ROTS Anakin vs. TPM Mace

No, it wouldn't make one tremendously better at dueling, but it does make them better.

I agree that the Clone Wars probably molded the jedi into better warriors. But don't think Anakin's Clone Wars experience is enough to topple someone who has been training and learning longer than he's been alive and then some.

Also, I'm sure Mace practiced with other Jedi during the gap between TPM and ROTS (we saw him spar with Vos) and he also fought Depa, Bulq and Asajj is duels, which made him just a bit stronger I'm sure.

Yeah, and he also sparred before that I'd imagine. I don't see any reason to think that TPM Mace < ROTS Anakinm, however.

And did Mace master Vaapad by TPM? I didn't know he had mastered it by then. But I don't know alot about that stuff.

Hm. It says on the starwars site that he made his own form at 13. This is Vaapad, which is an extension of Juyo (and Juyo itself conbined many elements of other forms). This implies great saber mastery by TPM alone.

I think there is. Vader fights with rage and is more overconfident.

Again, this is semantics. Vader and Anakin are the same physical person. To say that Vader fights with rage and is overconfidant and Anakin isn't is a bit misleading. For one thing, Anakin uses rage quite often in the series, from AOTC slaughtering the Sand People to defeating Assajj to his actions in Jedi Trial and then pushing back Dooku using anger. Anakin is also horribly overconfidant. In AOTC, he charged Dooku (A sith lord and a reputable jedi master) blindly and was rewarded with ownage. Anakin was also overconfidant in going to Geonosia to save Kenobi. He was overconfidant in being able to track down and defeat Grievious (though to be fair, it is possible he could very well have done it had he been sent and not Kenobi). Etc, etc. He was overconfidant in Jedi Trial, overconfidant in Dark Rendezvous, etc. They are the same person. Anakin did not stay as Vader for more than a day when he was struck down and reborn into the mecha-monstrosity we all know and love from the OT.

So really, this proves nothing.

Also I've heard Lucas has said Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, meaning Anakin is stronger than vader.

This is probably taken out of context. I -have- heard NG say that Anakin is a 9 on the scale o' lightsaber bias while Obi-Wan is an 8, but this didn't stop Obi-Wan from defeating him. And as pointed out above, Vader and Anakin are the same person until the transformation into the suit, which was a formality.

Sinse I know you hate it when I say things without supporting any proof but myn own words I'll try to find out where/when he said it.

Fair enough.

Sure he does. Apparently you think Qui-Gon's saber skills could at least rival Anakin's. But I guess you said Mace would pwn Anakin so I guess you think Qui-Gon would beat Anakin too, right?

This sole unsupported statement from a non-canon novelisation is ridiculous. I watched Qui-Gon in combat as did you. I read the novels in which he showed up. There is -nothing- to indicate that Qui-Gon is on par with Mace Windu other than this one hyperbole-ish statement.

Well, you really think he got stronger? Just sitting on his ass in the Council Chambers?

Do you really think that's all he did? You think he didn't go to missions or practice with peers or training his padawan (Who was a master by TPM) or train others? You think he just sat cross-legged on that ottoman for what? Years?

Janus could you please explain to me how the TPM novelisation is not canon?

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Janus could you please explain to me how the TPM novelisation is not canon? Oh by the way who is that in your avatar?

Why the hell did you quote yourself a minute after you originally posted?

And her is saying that it's got exagerations in that Novel.

If it contradicts, it's not canon. If it's hyperbole, it should be noted. There is nothing to show or indicate that Qui-Gon Jinn is as good as Mace is, and if this is the basis for this entire battle, come back when some valid points are to be made.

But do we konw for a fact how good Mace is by TPM? And Glentract I went to edit my post and messed up.

Alright. I understand the system screwing up.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
But do we konw for a fact how good Mace is by TPM? And Glentract I went to edit my post and messed up.

Dennis Miller in my avatar.

And Mace's skill with a lightsaber is implied in his position in the council, the fact that he was old enough at this time to have his own padawan be on the council (Depa Bilaba) and this implies a -hell- of a lot of saber training even at this point. ROTS Mace is something like fifty years old at least. If you take even the bare minimum fifty and subtract thirteen years, he's still 37, a jedi master and creator of his own lightsaber style which is based on Juyo (which in turn is based on several other forms, Anakin's of which is one of them).

Other than that, I don't have much. But the idea that Qui-Gon Jinn = Mace Windu is hyperbole. Qui-Gon Jinn was not very good at saber combat in TPM, and when Maul counterattacked for the first time, Qui was ataken back. A few short moments later Maul counters again and Qui dies. This implies a very limited understanding of battle and his own abilities, and the fact that he could not hold up a good defense (and indeed, was outdueled by his padawan... Obi-Wan did far more damage in a few short moments) makes me wonder just how much training under Dooku he had. If the argument is QGJ = TPM Mace < ROTS Anakin, I expect proof of the first half even being accurate. So far, I don't see a thing.

Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler? But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)
-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel
-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)
-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler? But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)
-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel
-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)
-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

I did! Haha, now your not special!

I never said I was and finally someone else who has thought that, I was starting to believe I was the only one.

Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler?

I did and then dismissed it. Qui-Gon is a terrible duellist; Mace, however, practices a more variable, solid style and is a virtual lightsaber prodigy. This is evident and there's nothing proofwise to say otherwise. Anyone who thinks Qui-gon -was- a good duellist obviously doesn't know a sword from a sock.

But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

He was on his ass. It happened. Admit it and move on.

-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)

For his wisdom. Qui Gon sucked. And as for Anoonda or whatever, he killed himself.

-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel

Which was smart, but it didn't keep Obi-Wan from beating his ass.

-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)

Trademark of a proud, foolhardy fighter. Sidious himself said he wished he hadn't made Maul so proud, if I remember correctly. In any case, where are you going with this?

-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

Please... ROTJ finale was pretty well unbelievable as a battle. Vader goads Luke into anger, then suddenly can't hang at all despite Luke's smaller stature, weaker physical strength, and swing, batta batta style. This doesn't imply Luke was stronger or better; it implies Vader was fueling Luke's anger and hatred per his master's orders, and it almost worked.

Secondly, dark side or no, Maul was supposed to be a Sith lord. The only way he'd be schooled by some padawan using the dark side is if A) Obi-Wan was stronger than he was B) Obi-Wan effectively kept him offguard and handed him his ass for a minute. What I noticed was both, apparently.

You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

Uh huh. What does that have to do with the fight? Does Qui-gon suddenly elevate in power level to possibly flirt with the possibility that QGJ = TPM Mace < ROTS Anakin by simply flailing away at a Sith lord who pwned him and in turn had his own ass handed to him by an angry padawan?

Please.

Qui Gon doesn't suck in lightsaber combat at all, he isn't at Windu level, but he doesn't suck. Also Maul died, but he had won the duel and was a better combatant then TPM Obi Wan. Maul was like Chuck Norris badass (Pre-Walker Texas Ranger).

First off Janus the stunt double in that fight probably sucked not to mention a while back in a Sidious thread you said you can't use senimatics in duels. Actually Anoon admitted defeat in that duel and also Sidious wished that he didn't instill so much 'hatred' for jedi. And I used that duel aas an example of Qui-Gon's skill.

It's semantics not senimatics, and there's nothing semantic about Qui-Gon Jinn sucking in the movies, since he does. Movie canon overrides fanfic-like novelisation hyperbole anyday, and Qui-Gon Jinn is not that good a swordsman. He sucks. Period.

Show me proof Qui-Gon sucks and don't use the movie duel.

LMFAO!

It's EVIDENT that he sucks as a duellist. Watch the duel. He leaves himself open constantly. He spins in a dramatic, slow motion to strike once, and Maul sees it before it completes and hops over it. He bashes at Maul and never once is the Zabrak in a tight spot because Qui-Gon Jinn fights like a five year old. Btw, things that are EVIDENT don't require PROOF. PROOF must first be EVIDENT, not the other way around. Jeez. Listen to yourself. You got fifty bucks riding on this battle?

Whoa! Not cool. We belive the same thing in this forum and you put in a quote from someone else. I didn't say that.

Yeah, and he also sparred before that I'd imagine. I don't see any reason to think that TPM Mace < ROTS Anakinm, however.

To say that Vader fights with rage and is overconfidant and Anakin isn't is a bit misleading.

This is probably taken out of context. I -have- heard NG say that Anakin is a 9 on the scale o' lightsaber bias while Obi-Wan is an 8, but this didn't stop Obi-Wan from defeating him. And as pointed out above, Vader and Anakin are the same person until the transformation into the suit, which was a formality.

I watched Qui-Gon in combat as did you. I read the novels in which he showed up. There is -nothing- to indicate that Qui-Gon is on par with Mace Windu other than this one hyperbole-ish statement.

Do you really think that's all he did?

You think he didn't go to missions or practice with peers or training his padawan (Who was a master by TPM) or train others?

Once again the stunt double for Qui-Gon probably sucked so other than one duel in the movie you have nothing. Also Mace was on the defensive his whole duel aginst Sidious so therefore Mace must be an inferior duelist by that logic.

qui gon did quite well against maul i thought!!