Originally posted by quanchi112
So a one time feat defines how he fights 99 percent of the time ? I don't think that's the norm for Superman in which to take on the Hulk. You are free to disagree.
How fast he is defines how fast he is.
This isn't a comic book. Characters don't forget to use super speed.. We call that PIS.
Originally posted by cdtm
How fast he is defines how fast he is.This isn't a comic book. Characters don't forget to use super speed.. We call that PIS.
This is where the debate gets difficult.
I argue that Superman will chuck Hulk away, and do it fast enough that he can't react. Or punch him away, whatever. I reference Parasite, a guy who gets stronger as time passes, as my proof, as he is relevant.
Hulk supporters will say he will resist and pummel Superman before he gets a chance. And reference Gladiator, a guy who has superspeed, flight, and superstrength as their proof, as he is relevant.
But then its out of character for Superman to BFR, but not out of character for Hulk to resist, according to some schools of thought.
Originally posted by cdtm
How fast he is defines how fast he is.This isn't a comic book. Characters don't forget to use super speed.. We call that PIS.
Super speed is a power/ability/trait just like any other power/ability/trait displayed in comics.
It's used however the character employs it regularly, just like anything else.
Otherwise the alternative - citing every time Superman didn't use his speed effectively or the extent in which it can be used as PIS - means that you're going to throw out an absurd amount of comics as PIS if you apply that same rationale/logic to every power ever.
And there's no reason why you shouldn't.
The problem is, Jake, is that superspeed SHOULD be used more often.
Its as if Superman had a whole rogues gallery filled with ice based villains, and never (or rarely) used his heat vision.
With such a glaring omission, would it really be that much a stretch if I posted a fight between Namor and Superman, and said that Superman knows Namor's weakness to being dried out...how long do you think that fight would last? Or against Mr Freeze etc?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The problem is, Jake, is that superspeed SHOULD be used more often.Its as if Superman had a whole rogues gallery filled with ice based villains, and never (or rarely) used his heat vision.
With such a glaring omission, would it really be that much a stretch if I posted a fight between Namor and Superman, and said that Superman knows Namor's weakness to being dried out...how long do you think that fight would last? Or against Mr Freeze etc?
I have no problem with that line of thought.
But if super speed gets automatically extrapolated to the highest levels ever displayed by a character - regardless of whether or not it was a "combat feat" - then, by all rights, every power should be used at the maximum level ever displayed by said character.
In which case you basically have a bunch of high end feat wanking, severely mangled "characters" being debated that don't even resemble anything at all as to what we see in comics.
I do think Superman uses his speed. To the point, frequency, and degree that some people want to argue on the forums at times? No, he really doesn't and no can can argue against outside of saying "well, it's PIS". And I certainly don't think he's dumb enough not to use his speed at all ever.
And no one seems to want to apply the same line of logic concerning the use of speed across the board for every character including every power ever.
I guess it depends where you draw the line, then.
Superman is astronomically stronger then Batman, as an example (analogous to the speed). Does he need to bust out 'benching the Earth for five days whilst starving' strength if he was getting serious about hurting Bruce? Of course not. On the scale of 1-10, all he needs to use is Bruce's level +1 (or 2, if he really wants to be a dick about it).
When fighting the Hulk, does he need to bust out 'escaping from black holes/racing the Flash' type speeds? No. But he could if needed/wanted - all we need to know is that since the Hulk has only shown supersonic (OK, very lowballing here), all Superman needs to do is Hulk speed+1, which, since we know his max (black holes etc), is easy enough to achieve.
Which is cool and fine and I can get on board with that.
But if anyone with super speed will be operating constantly and consistently at their highest level of speed ever displayed in comics, regardless of whether or not they use that speed in a combat context, then every power ever displayed should automatically be always used at the highest display ever shown in comics by each character, regardless of how they use said powers regularly.
And really, if that's applied wholesale across the board, the forum's going to become CBR-esque with some outrageously skewed versions of characters being discussed.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Which is cool and fine and I can get on board with that.But if anyone with super speed will be operating constantly and consistently at their highest level of speed ever displayed in comics, regardless of whether or not they use that speed in a combat context, then every power ever displayed should automatically be always used at the highest display ever shown in comics by each character, regardless of how they use said powers regularly.
And really, if that's applied wholesale across the board, the forum's going to become CBR-esque with some outrageously skewed versions of characters being discussed.
Yeah - though I can't say about CBR, having never gone there.
It might just be poor debating skills, I know I'm certainly guilty of the following, because I think it saves time:
Debator A: Superman will speedblitz
Dabator B: Na-uh, Hulk will react and punch his lights out!
Debator A: Look, here is <insert stupidly high end feat>
Debator B: Not Supes' usual MO
Etc.
The reason why high end feats get trotted out, is because when I do it, I think it would be enough. Why need to waste time showing Superman's speed is Hulk+1, when I can show its Hulk+100? Then of course, because its X+100, its a high end feat, and so not a usual MO.
But it doesn't take away the issue that Superman is easily Hulk+1 in speed, and the fight is his to lose.
And if he DOES emit gamma energy like that, it would have to be a different version of the Hulk (i.e. not Gray, or Professor, or Savage).
So it boils down to a lucky t-clap, which would still be doubtful, IMHO, if Superman is speeding about faster than Hulk can react. But yeah - good to have this chat.
Speed is an attribute, just like strength.
Not a power that you have to think to use like an exotic blast or matter manipulation.
Speed is just as downplayed as Strength is, in reality, in comics.
Ben Grimm is millions upon millions of times weaker than the WWH. You'd never know it from their fight though. You'd just think it was the equivalent of a supreme body building rapist vs a pre-pubescent girl.
There's no reason a CIS-less Thing vs Hulk fight can't be argued to end with a simple finger poke through Ben's skull based on the power difference. I've certainly seen similar sentiments posted here regarding Ben's chances against a cutting loose Hulk.
Likewise the analogous argument between guys where the speed difference is just as great as the strength difference in the above example, is just as reachable.
Not necessarily.
A character can see in super speed and normal human speeds at the same time. See Nova for instance.
If Superman had to actively turn on his super speed, then he'd never be able to save people from gunmen while he's still acting as Clark Kent. Because by the time he thinks 'super speed on' at normal human speed of thought, people will have already been shot.
Why? Because bullets are far faster than the (human) speed of thought. Far faster.
edit: Dude. Stop overusing ellipses in every post. Please, I'm begging you.
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...that's against Doomsday Rex, someone that was getting weaker by the second. Hulk has speed fts of moving in a blur, something that this Doomsday clearly wasn't doing. By the way, a simple Thunderclap, especially from Hulk, would have stopped all of that.
No it wouldn't, as he'd have phased through that too.
pr1983
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Superman doesn't see things in slow motion 24/7.
Originally posted by carver9
It was stated that Doomsday Rex was getting weaker in the scene before the scan you posted.If Superman decides to bfr, yes, he will win this. I think Superman is smart enough to not fight against a guy that's already top tier strong all over but strength increase by the second. I've always given Superman the majority because of this but take bfr off, he isn't winning.
What if they fought out of character?