Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Oh... why is there a sudden (relative) upsurge in threads about homosexuality?
Because Whirly started lying about what people said...and tried to get sympathy for being a gypsy, which just happens to be one of the dozen different racial/religious/sexual preferences/political differences the Nazis decided to toss into ovens. Whirly accused Bardock of saying teh holocaust was justified, which was a lie. Whirtly accused me of being a racist, which was a lie. Whirly accused me of sayiing that being "gay is a race", which again, is a lie. So, now he's acting like a child throwing a tantrum, and starting threads to...I dunno, get even or something.
So, it went: "Holocaust" thread > "should I forgive Germany" thread > "Is being gay the same as being an ethnic minority" thread. If you read those threads(which I woldn't do unless I was involved) in that order, you see where Whirly quickly descended into insanity and ignorance.
Distinguishing different 'types' of minority in the way suggested is intellectually void. It doesn't matter what the cause of your minority status is; the concept is identical. Be persecuted for being Asian, for being French, for being a Hindu, or for being bisexual, it doesn't matter.
Whirly says his sexual orientation does not define him but his race does. Bully for him. Some people, however, DO see themselves as defined by their orientation and could not give a toss about their country of birth or race.
Don't make the mistake of thinking your own narrow experiences are universal truth.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Distinguishing different 'types' of minority in the way suggested is intellectually void. It doesn't matter what the cause of your minority status is; the concept is identical. Be persecuted for being Asian, for being French, for being a Hindu, or for being bisexual, it doesn't matter.Whirly says his sexual orientation does not define him but his race does. Bully for him. Some people, however, DO see themselves as defined by their orientation and could not give a toss about their country of birth or race.
Don't make the mistake of thinking your own narrow experiences are universal truth.
That's basically what I said to him in the holocaust thread. But, I still want him (Whirly) to point out to me where I said 'gay' was a race.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Because Whirly started lying about what people said...and tried to get sympathy for being a gypsy, which just happens to be one of the dozen different racial/religious/sexual preferences/political differences the Nazis decided to toss into ovens. Whirly accused Bardock of saying teh holocaust was justified, which was a lie. Whirtly accused me of being a racist, which was a lie. Whirly accused me of sayiing that being "gay is a race", which again, is a lie. So, now he's acting like a child throwing a tantrum, and starting threads to...I dunno, get even or something.So, it went: "Holocaust" thread > "should I forgive Germany" thread > "Is being gay the same as being an ethnic minority" thread. If you read those threads(which I woldn't do unless I was involved) in that order, you see where Whirly quickly descended into insanity and ignorance.
I said you implied it was the same here - whose lying?
[QUOTE=5041738]Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
[B]As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I said you implied it was the same here - whose lying?[QUOTE=5041738]Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
[B]As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.
I replaced your "gypsy" with my "gay man". How does that imply that "gay is a race"? If I had replaced it with "Jehovahs Witnesses" it would still have applied...unless you also think that that is a race.
It was a DIRECT word for word quote from your post. Your assumption is symantics.
Who's lying? It's still you.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I replaced your "gypsy" with my "gay man". How does that imply that "gay is a race"? If I had replaced it with "Jehovahs Witnesses" it would still have applied...unless you also think that that is a race.Who's lying? It's still you.
Perhaps it is your lack of clarity in the above sentence structure that caused a misunderstanding. I am willing to concede you might not be a racist having read some of your posts, however you are also guilty of making spurious judgements without the full facts.
If you are not a racist - why did you challenge me on something as pitiful as my own ethnicity due to an English variant of spelling?
This is the post of Bardocks that got my goat.
Originally posted by Bardock42
There are different approaches.....By Law it can be justified.......by morals it can too...it actually goes either way....since I believe there is no superior force that lays down morals on us...one can actually say from some point of views the Holocaust was justified.....
The old following orders, history written by winners concept applied to my people by a descendant of those that carried it out - it went downhill from here.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Where in there does he state or imply that "homosexuality is an ethnicity"? 😕
Whirly stated:
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
As a romany, I would point out it was not just jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned in soap.
To which I responded:
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.
I removed his "gypsy" and replaced it with "gay man" to point out that there are dozens of groups that could be substituted for his particualr racial group.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Whirly stated:To which I responded:
I removed his "gypsy" and replaced it with "gay man" to point out that there are dozens of groups that could be substituted for his particualr racial group.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I replaced your "gypsy" with my "gay man". How does that imply that "gay is a race"? If I had replaced it with "Jehovahs Witnesses" it would still have applied...unless you also think that that is a race.Who's lying? It's still you.
Perhaps it is your lack of clarity in the above sentence structure that caused a misunderstanding. I am willing to concede you might not be a racist having read some of your posts, however you are also guilty of making spurious judgements without the full facts.
If you are not a racist - why did you challenge me on something as pitiful as my own ethnicity due to an English variant of spelling?
This is the post of Bardocks that got my goat.
Originally posted by Bardock42
There are different approaches.....By Law it can be justified.......by morals it can too...it actually goes either way....since I believe there is no superior force that lays down morals on us...one can actually say from some point of views the Holocaust was justified.....
The old following orders, history written by winners concept applied to my people by a descendant of those that carried it out - it went downhill from here.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
The old following orders, history written by winners concept applied to my people by a descendant of those that carried it out - it went downhill from here.
Bardock was actually expressing a belief that there is no such thing as 'justified' in the way you take it to mean. He is making out that man justifies his own actions, and that there is no such thing as a central moral core to base that on.
I very much doubt whether he actually THINKS it was justified, just that there is no external force that dictates that people should nto do so. This is simply subjective morality. I don't believe in that- I believe morals are objective- but he was in no way saying that the Holocaust was right. Simply that the Nazis justified it.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
If you are not a racist - why did you challenge me on something as pitiful as my own ethnicity due to an English variant of spelling?
If I was a racist, I would have said that your people deserved what they got. Never did that.
I wasn't questioning your herritage, I was questioning your intelligence. ( Which isn't unreasonable, when you start a thread asking people if YOU, personally, shold forgive the whole of the german nation )
And, if you want to get into it, your search results returned, what?...220,000 matches, using your spelling. Mine retured over 3 million. But, thats just symantics. Even the page you referenced in your own posts didn't spell it the way you did.
Like I said, I never questioned your ethnicity.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Bardock was actually expressing a belief that there is no such thing as 'justified' in the way you take it to mean. He is making out that man justifies his own actions, and that there is no such thing as a central moral core to base that on.I very much doubt whether he actually THINKS it was justified, just that there is no external force that dictates that people should nto do so. This is simply subjective morality. I don't believe in that- I believe morals are objective- but he was in no way saying that the Holocaust was right. Simply that the Nazis justified it.
I agree and think it was an illjudged thing to do, I consider it a flame as Bardock does know my ethnicity unlike Captain Fantastic. Although I doubt very much Bardock considered me when he made this comment. I also doubt the flame was intentional. HowevEr it was illjudged, I think pErhaps my response was OTT in reaction as I actually like Bardock 90% of the time and enjoy debating with him. HE and I have a problem with our conflicting views on right and wrong. I feel somethings cannot be justified. Perhaps experience does that to you.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
If I was a racist, I would have said that your people deserved what they got. Never did that.I wasn't questioning your herritage, I was questioning your intelligence. ( Which isn't unreasonable, when you start a thread asking people if YOU, personally, shold forgive the whole of the german nation )
And, if you want to get into it, your search results returned, what?...220,000 matches, using your spelling. Mine retured over 3 million. But, thats just symantics. Even the page you referenced in your own posts didn't spell it the way you did.
Like I said, I never questioned your ethnicity.
however thE majority of UK sites did your point is. Colour and Color 🙂
Much of this post is a flame still and does little to mend bridges, Sad really.
I don't understand how that is a flame. The belief that morals are relative is a perfectly rational position to hold; it is simply the inevitable consequence of such logic that the Nazis lived with a different moral standard to we did, and that although modern Western society could not justify extermination, Nazi society clearly could.
He thinks justification is a matter of point of view. That is not even remotely a flame on yourself.