On Geonosis...

Okay...

Did they defeat the droids? No..

Did they win the clone wars? No

Did Jedi get killed by GG a droid without force powers? Yes

Did the Jedi that got killed all practice one style that sucks? Yes

Could a better general have saved lives? Hell yes.

Could the Jedi with better training have done all that they should have done? Yes again.

I mean seriously they jumped into that arena like a bunch of crazy idiots, not working together but just standing there trying to block a bunch of attacks. Every Niman user at that battle died.

What does that tell you, that the style sucks. It was also the most used style. Then we have jedi losing from a droid. Any Jedi with a powerful force connection should win from GG. Just use the force, kick him away and if necessary run like a coward. Its weak but better then dying really.

If they would have used some basic tactics i'm sure they could have avoided many deaths with ease.

Face it they practiced the wrong style and they weren't used to fighting. This makes the Ancient Jedi better because they practiced good styles and they had experience.

This focus on style is an irreelvance. It's just a filmmaking thing. Smacks of being sucked into EU as well.

There is nothing strange about losing to overwhelming nubmers of droids, and GG was designed specifically as a villain who can beat Jeid, therefore your analysis that Jedi 'should' be able to beat them is incorrect.

The Jedi did not defeat the droids because of numbers and no other reason. It may have escaped your notice, but the Jedi DID win the Clone Wars.

If you want to talk about the 'sense' of tactics in freaking Star Wars- where armies line up in rows like it was Napoleonic times- then you have kinda let the point fly over your head.

Ancient Jedi better? Tosh.

Tactics like that, they shouldn't be used. But is it just me or could they have blocked the entrances to the Arena. They have the force afterall. Could they not have taken out Dooku right away and Jango Fett for that matter. They should have started the combat on the spectators area instead of on open ground where they have the disadvantage.

The style's are relevant because this is an EU forum so it counts.

GG was designed to kill Jedi yes, but he shouldn't have been able too. He could be better then all of them in a lightsaber fight I would not have cared, but the very thought that he could kill only one Jedi. A Jedi who has mystic powers that can push objects twice GG his weight away with ease is just strange. He should not be able to do that, the Jedi should have used the force to take him out. They weren't ready for such a thing and therefor they were weak.

And yes there is something strange about them losing to overwelming numbers because obviously all that didn't practice that worthless form could survive. So you would think there is something wrong with the form. And with their ability to fight, more should have survived. They should have thought about what they were going to do. Peace has made the Jedi soft and lazy.

Yes, if this had been a game, the Jedi would have stood by the entrances and hacked down droids as they entered.

But it is not a agme, it is a film- and that should be remembered. Film logic screws any manner of tactics in favour of entertainment- much as it eschews logic in lightsabre 'styles' or 'forms'.

It ight be the EU forum but it is italking about a film event with film logic (and will indeed be moved on the Episode II area if it carries on like this), which leaves the EU in error if it contradicts.

Why should more have survived? What makes you think that? I cannot see your logic at all. Against those numbers only the greatest lived, regardless of babble about forms.

Fishy, u keep asking y they didnt use the force. They did if u remember Ki-Adi Mundi used it, but GG saw and moved before it hit him.

Jango didnt attack at first so there was no sense in trying to kill him.

They would have went to kill him but they were being over run by droids.

Wich brings me to the point that there was more Droids than Jedi which means that on Jedi could be easily killed by droids. If a Jedi reflects a Super Battle Droids lazers and hit the droid again it wouldnt go down. The Super Battle Droids are stronger than that.

And the style thing Jedi all have different styles, not the same.

The PT Jedi were horrid!

They couldn't see a conspiracy involving all of their own soldiers, not to mentioned the complete ownage the Sith layed down on their asses.

So thousands of Jedi are owned by Maul, Dooku, Vader and Sidious throughout the years. They all get pwned except for Kenobi and Yoda.

Some Jedi they are.

And then a kid who builds droids gets three years of Jedi Experience, grabs a smuggler and a princess and rapes the Sith and defeats the Imperial army, in which some are Clone troopers, that once killed so many Jedi?

THE PT JEDI WERE HORRIBLE.

PT Jedi were weak because:

Lack of martial effectiveness
Lack of effectiveness in battle
Too much emphasis on capturing prisoners, death is a the safest way for some enemies
Too much emphasis on diplomacy in a Republic that was already falling apart
Lack of preparation for a martial conflict
Not a large enough of reserve Jedi when compared to the total amount
Restriction of certain Force powers

And numerous others...

Originally posted by Se7in
PT Jedi were weak because:

Lack of martial effectiveness
Lack of effectiveness in battle
Too much emphasis on capturing prisoners, death is a the safest way for some enemies
Too much emphasis on diplomacy in a Republic that was already falling apart
Lack of preparation for a martial conflict
Not a large enough of reserve Jedi when compared to the total amount
Restriction of certain Force powers

And numerous others...

The seven excuses of the crappy Prequel Jedi.

Those aren't excuses, they're the reasons the PT Jedi are weak,

Originally posted by Sorgo
[B]The PT Jedi were horrid!B]

Dooku was a PT Jedi.

Dooku wasn't exactly the smartest "Jedi" either. Why would you trust a Sith Lord, one who has a history of trying to kill his apprentices? More or less, why would you want to let Anakin live, I mean how smart do you have to be to say "Hey, I there's another person to be his apprentice, what'll happen to me?"

Originally posted by Se7in
Dooku wasn't exactly the smartest "Jedi" either. Why would you trust a Sith Lord, one who has a history of trying to kill his apprentices? More or less, why would you want to let Anakin live, I mean how smart do you have to be to say "Hey, I there's another person to be his apprentice, what'll happen to me?"

Dooku was great Jedi. A famed Jedi in which was liked by everyone in the Order. He set an example for many Jedi.

His whole point in his final duel was to make Anakin his apprentice. He got Kenobi out of the way and began to try to talk Anakin into channeling his Dark side. Dooku changed his form so he wouldn't kill Anakin but was overwhelmed when Anakin unleashed a fit of rage onto the Sith Lord whom changed his Form for the time being. Dooku's arrogance led to his death.

Originally posted by Sorgo
They were horribly owned by Clones of a bounty hunter. Their swordsmanship sucks, none of them were smart enough to oversee Sidious' plan, and they straight up have horrible tactics.

They deserve death.

the way i see it the pt jedi had to be killed off to make the story line correct see thats why plus they were outnumbered 50 to 1 in the arena and the others had about 10,000 clones to fight against

Originally posted by Sorgo
The PT Jedi were horrid!

They couldn't see a conspiracy involving all of their own soldiers, not to mentioned the complete ownage the Sith layed down on their asses.

So thousands of Jedi are owned by Maul, Dooku, Vader and Sidious throughout the years. They all get pwned except for Kenobi and Yoda.

Some Jedi they are.

And then a kid who builds droids gets three years of Jedi Experience, grabs a smuggler and a princess and rapes the Sith and defeats the Imperial army, in which some are Clone troopers, that once killed so many Jedi?

THE PT JEDI WERE HORRIBLE.

The PT Jedi get their asses kicked by the clones for a very simple reason, and for that reason only: their ability to use the Force to see the future was clouded by the Dark Side. Yoda himself says this. The clones, who greatly outnumbered the Jedi, remember, turned on them during battle; the Jedi were all concentrating on winning the fight and even had their sense of the Force NOT been clouded by the Dark Side I think they would have been hard-pressed to sense a split-second betrayal like that.

The slaughter on Geonosis? They were greatly outnumbered. The fact that they were against droids means nothing; if anything it'd make the battle harder for the Jedi as droids can be easily and quickly replaced, unlike if they had been fighting living opponents.

Luke managed what he did by sheer luck alone, so far as I'm concerned. He was barely trained and quite frankly, a wimp and not all that strong. And he did NOT defeat the Imperials by himself, the fact was that they only just barely won, and, as I'm sure you'd know since you like the EU so much, they continued to fight the Imperials for a very long time aftwards.

Originally posted by Lana
The PT Jedi get their asses kicked by the clones for a very simple reason, and for that reason only: their ability to use the Force to see the future was clouded by the Dark Side. Yoda himself says this. The clones, who greatly outnumbered the Jedi, remember, turned on them during battle; the Jedi were all concentrating on winning the fight and even had their sense of the Force NOT been clouded by the Dark Side I think they would have been hard-pressed to sense a split-second betrayal like that.

The slaughter on Geonosis? They were greatly outnumbered. The fact that they were against droids means nothing; if anything it'd make the battle harder for the Jedi as droids can be easily and quickly replaced, unlike if they had been fighting living opponents.

Luke managed what he did by sheer luck alone, so far as I'm concerned. He was barely trained and quite frankly, a wimp and not all that strong. And he did NOT defeat the Imperials by himself, the fact was that they only just barely won, and, as I'm sure you'd know since you like the EU so much, they continued to fight the Imperials for a very long time aftwards.

I like EU so much? An untrue Assumption, at best.

I'm sure Luke endured luke when he defeated his Experienced Father in Lightsaber combat, helped destroy an entire army and end the reign of the Sith.

Kenobi, Mace, Yoda and alot of other Jedi did not have problems with the droids. They were the only Jedi that survived. Well, with the exception of Windu. Wanna know why they survived? Because they were decent Jedi who had the proper saber skills and wise knowledge to survive long enough.

The other Jedi were pathetic, their tactics were shit on a stick and their saber skills ate my balls.

What?! Even so, Kenobi is told by Dooku on Episode II these exact words.

Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious.

You think the Prequel Jedi are so good? Listen to Kenobi's reply to Dooku's statement.

Obi-Wan: I don't believe you.

How pathetic is that? He didn't report this to the Council, either.

And Sidious ripping three Jedi apart in mere seconds? Don't tell me they were suprised, either. They had their Lightsabers ignited. They got ripped apart because of their shoddy Lightsaber skill and their half ass knowledge.

Mace needed some jedi to stay back and baby-sit the younglings. Besides, you would be wasting Jedi if u bring the whole Jedi Temple

Originally posted by Sorgo
I like EU so much? An untrue Assumption, at best.

I'm sure Luke endured luke when he defeated his Experienced Father in Lightsaber combat, helped destroy an entire army and end the reign of the Sith.

Kenobi, Mace, Yoda and alot of other Jedi did not have problems with the droids. They were the only Jedi that survived. Well, with the exception of Windu. Wanna know why they survived? Because they were decent Jedi who had the proper saber skills and wise knowledge to survive long enough.

The other Jedi were pathetic, their tactics were shit on a stick and their saber skills ate my balls.

What?! Even so, Kenobi is told by Dooku on Episode II these exact words.

Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious.

You think the Prequel Jedi are so good? Listen to Kenobi's reply to Dooku's statement.

Obi-Wan: I don't believe you.

How pathetic is that? He didn't report this to the Council, either.

And Sidious ripping three Jedi apart in mere seconds? Don't tell me they were suprised, either. They had their Lightsabers ignited. They got ripped apart because of their shoddy Lightsaber skill and their half ass knowledge.

Didn't report it? When he said to Mace at the end of AOTC:

"Do you think it's true, about Sidious controlling the Senate, it doesn't feel right."

Just 'cause we didn't hear a word by word account of his "debriefing," doesn't mean he didn't say anything.

And Christ on a stick man! It's a f*ckin PREQUEL to a movie! They HAVE to keep the storyline continuity in check. The whole tale of Vader HIMSELF killing off the Jedi is Bull and GL knew it.

So how are they gonna do it huh? How are they gonna make it seem feasible? The Dark Side WAS clouding their minds, and as well, their judgement of peoples intentions. And they were clones...drones, mindless servants to the Emperor, neuroligically/Force linked to obey his every command no matter what, or however else you want to say it.

Either way, the Jedi are gonna have a harder time sensing deception from THEM more than they would natural sentients even WITHOUT the Dark clouding them.

You'll notice they didn't give the Jedi much of a chance to escape as well. Blown up on a speeder bike, in a ship, two were shot from behind. Not the most glamorous, but it gets the job done.

If they were killed while anticipating the Clones attacks THEN you can call them weak fools.

And Luke endured luke???

He DID barely escape, if it wasn't for his daddy all tripped out on his own emotions, while Luke touched the Dark, (which a good l'il Jedi should never do), and if it wasn't for dear 'ol pa, turning on his master at the last moment, BEHIND HIS BACK, then Luke would've been f*cked.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Woah! Calm down Bessy.

Didn't report it? When he said to Mace at the end of AOTC:

"Do you think it's true, about Sidious controlling the Senate, it doesn't feel right."

Just 'cause we didn't hear a word by word account of his "debriefing," doesn't mean he didn't say anything.

So how are they gonna do it huh? How are they gonna make it seem feasible? The Dark Side WAS clouding their minds, and as well, their judgement of peoples intentions. And they were clones...drones, mindless servants to the Emperor, neuroligically/Force linked to obey his every command no matter what, or however else you want to say it.

Either way, the Jedi are gonna have a harder time sensing deception from THEM more than they would natural sentients even WITHOUT the Dark clouding them.

You'll notice they didn't give the Jedi much of a chance to escape as well. Blown up on a speeder bike, in a ship, two were shot from behind. Not the most glamorous, but it gets the job done.

If they were killed while anticipating the Clones attacks THEN you can call them weak fools.

And Luke endured luke???

He DID barely escape, if it wasn't for his daddy all tripped out on his own emotions, while Luke touched the Dark, (which a good l'il Jedi should never do), and if it wasn't for dear 'ol pa, turning on his master at the last moment, BEHIND HIS BACK, then Luke would've been f*cked.

He DID barely escape, if it wasn't for his daddy all tripped out on his own emotions, while Luke touched the Dark, (which a good l'il Jedi should never do), and if it wasn't for dear 'ol pa, turning on his master at the last moment, BEHIND HIS BACK, then Luke would've been f*cked.

Oh my god... You miss the point. Luke cut his fathers hand off and basically owned him within Lightsaber combat and he had three years of Experience with Lightsabers. Anakin had... How many years? Since he was a small child?

You'll notice they didn't give the Jedi much of a chance to escape as well. Blown up on a speeder bike, in a ship, two were shot from behind. Not the most glamorous, but it gets the job done.

Ki Adi Mundi got f*cked in front, Jett did, Kit got punked, Agen got shit f*cked and Sassee got pretty much juiced out.

FOUR Jedi Masters against one Sith Lord, and they all end up dying? That's truthfully pathetic.

So how are they gonna do it huh? How are they gonna make it seem feasible? The Dark Side WAS clouding their minds, and as well, their judgement of peoples intentions. And they were clones...drones, mindless servants to the Emperor, neuroligically/Force linked to obey his every command no matter what, or however else you want to say it.

That's great, but that would probably mean that the Light side would be weaker than the Dark side in this instance. If these "Jedi" cannot see through the cloud using their enlightened Force powers, doesn't that make them pathetic? Or just crappy Jedi? The Sith owned the Jedi, and the Jedi were pathetic enough to walk right into it. They were clouded? Any Jedi whom is powerful enough could have seen through it, but... Y'know.... They aren't powerful enough.

If they were killed while anticipating the Clones attacks THEN you can call them weak fools.
You think out of like hundreds of Jedi, all of them are gonna get shot in the back? Jett didn't. Ki Adi Mundi didn't. Be real.

If I gave a rats ass who Jett was, I'd ask, but Mundi was facing away from then, heard there guns charge, turned right when they fired. God, the only Lightsider to escape THAT barage and live is....................?

I wasn't talking about the Jedi in Palpatines office, they got owned, only cause Lucas needed them out of the way for Mace and Palps to fight.

And since we don't actually know how EVERY single Jedi was killed, we can't say anything about THEM can we?

And did you ever think that maybe because for once, the Dark Side was more poweful than the light? Does that still make the Jedi weak? Literally 1000's of years of Force domination in the galaxy and NOW they start to wane. Ever consider that maybe, the Dark Side just might be stronger than they are this time. Still doesn't mean they sharply declined and the Dark's barely any better.

And again, as part of the script, Vader HAD to lose.

If he didn't than Luke would've fallen, or died. The Hero in this story was pre-written to live for the audience's favour. FOUR f*ckin years of training. Four against like 40. It's bullshit.

Vader put up a better fight against a crippled old man, there was more MOVING of the limbs in ESB. In ROTJ, did you see how cumbersome those two were fighting? Wildly swinging and barely blocking. That is NOT Jedi fighting.

I've done that with a rapier when I was 11 after I watched ROTJ, purely for the sake of mocking their movements. That Was NOT fighting.