ROTS Sidious, ROTS Vader, Darth Maul vs. Dooku, Ventress, Greivous

Started by Sorgo13 pages

REVELATIONS

Ah, poor Count Dooku. Or should we call you Darth Tyranus? For thirteen years you've been carefully plotting, carefully conspiring with Darth Sidious, waiting for the day when you would take Sidious' place and assume your rightful place as the ruler of the galaxy. You were born to great wealth, you positively ooze class and sophistication, you have amassed power, and knowledge, and a lifetime of lightsabre technique ... and now you're about to get your head chopped off by a peasant from Tatooine. Sucks to be you.

We don't really learn that much about Count Dooku in this movie, although the novelization says that he's an aristocratic snob and a racist. But perhaps more interestingly, it also describes his plan for turning young Skywalker to the Dark Side (p.67):

Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power.

Lord Sidious would take it from there.

So this is the plan: goad a Jedi into lashing out with anger and using the Dark Side of the Force. Once he has used the Dark Side, he can be easily corrupted by a Sith Lord into joining their cause. This was Tyranus' plan for Skywalker (although Sidious had his own plans), and it was clearly Palpatine's plan for Luke Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. One can only imagine that this is how he himself was corrupted.

Not likely. Illustrious and Deus and the others do a better job. I got very angry in the last post. I had to edit it to try and reduce an nuance of patience and civility. I wouldn't be an effective politician for the lack of patience on specific topics.

Sorry, Sorgo. But I heavily disagree with you. I won't reply further on the topic. Sorry for the anger, but again. Stress combined with the fact that I don't believe you will reason (again, personal opinion) has dictated that I just drop it.

So... Erm... Okay.

Sounds good.

Good Debate, my friend.

I guess so. Lol.

Well, I'm going to hit the sheets. Good night all.

Originally posted by Escape81
Not likely. Illustrious and Deus and the others do a better job. I got very angry in the last post. I had to edit it to try and reduce an nuance of patience and civility. I wouldn't be an effective politician for the lack of patience on specific topics.

Sorry, Sorgo. But I heavily disagree with you. I won't reply further on the topic. Sorry for the anger, but again. Stress combined with the fact that I don't believe you will reason (again, personal opinion) has dictated that I just drop it.

So... Erm... Okay.

Heh there overrated as you will probably find out after you get in debates with them, your definately one of the best here along with darth somebody,lord darkstar and nai fohl(though I often disagree with him).

I am not so good with debates on topics or subjects, but in a personal debate when it's another person insulting another person, don't even TRY to argue with me. 😛

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Heh there overrated as you will probably find out after you get in debates with them, your definately one of the best here along with darth somebody,lord darkstar and nai fohl(though I often disagree with him).

This is amusing. The original Sidious fanboy in every way of the term undercuts me and Illustrious and props up DS (The -other- Sidious fanboy) in the same breath. Cute. Very cute.

Shouldn't you be playing with blocks somewhere, GV?

I'm not a particular 'fan' of fanboys, but thanks for the warm reception, Vengeance. Nai Fohl is great, I don't know much about Darkstar. And as for Darth Somebody, I've read a few of his arguments, particularly on the 'Dooku vs Sidious' debate. While it's obvious that he preferred Palpatine as a character, I wouldn't warrant him off as a fanboy. He tried to make legitimate arguments, and if anything, there are several 'Dooku' fanboys as well.

But it's just my observation.

The books are not venerable Canon. Lucas has said the comics, movies and CW are Canon. He NEVER said the books are Canon. They have nothing to do with lucas.

This is the E.U. and literature section. Everything goes here unless contridicted by an officil/canon source.
In the original script, Dooku says "But you promised me amnesty!".

As you said yourself about the original script: Too bad it didn't happen that way. This means Dooku said none of that.
You cannot proove Anakin would have become more powerful than Dooku if he had his full Potential.

Actually, yes, he can. In TPM Qui-Gon says "No Jedi has (had a Midiclorin count as high as Anakin's)." George Lucas himself has stated that Anakin's full poetntial is twice that of Sidious's.
I can imagine Palpatine was being the smartest guy when his preminition f*cked up and he got bench pressed into a Generator, yes?

Sorgo, open your eyes. Palpatine tricked and manipulated the enitre galaxy.
But, c'mon, Sidious got thrown into a bloody generator, for christs sakes!

And Dooku was to ****ing stupid to realise Sidious was going to betray him. He knew Palpatine had his eyes on Anakin.
Instead, he got his new apprentice to do it. Don't try to tell me Sidious "Didn't wanna ruin his identity, or it was a reason to get Anakin to turn to the Dark side." If any reason, it would turn Anakin to the LIGHT. He just killed a dangerous Sith Lord. I shout Light points! Argh!

Palpatine got Anakin to break the Jedi Code and kill an unam=rmed opponent. He had Dooku help bring out the anger in Anakin. Turned him more to the light my ass. And what was Plapatine going to do? Have Ani and Obi enter the Invisible Hand to find Dooku already dead? And what would they do then? Assume Grievous did it? And Dooku had his chance to kill Palpatine on the Invisible Hand, too. But he didn't.

Originally posted by darthsith19
This is the E.U. and literature section. Everything goes here unless contridicted by an officil/canon source.

As you said yourself about the original script: Too bad it didn't happen that way. This means Dooku said none of that.

Actually, yes, he can. In TPM Qui-Gon says "No Jedi has (had a Midiclorin count as high as Anakin's)." George Lucas himself has stated that Anakin's full poetntial is twice that of Sidious's.

Sorgo, open your eyes. Palpatine tricked and manipulated the enitre galaxy.

And Dooku was to ****ing stupid to realise Sidious was going to betray him. He knew Palpatine had his eyes on Anakin.

Palpatine got Anakin to break the Jedi Code and kill an unam=rmed opponent. He had Dooku help bring out the anger in Anakin. Turned him more to the light my ass. And what was Plapatine going to do? Have Ani and Obi enter the Invisible Hand to find Dooku already dead? And what would they do then? Assume Grievous did it? And Dooku had his chance to kill Palpatine on the Invisible Hand, too. But he didn't.

Everything was over and you just had to stroll in here to repeat basically what Escape said previously in different words. Want a reply? Read my above posts, you broken record.

Palpatine got Anakin to break the Jedi Code and kill an unam=rmed opponent. He had Dooku help bring out the anger in Anakin. Turned him more to the light my ass. And what was Plapatine going to do? Have Ani and Obi enter the Invisible Hand to find Dooku already dead? And what would they do then? Assume Grievous did it? And Dooku had his chance to kill Palpatine on the Invisible Hand, too. But he didn't.

What if Dooku killed Palpatine earlier? they were on a rescue mission. Then it would have looked like a SITH LORD killed a POLITICIAN. Not very good for Dooku. Besides, he wouldn't want another Crime on his slate, he wanted Amnesty.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Everything was over and you just had to stroll in here to repeat basically what Escape said previously in different words. Want a reply? Read my above posts, you broken record.

[B]Palpatine got Anakin to break the Jedi Code and kill an unam=rmed opponent. He had Dooku help bring out the anger in Anakin. Turned him more to the light my ass. And what was Plapatine going to do? Have Ani and Obi enter the Invisible Hand to find Dooku already dead? And what would they do then? Assume Grievous did it? And Dooku had his chance to kill Palpatine on the Invisible Hand, too. But he didn't.

What if Dooku killed Palpatine earlier? they were on a rescue mission. Then it would have looked like a SITH LORD killed a POLITICIAN. Not very good for Dooku. Besides, he wouldn't want another Crime on his slate, he wanted Amnesty. [/B]


Okay, I was trying to help Escape. I've read all your replies above and most of them got squashed by Escape. I was reinforcing them. And since you have to reply tot what I said...

Why wouldn't killing a politician be good for Dooku? It'd make sense to the Jedi why he killed Palpatine. He would now be the Sith Master. And he was already the most wanted man in the galaxy, besides Sidious himself. What would another crime be to him? What would it do to his record? Next to nothing.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, I was trying to help Escape. I've read all your replies above and most of them got squashed by Escape. I was reinforcing them. And since you have to reply tot what I said...

Why wouldn't killing a politician be good for Dooku? It'd make sense to the Jedi why he killed Palpatine. He would now be the Sith Master. And he was already the most wanted man in the galaxy, besides Sidious himself. What would another crime be to him? What would it do to his record? Next to nothing.

Oh yeah, Palpatine seemed innocent to the Galaxy. If he killed him, it would be a HUGE crime.

I hardly call that squashing. Besides, my theories lead into a venerable proofing, like the post I mentioned from "Revelations".

It says in the Books, which is something you apparently consider canon, that Dooku wanted to overthrow Sidious.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Oh yeah, Palpatine seemed innocent to the Galaxy. If he killed him, it would be a HUGE crime.

I hardly call that squashing. Besides, my theories lead into a venerable proofing, like the post I mentioned from "Revelations".

It says in the Books, which is something you apparently consider canon, that Dooku wanted to overthrow Sidious.


1. yes, killing Palpatine would be a huge crime. But compared to what he'd already done it'd be nothing.
2. No, you got squashed.
3. Yes, he wanted to take down Sidious. But he didn't. because he was scared. Because he knew Sidious was stronger than him.

Time to end this debate:
From the Making of ROTS, page 205

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't gotten all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor"

There. Mace or Yoda, and Also Anakin if he hadn't gotten beat-up. Not Dooku.

Goodbye.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. yes, killing Palpatine would be a huge crime. But compared to what he'd already done it'd be nothing.
2. No, you got squashed.
3. Yes, he wanted to take down Sidious. But he didn't. because he was scared. Because he knew Sidious was stronger than him.

Time to end this debate:
From the Making of ROTS, page 205

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't gotten all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor"

There. Mace or Yoda, and Also Anakin if he hadn't gotten beat-up. Not Dooku.

Goodbye.

1. Um, What he had done? He resigned from the Jedi, Built and army, threw a bunch of droids in an arena, cut some snobby kids arm off, and built some cyborg. Okay....

Killing a Chancellor wouldn't grant him his esteemed amnesty.

2. I didn't give up, and I was never squashed. We both had proof from books and some theories. It was a good debate and a considerable tie, so bugger off. Squashing would be what happened to you when you tried to say Sidious played Mace.

3. Wrong again. He tried to take Sidious' place on the Invisible Hand and he was tricked and screwed up by not using Form II. The only thing this shows is that Palpatine is a coward and that he is smarter than Dooku. This does not show that he is more powerful. Palpatine has a habit for doing cowardly things to people that are more powerful than him, y'know, like killing them in their sleep.

Hell...people...I hate it when you simply ignore facts given in the movies...

a) Sidious, Dooku and the CIS:
Sidious couldn't have controlled the CIS on his own because he betrayed the Trade Federation and they won't work for him. That's why he had to "use" Dooku. Now Dooku, being the Count of Sorenno, was one of the wealthiest individuals in the entire SW universe. He could have simply taken the CIS over, ignore Sidious commands and use his own wealth and the CIS resources (notice that the CIS leaders where basically the heads of some of the greatest affiliated groups in the Galaxy) and take the Republic over with brute force.
Considering Dooku's diplomatic skills (he made serveral thousands sun systems join the CIS) and his reputation as a Jedi Knight he could even have taken over the Republic in a "political" way by revealing Sidious as a Dark Lord and then use his political influence on the CIS systems to become the next Chancellor (his position being the ruler of the Sorenno system would have allowed that) and then do the same thing Sidious did (kill the Jedi, make himself Emperor).

Which leads to point

b) Did Sidious fear Dooku ?
I have to agree with Sorgo here. Obviously Sidious did fear Dooku and actually I'm not surprised he did considering the facts mentioned under point a.

Just think about AotC here. The entire film is a single plot against Dooku forcing Dooku to reveal his identity as a Sith Lord and leader of the CIS to the Jedi. Think about it:

- Padme arrives on Coruscant and the first assasination attempt fails. She's sure that Dooku is responsible but neither Mace nor Yoda can believe that.
- now it's Sidious that came up with the suggestion to let Obi-Wan and Anakin protect Padme knowing that every normal assasin must fail against two Jedi.
- that led to Obi-Wan discovering Kamino and Geonosis. If that would not have happened, Sidious could have given the information to the Jedi himself saying he got it somewhere (same he did in ROTS to reveal the position of Grievous)
- this led to the Jedi discovering that Dooku is a Sith Lord. Obviously the Battle of Geonosis was nothing that Dooku planned (since he was surprised when the Jedi came)

With that actions Sidious had simply destroyed Dooku's political influence since no normal person would follow a Sith Lord (maybe the reason Sidious never revealed his true position to anybody else than Vader - in ANH even a high decorated Imperial calls Vader the "only person that believes in the force" and labels the force a "fairy tale". Something that you won't do if you know that the Emperor is a force user).

In ROTS you can even see Sidious plotting further. Grievous receives direct commands from Sidious so Grievous KNEW who's the boss and thereby Sidious would have been in the position to cut Dooku's military resources off if needed. So the only thing he had to fear was facing Dooku in a direct confrontation and again he avoided that situation by using Anakin to kill Dooku.

c) Dooku not know Sidious true identity:
Now really you're stretching it. Dooku personally is telling Obi-Wan in AotC that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith and the only person controlling the Senate was the Chancellor which limited the possible suspects to the Chancellor himself and the people having influence on him. Dooku met Sidious personally on serveral ocassions - how would he NOT know that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. In ROTS it's getting obvious that he knew it.

d) Sidious lightning > Dookus lightning
Simply cut it. There is simply no way to compare them. Dooku is always using lightning with one hand. Sidious is always doing it with two hands. Dooku is always using it over greater distances. Sidious is always using it at almost point blank range.

So you can say thousand times that Yoda hadn't trouble with Dooku's lightning and had trouble with Sidious lightning since that simply doesn't make any sense because the situations aren't compareable. And since somebody asked for "proof" that lightning get's weaker over distance: Energy decreases over distance. Take a ball, throw it and it gets slower over distance. For any form of kynetic energy this is true or have you ever seen a force push crossing infinite range (or at least continuing to throw people on the ground until hitting a wall) - I never did. For lightning it's the same. It would naturally ionize the air and thereby lose power. For Sidious lightning you can even SEE that it's weaker used on longer range - simply compare ROTS to ROTJ.

e) Sidious > Dooku
Again some stupid mistake in terms of thinking. An darthsith19 - you've dug your own grave and with all the efficience somebody like you can have you did it for two topics at once:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor"

And this little quote from Lucas shows two things:

a) Sidious wasn't clearly more powerful than Mace therefore he could never have faked the fight against Mace in ROTS - you're wrong with your oppinion.
b) Dooku did defeat Mace and they're on the very same level which means that Dooku would have been able to defeat Sidious in direct confrontation too - again you're wrong with your ideas.

Thanks for showing us what "selfownage" really means... 😛
😮‍💨

Then tell me, Nai, where it states that Dooku was feared by Sidious. In Dark Rendezvous, it states the reverse. Or are you making inferences?

A) Sidious controlled Dooku. The Nemoidians and Separatists knew of Sidious, as was displayed before their execution at Anakin's hands. It was Sidious who controlled the CIS, as their de facto leader. Dooku was again, a puppet. And Sidious's political machinations and abilities are far beyond Dooku's, I'm afraid.

B) 'Obviously'? You mean by having 'Anakin' kill Dooku, he obviously must fear him? No. Palpatine's objective was to push Anakin further down the Dark path. He did that by convincing Anakin to give into his hatred by killing Count Dooku. Dark Rendezvous is canon, and it states that 'Dooku' feared Sidious. Again, you avoid that. You're beginning to sound very much like a conspiracy theorist. The Attack of the Clones plotline was centered around revealing the Separatist movement. Not about squandering Count Dooku's political influence.

C) I never said he didn't. I am saying that it is possible, when Sorgo threw out the 'amnesty' line. It implies that Dooku thought only of his captive as Palpatine, and Palpatine alone. Hence why it was most likely cut from the movie.

D) Actually, Sidious used it once. To knock Yoda's lightsaber away. And he did that with one hand. And in ROTJ, he was torturing Luke, not going to execute him. Hence why it was not as potent.

E)

Define 'compete'. It doesn't mean 'beat'. That quote does not imply that Mace is stronger, but that he and Yoda are the only few in the Emperor's power vicinity.

a) Palpatine used his saber-skills, which are clearly lacking. He only used his Force powers when he was disarmed and at a severe disadvantage. Notice how when he fights Yoda, he fights harder and with more aggression. I don't think Mace would've won had he fought against him like he did against Yoda.
b) Mace was defeated by Dooku in times before TPM. Dooku was older and had a much more mastery of his art. He improved over time, but Mace did too, and Mace had more room for improvement than Dooku. Who's to say who was stronger during the times of ROTS.

And notice Dooku's name is absent from that quote. He said 'Yoda' or 'Mace'. NOT 'Dooku'.

Couple this with the master and apprentice ideals, the fact that Dooku feared Sidious, and was subserviant to him for this time, and it's a good indication that Dooku was NOT more powerful than his master.

I know that this argument was mainly directed against Darthsith. But I am surprised at you, Nai. I heard so much positive things about you. But this shows only arrogance. I hope I just caught you in a bad time, and where you're not yourself. Maybe then I can see all of the 'positive' aspects people attribute to you.

I apologize, Escape. I must get involved again. Forgive me!


A) Sidious controlled Dooku. The Nemoidians and Separatists knew of Sidious, as was displayed before their execution at Anakin's hands. It was Sidious who controlled the CIS, as their de facto leader. Dooku was again, a puppet. And Sidious's political machinations and abilities are far beyond Dooku's, I'm afraid.

Incorrect. Sidious had no control over the CIS. Do you think he would be stupid enough to destroy his own army? The Seperatist were owning the Grand Army of the Republic so Sidious needed to eliminate their leaders. He DID NOT control the Seperatist Army. That's absurdity.

B) 'Obviously'? You mean by having 'Anakin' kill Dooku, he obviously must fear him? No. Palpatine's objective was to push Anakin further down the Dark path. He did that by convincing Anakin to give into his hatred by killing Count Dooku. Dark Rendezvous is canon, and it states that 'Dooku' feared Sidious. Again, you avoid that. You're beginning to sound very much like a conspiracy theorist. The Attack of the Clones plotline was centered around revealing the Separatist movement. Not about squandering Count Dooku's political influence.

Okay, the books aren't Canon. They have nothing to do with Lucas and have shown tendancies to clash with the Movies, not just ROTS.

And if the books are Canon, then Dooku did indeed try to overthrow Sidious on the Invisible Hand.

Like i said, the fear is mutual.

C) I never said he didn't. I am saying that it is possible, when Sorgo threw out the 'amnesty' line. It implies that Dooku thought only of his captive as Palpatine, and Palpatine alone. Hence why it was most likely cut from the movie.

Do you know the definition of Amnesty? It's an official government pardon to clean your criminal slate. He wanted all of his crimes thrown down the drain.

D) Actually, Sidious used it once. To knock Yoda's lightsaber away. And he did that with one hand. And in ROTJ, he was torturing Luke, not going to execute him. Hence why it was not as potent.

And now, young Skywalker... you will die.

Sidious was KILLING Luke and wanted Luke dead. He had no intetion of just torturing him. That is just out of bounds! Completly! Sidious was KILLING Luke.

a) Palpatine used his saber-skills, which are clearly lacking. He only used his Force powers when he was disarmed and at a severe disadvantage. Notice how when he fights Yoda, he fights harder and with more aggression. I don't think Mace would've won had he fought against him like he did against Yoda.

Oh my god...

Mace won the fight. He kicked Sidious' Lightsaber out of a Window and had Sidious scrambling away from his Saber. Sidious begged like a Dog for his life to be spared.

b) Mace was defeated by Dooku in times before TPM. Dooku was older and had a much more mastery of his art. He improved over time, but Mace did too, and Mace had more room for improvement than Dooku. Who's to say who was stronger during the times of ROTS.

And notice Dooku's name is absent from that quote. He said 'Yoda' or 'Mace'. NOT 'Dooku'.

Couple this with the master and apprentice ideals, the fact that Dooku feared Sidious, and was subserviant to him for this time, and it's a good indication that Dooku was NOT more powerful than his master.

The only thing that has truly been proved is that Sidious is smarter than Dooku. That's...It.

I know that this argument was mainly directed against Darthsith. But I am surprised at you, Nai. I heard so much positive things about you. But this shows only arrogance. I hope I just caught you in a bad time, and where you're not yourself. Maybe then I can see all of the 'positive' aspects people attribute to you.

Anyone that has proven weak points at Sidious or shows that some people didn't fear them, you start calling them arrogant or fanboyish. Maybe I smell a wee bit of Hypocrisy here....

Incorrect. Sidious had no control over the CIS. Do you think he would be stupid enough to destroy his own army? The Seperatist were owning the Grand Army of the Republic so Sidious needed to eliminate their leaders. He DID NOT control the Seperatist Army. That's absurdity.

What's absurd is that you even think that Palpatine didn't control both sides of the war and had orchestrated it masterfully. Virtually all of the occurances in the PT were the results of Palpatine's machinations. Palpatine did control the Confederacy of Independant Systems, as evidenced when he gives orders directly to Grievous and the Separatist leaders in ROTS. The war was fought using expendable soldiers on both sides. Clones are clearly more capable than droids, and they were on the Republic's/Empire's side, which is why the droid army was deactivated after Order 66, Palpatine's final victory of the war.

Okay, the books aren't Canon.

I'd suggest looking at the name of the forum before you utter anything of the sort again. As well, I believe we've established that anything is canon so long as it does not contradict the movies or any source that existed previously.

Do you know the definition of Amnesty?

Escape's point, I believe, was that the Count was asking for amnesty from a political figure. The man was about to die. It would make more logical sense if Dooku wanted to keep his head to reveal Palpatine as Sidious. The fact that he did not in the script lends credence to the claim that Dooku didn't even know that Palpatine was Sidious.

Sidious was KILLING Luke and wanted Luke dead. He had no intetion of just torturing him. That is just out of bounds! Completly! Sidious was KILLING Luke.

Go watch the movie again. Watch Palpatine's face, his smile as Skywalker writhes in agony. He was clearly reveling in his final victory over the Jedi, so he thought. Most of the lightning that he poured into Luke was sent with the intention to bring as much pain to him as possible before he finally decided to end his sadistic reverie and finish him off.

Mace won the fight. He kicked Sidious' Lightsaber out of a Window and had Sidious scrambling away from his Saber. Sidious begged like a Dog for his life to be spared.

Sorry, that last sentence is a total crock, and it seems to me that it's indicative of an anti-Sidious bias.

The only thing that has truly been proved is that Sidious is smarter than Dooku. That's...It.

Hardly, it seems to me that Escape has consistently stomped your points at every turn. And it's self-evident that Sidious' mastery of the dark side is leaps and bounds beyond Dooku's.


Anyone that has proven weak points at Sidious or shows that some people didn't fear them, you start calling them arrogant or fanboyish. Maybe I smell a wee bit of Hypocrisy here....

Honestly, Sorgo, his so-called namecalling were immediately followed with polite ingratiation. That and neither you nor Nai have "proven" weak points against Sidious anywhere without Escape countering effectively.

Originally posted by Escape81
A) Sidious controlled Dooku. The Nemoidians and Separatists knew of Sidious, as was displayed before their execution at Anakin's hands. It was Sidious who controlled the CIS, as their de facto leader. Dooku was again, a puppet. And Sidious's political machinations and abilities are far beyond Dooku's, I'm afraid.

I always wondered about that point:
In ROTS when Grievous told the CIS leaders that they will be transfered to Mustafar to protect them one of them said that he doubts that Grievous can protect them now that Dooku is dead.
If they knew about Sidious - what they needed Dooku for ? Against what could Dooku have protected them when Sidious not being able to protect them against it ?
The only thing Dooku offers protection against where Sidious doesn't is Sidious himself.
And we don't know if the Seperatists knew about Sidious being the person behind Dooku prior to the scene we see Sidious talking to them before Anakin kills them all.

In fact Grievous labels the decission to take them to Mustafar his own plan and the reason he gives is that the Republic army will discover them soon. If they knew about Sidious why would they fear the Republic army ?


B) 'Obviously'? You mean by having 'Anakin' kill Dooku, he obviously must fear him? No. Palpatine's objective was to push Anakin further down the Dark path. He did that by convincing Anakin to give into his hatred by killing Count Dooku. Dark Rendezvous is canon, and it states that 'Dooku' feared Sidious. Again, you avoid that. You're beginning to sound very much like a conspiracy theorist. The Attack of the Clones plotline was centered around revealing the Separatist movement. Not about squandering Count Dooku's political influence.

It doesn't matter what the AotC plotline is centred on. The effect was squandering Dooku's political influence. We're talking about Sith here - people who's main goal it is to surpass there masters using whatever is needed to do so. Imagine Dooku with the reputation he had among the Jedi order would have simply told the Jedi who the Dark Lord was. They would have believed him. Sidious had to discredit Dooku and that's what he did. Period.


D) Actually, Sidious used it once. To knock Yoda's lightsaber away. And he did that with one hand. And in ROTJ, he was torturing Luke, not going to execute him. Hence why it was not as potent.

You can see him using one hand in the close up but in the moment he blasted Yoda's lightsaber away he's again using BOTH hands. And in ROTJ he was killing Luke and not torturing him.


E)
Define 'compete'. It doesn't mean 'beat'. That quote does not imply that Mace is stronger, but that he and Yoda are the only few in the Emperor's power vicinity.

'compete' means that they are able to enter competition with Sidious or if want to rely on linguistics it means that they are compareable to Sidious in terms of power. And no it doesn't imply that Mace or Yoda were stronger BUT they are about equal to Sidious and thereby he could not have hoped to "fake" a fight against one of them.


a) Palpatine used his saber-skills, which are clearly lacking. He only used his Force powers when he was disarmed and at a severe disadvantage. Notice how when he fights Yoda, he fights harder and with more aggression. I don't think Mace would've won had he fought against him like he did against Yoda.

Sidious was only lucky against Yoda. According to the ROTS script Yoda disarmed Sidious after less than a minute of lightsaber combat (same Mace did) and then Sidious started using his force powers. He didn't basically fight Mace in another way than he did fight Yoda with the exception that he dislocated the fight in an area where he could gain some advantage. He's simply not able to defeat Yoda or Mace in a "fair" fight.


b) Mace was defeated by Dooku in times before TPM. Dooku was older and had a much more mastery of his art. He improved over time, but Mace did too, and Mace had more room for improvement than Dooku. Who's to say who was stronger during the times of ROTS.

In ROTS Dooku is still older than Mace and has still more mastery of his art. And Mace having more room for improvement ? He was already on council level in TPM times in terms of force powers and he did practice his own fighting style for 27 years - he hadn't much more room for improvement compared to Dooku while Dooku learned about the Dark Side.


And notice Dooku's name is absent from that quote. He said 'Yoda' or 'Mace'. NOT 'Dooku'.

Oh please. They are all in one category of power. Does Lucas have to chew for anything for some people here ? I'm not arguing that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in terms of dark side mastery but in a "fair" fight Dooku would defeat him the same way Mace did it. And considering the fact that Mace wanted to arrest Sidious and not kill him first, Dooku might be even faster to defeat Sidious.


Couple this with the master and apprentice ideals, the fact that Dooku feared Sidious, and was subserviant to him for this time, and it's a good indication that Dooku was NOT more powerful than his master.

Master and apprentice ideals talking about Sith - that's like praising christian ideals in front of a circle of Satanists.