sometimes you dont have great shooters on your team. Sometimes you do and they still miss.Ok im not sure what this has to do with anything other than prove that commentators are biased sometimes. You honestly cant expect a Canadian coach to be teabagging Vince after what he pulled in Toronto. Have a listen to Tim Legler on BSPN talk about Kobe sometime, he is right up there with yourself in terms of blind hate.
Obviously he would have to score more pts with RJ out, you are missing 20+pts a game. 15 alleys? Come on man Kidd does more that just throw lobs, its just that those passes end up on SportsCenter. Kidd is a great open court passer but he also excels in the half court sets.
Alot of Wades credit is due to the media hype, i wouldnt call him a warrior because he falls down all time those sound like Mike Breen's words. Wade is getting the reputation for being a warrior and playing through injuries because he lies on the ground for 5 minutes and then plays on while limping around dramatically. Real NBA warriors dont make their injuries obvious because they dont want to show any weakness to their opponent. MJ, Iverson, Bird, Kobe, Magic, Zeke and Garnett are prime examples. Wade having to be stretchered to his pre game interview in the Finals just reeks of BSPN drama to me.
Also if you were referring to me with your last line, i dont hate Vince at all. I've said many times that he is a great player and one of the top dunkers in the league at the moment imo, you are just going to have to come to terms with the fact that not everyone rates him as highly as you do. Which is their right.
not saying they should...but be reasonable, agree with me on something...anything. the main reason im stressing the facts about the role players (besides the big three) is because its so obvious they did pretty much nothing in the second round against miami, and yet dan denies that.