Should I forgive Germany?

Originally posted by soleran30
What are you taking about this MORE stuff........the Jewish didn't gather arms and attack the Germans........the Jewish were victims of the them!
Indians gathered Arms and Attacked settlers.........

OMG one group (American Indians) deafeted army
Another group (holocaust) victims of the regime

in the end Indians also became a victim but once again I am stating that holocaust victims didn't raise arms and battle they were dragged into this

You're saying that the settlers were justified in systematic extermination of a population of indigenous people because the indigenous people fought back against trespassers who were misappropriating their land and resources.

Here I'll post the questions again:
Is it justified for settlers to slaughter and marginalise a population of indigenous people in order to expand their territorial wealth? Is it justified to commit what by modern terms would be considered crimes against humanity in order to gain land from indigenous people?

A yes or no answer will do.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I said "more" because I'm sure there were some who resisted the Nazi regime.

Indeed, there were several. But, when they take place in a ghetto, with walls around it, it was doomed to failure.

I never once said settlers were justified in the extermination of an indigenous people......so please reread my post.

You are simply making it look as though Indians were victims the entire time.......they were not.

Holocaust Victims were the entire time.

You cannot compare modern times with these two pieces for your black and white discussion........
If you would like however I can show you pieces where Indians killed each other over land and growth.

So please you tell me Xmarks the Spot I have made my point abbundantly clear what is your point?
Don't ask me to say it for you by asking me questions

So you aren't trying to justify the settlers' slaughtering of the indigenous people as part of some kind of right as a conquering army... could've fooled me.

If you can't answer the questions then just say so. But they're pretty simple questions.

Originally posted by soleran30
You are simply making it look as though Indians were victims the entire time.......they were not.

Holocaust Victims were the entire time.

you are simply warping concepts to win your arguement.

"the entire time" that natives were being slaughtered, they were victims, same as the jews.

Do you know that The Treaty of Paris 1783 after the Revolutionary war the British signed over Lands belonging to the Indians to the Americans at that point without consulting them?

Huh what ........the Indians not only fought the Settlers independantly but also with the British.........It was not until later on that the indians being seperated by so many tribes had to succumb to the US because they had never united.

So my point is its not just like the Settlers woke up one morning and said "Hey Ma' I am going to forgo my farming duties today grab my gun gather my neighbors and sweep across this land like a fire today cuz there are Indians here"

In Germany they did gather their guns and swept across the nation

Originally posted by soleran30
Do you know that The Treaty of Paris 1783 after the Revolutionary war the British signed over Lands belonging to the Indians to the Americans at that point without consulting them?

Huh what ........the Indians not only fought the Settlers independantly but also with the British.........It was not until later on that the indians being seperated by so many tribes had to succumb to the US because they had never united.

So my point is its not just like the Settlers woke up one morning and said "Hey Ma' I am going to forgo my farming duties today grab my gun gather my neighbors and sweep across this land like a fire today cuz there are Indians here"

In Germany they did gather their guns and swept across the nation

Ever heard of the French and Indian war?

beyond that, Britain signing over lands to teh Americans would prove nothing....neither consulted teh indeginous peoples before they claimed rights over their property. Neither "Americans", nor the British, were innocent.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Ever heard of the French and Indian war?

beyond that, Britain signing over lands to teh Americans would prove nothing....neither consulted teh indeginous peoples before they claimed rights over their property. Neither "Americans", nor the British, were innocent.

Yes I have heard of the French and Indian War.

And thank you for pointing that out......because the Indians were signed up with the French predominantly and lost the war........

So I am not giving absolution to any group but ONCE again I am forced to take this back to topic.....

The Indians went to war for many years with many countries and FOUGHT ALOT in a rather short time

Holocaust victims were picked up without even knowing what / who was going on

Sorry to come in on the middle of a debate, but there are some statements that I'd like to counter.

Originally posted by soleran30

Did Caesar let crushed enemies live with him.....as a slave

Uhmm.... not quite. This blanket statement shows that you really have Little knowledge of ancient Rome and Giaus Julius Caesar in particular. (That is the Caesar I assume of which you speak as there were many afterward). Or, that you may have knowledge of this subject but choose to ignore it to make a point.

Originally posted by soleran30
Did Egypt let crushed enemies live with them.......as a slave
How about Ghengis Khan and the mongols........nope killed them all

Are you comparing the social and political structure of early america with th major ancient dynasties of Egypt and the despotic rule of the Khans? If so, your point is MOOT.

Originally posted by soleran30
What did American Indians do with a defeated captured tribe? I will tell you they sure as hell didn't say stay where you are and live off what you can.....guess what the defeated tribe......you guessed it SLAVE or Killed

Wow, wrong again sporto. Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that most Indigenous Native American Cultures were small scale and not capable of wiping out entire nations. Also these small scale warrior tribes did not war (for the most part) of land or riches because until we arrived this concept was alien to them. They warred over disputes and for the glory of it. Now follow this, in a small scale warrior culture, you do not wipe out your entire enemy as that will leave you no one to fight in the next season and negate the possibility of achieving combative honours in the future.

Also, many defeated people who were abducted were often adopted into the tribe. I am not saying that torture or interment into slavery did not happen, but no where on the scale you seem to propose.

Originally posted by soleran30

in the end Indians also became a victim but once again I am stating that holocaust victims didn't raise arms and battle they were dragged into this

So the ability or attempt to defend yourself against mass genocide dictates what is or what is not a holocaust? Wrong, a holocaust is a massive slaughter, like in Cambodia, Germany and yes, North America.

Originally posted by soleran30
So Xmarks the Spot are you saying that it was OK at that time for the American Indians to attack a small European group that was trying to settle a new land?

The land was not new, in fact it was a couple of billions of years old and inhabited by people for a few thousand years. If some guy walks into your house and tells you, "tough luck boy, this is now MY house", what would you do?

Originally posted by soleran30
OMG one group (American Indians) deafeted army
Another group (holocaust) victims of the regime

At what point did the american natives defeat the U.S. Army? Sure they had victories, but defeat the army?

Originally posted by soleran30
in the end Indians also became a victim but once again I am stating that holocaust victims didn't raise arms and battle they were dragged into this

Natives were victims in the beginning, they were subjugated, taken advantage of and killed from th beginning. Did you attend one single history class ever?

Originally posted by FeceMan
No, because disease was not used as a weapon and the bows the Indians used were far superior to the arms the settlers used.

Yes diseased was used as a weapon. The american government often knowingly exposed native peoples to people and items, such as blankets, that carried smallpox. Rancid maggot-infested food was also given to native while on reservations. And you do know that the whole idea of a mass buffalo hunt was to exterminate the plains culture don't you.

As for bows being superior to guns and metal weapons, there is a reason why native coveted guns, there is also a reason why soldiers are not hurling war clubs and arrows at each other anymore, guns are more effective.

Wow, I'm out of breath! 😑

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Wow, I'm out of breath! 😑

Better you than me, this time.

Once again let me say INDIANS decalred war on the USA they were a defeated culture supposedly with the Treaty of Paris........
they chose to fight on and not move on they were given a choice........
Hel@ they even chose the British Kharma

So please even though as I said much earlier in this conversation the Indians chose to fight and fight and fight until they could not fight any more then they asked to be helped..........

There were significant cultural differences so back to what I said previously........

German Holocaust was different then the American Indians.......the result sucked however VERY DIFFERENT

Originally posted by soleran30
Once again let me say INDIANS decalred war on the USA they were a defeated culture supposedly with the Treaty of Paris........
they chose to fight on and not move on they were given a choice........
Hel@ they even chose the British Kharma

So please even though as I said much earlier in this conversation the Indians chose to fight and fight and fight until they could not fight any more then they asked to be helped..........

There were significant cultural differences so back to what I said previously........

German Holocaust was different then the American Indians.......the result sucked however VERY DIFFERENT

Well of course they choice to fight, there lands were being taken by other people. Fighting back against people invading your country does not make the invasion any better you know.

no, the native americans defended their land from invasion.
you operate under the assumption that they should have bowed
down and submitted at the site of westerners and said "oh PLEASE
take our land!" and since they didnt, they deserved to have their
buffalo hunted to near extinction with the intention of starving every
indian man woman and child to death.

what a weak and flawed arguement.
maybe i should test that theory, and just walk in your house,
sit my ass on your lazy-boy chair, kick my feet up, and declare your home
mine, because i "discovered" it, and "im bigger than you". and if you protest in any way, you would be deserving of harsh action.

now get me a beer slave

Originally posted by soleran30
Once again let me say INDIANS decalred war on the USA they were a defeated culture supposedly with the Treaty of Paris........
they chose to fight on and not move on they were given a choice........
Hel@ they even chose the British Kharma

You do know that there are a couple of hundred native tribes right? You also know that that the american government put the nations allied to them on the same reservations as the "hostiles"?

Your knowledge of history is lacking, your reasoning is even worse.

Originally posted by soleran30
So please even though as I said much earlier in this conversation the Indians chose to fight and fight and fight until they could not fight any more then they asked to be helped..........

The Indians were forced to fight, they did not ask for help, they asked to be left the f*ck alone.

Originally posted by soleran30

German Holocaust was different then the American Indians.......the result sucked however VERY DIFFERENT

With that I agree, however, the misinformation that you are spewing regarding Caesar, the historical relationship of settlers and the american gov't with native cultures and your general historical knowledge is too much to leave unchecked.

Originally posted by PVS
no, the native americans defended their land from invasion.
you operate under the assumption that they should have bowed
down and submitted at the site of westerners and said "oh PLEASE
take our land!" and since they didnt, they deserved to have their
buffalo hunted to near extinction with the intention of starving every
indian man woman and child to death.

what a weak and flawed arguement.
maybe i should test that theory, and just walk in your house,
sit my ass on your lazy-boy chair, kick my feet up, and declare your home
mine, because i "discovered" it, and "im bigger than you". and if you protest in any way, you would be deserving of harsh action.

now get me a beer slave

Make sure you take a flag with you.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Make sure you take a flag with you.

ah yes. cant forget the flag.

and cant forget to make up a 'legal' document declaring me the new owner.
*gets pen and paper* will you sign it too? i need a witness

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I don´t see any US Indians claiming compensation or pointing the finger for the 60 MILLION of thier race which were killed by the invading europeans!! Or india or Africa having a crack at GB for the massacres which happened there, in fact the British regiments celebrate the battles won.

And finally here is the quote I was referring to about the American Indians........

I certainly am not trying to put Bicnarok on the spot just that I pointed out the American Indians went to WAR with the Settlers.

Americans didn't just integrate them into our society and then butcher them, mostly we wanted to stay away from them........

My point somply regarding the last piece of his post Indians were invaded and lost over a LONG period of time compared to holocaust what 100-150 years probably even longer

you continue to use this weak and flawed mentallity.

think about it. "settlers" are INVADERS. by your logic, we can say that nazis didnt invade poland, they simply 'settled' there. funny how terminology and definition change, depending on who is marching on someone else's land and planting a flag 😬

Originally posted by PVS
ah yes. cant forget the flag.

and cant forget to make up a 'legal' document declaring me the new owner.
*gets pen and paper* will you sign it too? i need a witness

Sure, I'll witness it. But, only as long as it sets out our plans to externimate anyone who lived in the house, when you got there.

Originally posted by soleran30
And finally here is the quote I was referring to about the American Indians........

I certainly am not trying to put Bicnarok on the spot just that I pointed out the American Indians went to WAR with the Settlers.

Americans didn't just integrate them into our society and then butcher them, mostly we wanted to stay away from them........

My point somply regarding the last piece of his post Indians were invaded and lost over a LONG period of time compared to holocaust what 100-150 years probably even longer

Look, you can't keep saying that war justifies genocide. Otherwise, you'll upset Whirly.

Your logic is so f**ked up! So, you're saying that because the natives fought back, they were in a very real sense, stating that all is fair in love and war? And if you participate in a fight, then you should expect to be wiped out? Where the hell did you get this idea?