ROTS Sidious, ROTS Vader, Darth Maul vs. Dooku, Ventress, Greivous

What's absurd is that you even think that Palpatine didn't control both sides of the war and had orchestrated it masterfully. Virtually all of the occurances in the PT were the results of Palpatine's machinations. Palpatine did control the Confederacy of Independant Systems, as evidenced when he gives orders [B]directly to Grievous and the Separatist leaders in ROTS. The war was fought using expendable soldiers on both sides. Clones are clearly more capable than droids, and they were on the Republic's/Empire's side, which is why the droid army was deactivated after Order 66, Palpatine's final victory of the war.[/B]

He gave Orders to "Move" the Seperatist Leaders, in which Grievous basically forced the Leaders to leave. This is not proof that Sidious controlled the Seperatists at ALL.

The Clones were losing the War against the Seperatist Army. Sidious wanted the Army gone so he could use the Clones to wipe out the Jedi. A bunch of Droids killing his soldiers wouldn't help them to kill Jedi.

Palpatine did not control everything in the PT, but he controlled alot of it.

I'd suggest looking at the name of the forum before you utter anything of the sort again. As well, I believe we've established that anything is canon so long as it does not contradict the movies or any source that existed previously.

Sweet, but several books have contradicted the movies from time to time. Thanks for clearing that up, bud.

Escape's point, I believe, was that the Count was asking for amnesty from a political figure. The man was about to die. It would make more logical sense if Dooku wanted to keep his head to reveal Palpatine as Sidious. The fact that he did not in the script lends credence to the claim that Dooku didn't even know that Palpatine was Sidious.

Script was elminated. Dooku was one of the only people to know Sidious' true identity. This is actually a FACT.

Go watch the movie again. Watch Palpatine's face, his smile as Skywalker writhes in agony. He was clearly reveling in his final victory over the Jedi, so he thought. Most of the lightning that he poured into Luke was sent with the intention to bring as much pain to him as possible before he finally decided to end his sadistic reverie and finish him off.

Sorry, that last sentence is a total crock, and it seems to me that it's indicative of an anti-Sidious bias.

You just agreed with me in a different form. Escape said Sidious only mean't torture, not execution. I am glad you agree with me. Thanks!

Hardly, it seems to me that Escape has consistently stomped your points at every turn. And it's self-evident that Sidious' mastery of the dark side is leaps and bounds beyond Dooku's.

And I have come from under his boot and broken his toes, my friend.

Sidious had a better mastery of the Dark side and he was smarter. This DOES not prove that Sidious was stronger than Dooku and is irrelevant to what we were speaking of.

Honestly, Sorgo, his so-called namecalling were immediately followed with polite ingratiation. That and neither you nor Nai have "proven" weak points against Sidious anywhere without Escape countering effectively.

And I suppose we just completly are hopeless to Escape's rays of brilliant debation skills and unparalell knowledge? What the shit?

We have been stomping each other, Kid.

Get it right.

A) Sidious controlled the CIS army and the political aspects of it. Dooku and Grievous, no matter how skilled or powerful, were his pawns, Nai. He addressed both Dooku, Grievous, and the Separatist leaders, and gave them orders. The Separatists 'did' know about Sidious being the de facto leader, otherwise they wouldn't have taken orders from him on Mustafar, now would they?

B) No. When Dooku revealed the 'Sith' presence to Obi-Wan, the Jedi already were suspicious of their return, ala Darth Maul. It is more likely that Dooku revealed the Sith on Sidious's orders, to get Obi-Wan to 'join' Dooku.

C) In Return of The Jedi, Palpatine's intent was to torture Luke. If you disagree, then explain to me why he frequently stopped to 'gloat'. As shown with Mace, when Palpatine wants to 'kill' someone, he does it without stopping and gloating, then continuing. The website also says he was torturing Luke. Yes. Without Vader's interference, Palpatine would have tortured him to death. But his immediate goal was to make Luke suffer. Period.

D) I never said he faked against either of them. That's Darthsith's theory.

E) By 'fair', you must mean 'stupid'. This sense of honor simply doesn't exist. In Star Wars, there is no such thing as a fair fight. When you get into a fight, you fight to 'win'. By any means necessary. Or perhaps you should understand that no Sith Lord abides by such rules of chivalry. Not even Dooku.

F) We are referring to 'lightsaber' forms. When Dooku crossed into the Dark Side, he had next to nothing to learn further about Makashi. Only Dark Side principles, lore, and abilities. Which has little to do with the ability to use a lightsaber. Mace was younger and had less experience. His margin for improvement, in lightsaber ability, extends beyond Dooku's.

G) That's just your point of view. Lucas stated that you need to be 'Mace' or 'Yoda' to compete with the Emperor. Not 'Dooku'. There is nothing that indicates Dooku is more powerful than his master. They may be close, and I'm not saying Dooku's far off. I'm certain he's still a greater duelist. But the fact of the matter is, the quotes from Lucas, the website, and all other movie implications disagree with your theory that Dooku is more powerful than his master.

Originally posted by Escape81
A) Sidious controlled the CIS army and the political aspects of it. Dooku and Grievous, no matter how skilled or powerful, were his pawns, Nai. He addressed both Dooku, Grievous, and the Separatist leaders, and gave them orders. The Separatists 'did' know about Sidious being the de facto leader, otherwise they wouldn't have taken orders from him on Mustafar, now would they?

In fact they would take orders from Sidious because they feared him. He knew where they were and they knew that Sidious is in some position of power (since he told them that he's able to manipulate the Senate in TPM). What else would they do except taking orders from him ? Hell...they feared two Jedi in a situation where they had an entire army of droids to defend them - just imagine how much they fear a Sith Lord in a situation where they have no one to defend them.

B) No. When Dooku revealed the 'Sith' presence to Obi-Wan, the Jedi already were suspicious of their return, ala Darth Maul. It is more likely that Dooku revealed the Sith on Sidious's orders, to get Obi-Wan to 'join' Dooku.

They didn't even think of Dooku to be a Sith Lord. They even told Padme that Dooku would not be able to order an assasination. Even when it was obvious that Dooku was the threat they can't believe it which was the reason for Mace not killing Dooku before the start of the battle in the Geonosis Arena.
Why would Dooku reveal himself to be a Sith ? Turning Obi-Wan ? Never.

C) In Return of The Jedi, Palpatine's intent was to torture Luke. If you disagree, then explain to me why he frequently stopped to 'gloat'. As shown with Mace, when Palpatine wants to 'kill' someone, he does it without stopping and gloating, then continuing. The website also says he was torturing Luke. Yes. Without Vader's interference, Palpatine would have tortured him to death. But his immediate goal was to make Luke suffer. Period.

He told Luke that Luke's going to die now and uses the full extent of his lightning on him before Vader is throwing him down to the reactor. How he would "torture Luke to death" ? You did realize that Lightning is a dark side abilty relying on very strong emotions and thereby can't realy be inflicted in controlled doses ? That's the reason why Sidious stopped frequently.

D) I never said he faked against either of them. That's Darthsith's theory.

And I was refering to Darthsith and not to you.

E) By 'fair', you must mean 'stupid'. This sense of honor simply doesn't exist. In Star Wars, there is no such thing as a fair fight. When you get into a fight, you fight to 'win'. By any means necessary. Or perhaps you should understand that no Sith Lord abides by such rules of chivalry. Not even Dooku.

Oh please. By "fair" I meant a fight on plain ground - direct confrontation without using "higher ground" and such things. The same way Sidious did fight Mace. In such a surrounding Sidious could not hope to defeat Mace (as seen), Yoda or Dooku.

F) We are referring to 'lightsaber' forms. When Dooku crossed into the Dark Side, he had next to nothing to learn further about Makashi. Only Dark Side principles, lore, and abilities. Which has little to do with the ability to use a lightsaber. Mace was younger and had less experience. His margin for improvement, in lightsaber ability, extends beyond Dooku's.

Erm...how long do you think somebody must practice a fighting style until not being able to refine it any further ? 30 years ? 40 years ? 50 years ? In fact you can always learn some new stuff.

And Mace had to master forms IV, V and VII before creating Vaapad. So do you really want to tell me that somebody that can master 3 forms in a decade of time won't be able to refine a style he created himself to some very high degree in 3 decades ? Sorry...I won't believe that.
So his margin for improvement doesn't really extend Dooku's from TPM to ROTS.

G) That's just your point of view. Lucas stated that you need to be 'Mace' or 'Yoda' to compete with the Emperor. Not 'Dooku'. There is nothing that indicates Dooku is more powerful than his master. They may be close, and I'm not saying Dooku's far off. I'm certain he's still a greater duelist. But the fact of the matter is, the quotes from Lucas, the website, and all other movie implications disagree with your theory that Dooku is more powerful than his master.

Who said that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious, huh ? Don't add ideas to my statement. I only said that Dooku is on a same level with Mace Windu (which is supported by all sources you can name because Dooku defeated Mace - a simple fact) and thereby Dooku would be able to defeat Sidious like Mace did it. Is Mace more powerful than Sidious because he defeated him ? Is Obi-Wan more powerful than Anakin because he defeated him ? No.

Still Dooku has the ability to defeat Sidious and that was all I said. If you can't live with that idea...well...not my problem.

A) You have no proof to support they did what he wanted just out of fear. Indeed, it is more likely that they knew that dear ol' Dooku was just Sidious's personal slave. They knew that Sidious was in charge. Dooku was just the political leader. Grievous was just the military leader. Both took orders from Sidious. He controlled the CIS.

B) In the 'very beginning', they said Dooku wouldn't be able to. But Dooku did not reveal the Sith presence to Obi-Wan until near the very end, where he was captured by the Geonosians. Afterwards, Mace and the others saw that Dooku was willing to murder. And they knew that he turned to the Dark Side.

C) He had only a few seconds to kill Luke, before Vader turned and ejected Palpatine down the reactor shaft. Vader died in the assault, and according to 'Truce at Bakura', Luke was in damn near critical condition because of Palpatine's assault.

D) Again. You do not 'know' that Dooku would beat Sidious. Remember your A vs B analogy? He beat Mace in times before TPM. It doesn't say if he could do so again. In fact, Lucas didn't even mention Dooku when he named off the Emperor's competition. So, even 'if' Dooku could beat Mace. It doesn't necessarily mean he could beat Dooku, by your own logic.

E) Dooku practiced Makashi and still had room for improvement. He was practicing Makishi before Mace was born. Mace, as you pointed out, had to master three forms in a decade. Then Vaapad. He could have gotten increasingly better, because again, at the time he was not as skilled in his forms than Dooku was in Makishi. Mace's margin for improvement 'was' greater than Dooku's.

F) You also do not know if Dooku could beat Mace in the times of ROTS. Again, different times, different circumstances. It is possible that he couldn't have.

And it seems that 'you' can't live with the idea that it isn't guarenteed that Palpatine could be beaten by Dooku, it's not 'my' problem. Again, Nai. You presume your statements are 'fact'. You presume too much.

He gave Orders to "Move" the Seperatist Leaders, in which Grievous basically forced the Leaders to leave. This is not proof that Sidious controlled the Seperatists at ALL. The Clones were losing the War against the Seperatist Army. Sidious wanted the Army gone so he could use the Clones to wipe out the Jedi. A bunch of Droids killing his soldiers wouldn't help them to kill Jedi.

Oh, so giving orders to someone to move isn't evidence that they are subordinates? And tell me, what makes you think that killing the Seperatist leaders would instantly make their army fall apart? And why, if he didn't want his clones blasted apart while killing Jedi, would he have issued Order 66 before the Separatists had deactivated their army (in accordance with the arrangements Sidious had made)? I suppose I should cover my eyes and praise Dooku whenever the scene where Sidious and the Separatists are speaking together comes on screen, and its obvious the Separatists know they're speaking to the true mastermind of the CIS.

Sweet, but several books have contradicted the movies from time to time. (Alright... and? - IKC) Thanks for clearing that up, bud.

Script was elminated. Dooku was one of the only people to know Sidious' true identity. This is actually a FACT.

Alright, so why did you bring up that edited part of the script in the first place? And sorry, it's not an established fact, it's an assumption.

You just agreed with me in a different form. Escape said Sidious only mean't torture, not execution. I am glad you agree with me. Thanks!

You read poorly. I laid out a fairly lengthy case for the fact that Palpatine was torturing Skywalker and enjoying it. At the end is when he released the real magnitude of his power, right before Anakin picked him up and chucked him down the shaft. Oh, and your last two sentences were rather childish.

Sidious had a better mastery of the Dark side and he was smarter. This DOES not prove that Sidious was stronger than Dooku and is irrelevant to what we were speaking of.

Not in the context of your statement (that all we've proved is that Sidious is smarter than Dooku). Oh, and it seems we've gotten you to admit that there's yet another area where Palpatine is superior.

And I suppose we just completly are hopeless to Escape's rays of brilliant debation skills and unparalell knowledge? What the shit? We have been stomping each other, Kid. Get it right.

Cute. But the fact remains that you've not "proven" anything, because Escape's been able to counter you effectively, "Kid."

Originally posted by Escape81
A) You have no proof to support they did what he wanted just out of fear. Indeed, it is more likely that they knew that dear ol' Dooku was just Sidious's personal slave. They knew that Sidious was in charge. Dooku was just the political leader. Grievous was just the military leader. Both took orders from Sidious. He controlled the CIS.

You have no proof to support your own idea. Now where does this lead, hmm ? There is proof that the Trade Federation Leaders will NOT follow Sidious again. And the fact that Sidious gave order to Grievous and Dooku (who made it look like their own plans to the CIS leaders) doesn't mean they knew Sidious was in charge.

B) In the 'very beginning', they said Dooku wouldn't be able to. But Dooku did not reveal the Sith presence to Obi-Wan until near the very end, where he was captured by the Geonosians. Afterwards, Mace and the others saw that Dooku was willing to murder. And they knew that he turned to the Dark Side.

You are supporting my idea. Did you realize that ? Without the attempt to assassinate Padme (which was prevented by Sidious himself by making Obi-Wan and Anakin protect Padme) Obi-Wan would never have visited Kamino or Geonosis.
Before that point Dooku could simply have told the Jedi who was the Dark Lord and Sidious would have lost. It's really as easy as that.

C) He had only a few seconds to kill Luke, before Vader turned and ejected Palpatine down the reactor shaft. Vader died in the assault, and according to 'Truce at Bakura', Luke was in damn near critical condition because of Palpatine's assault.

He did use his full power in the last few seconds and it magically didn't blast Luke into the reactor shaft which it would have done if it wasn't weakening over range.

D) Again. You do not 'know' that Dooku would beat Sidious. Remember your A vs B analogy? He beat Mace in times before TPM. It doesn't say if he could do so again. In fact, Lucas didn't even mention Dooku when he named off the Emperor's competition. So, even 'if' Dooku could beat Mace. It doesn't necessarily mean he could beat Dooku, by your own logic.

Because Dooku was already dead. Because Dooku was on the "same team". Because he didn't even think of a possible fight between Sidious and Dooku.
Please just THINK. Dooku could deflect force lightning with his bare hands - Mace Windu couldn't. Dooku had 2 decades more Jedi training and 3 decades of force training compared to Windu. And Sidious is obviously NOT able to overwhelm Mace or Dooku with force powers nor is he able to do it in a lightsaber duel. So how would he win against Dooku ?

E) Dooku practiced Makashi and still had room for improvement. He was practicing Makishi before Mace was born. Mace, as you pointed out, had to master three forms in a decade. Then Vaapad. He could have gotten increasingly better, because again, at the time he was not as skilled in his forms than Dooku was in Makishi. Mace's margin for improvement 'was' greater than Dooku's.

What a horrible use of logic. Mace is a lightsaber prodigy. Normaly mastering a form takes more than a decade of practicing it. So Mace advances three times faster compared to "normal" people in terms of lightsaber combat. So if he practiced Vaapad for 27 years (in time of TPM) he would be equal to a "normal" person practicing the style for 81 years. Dooku must have been a Padawan when he started to practice Makashi so being 13 years old which means that he practiced that form for 7 decades total or 6 decades in TPM times (when he beat Mace).
And even this is not known since Dooku might have used Ataru before switching styles to Makashi since this was the main form used by his former master (Yoda) and his former Padawan (Qui-Gon).
If this is true Dooku might have started practicing Makashi around 65 years BBY meaning he had practiced it for about the same time Mace praciticed Vaapad in TPM times.

F) You also do not know if Dooku could beat Mace in the times of ROTS. Again, different times, different circumstances. It is possible that he couldn't have.

I do know that Dooku could have defeated Mace in times of AotC going by the WotC SWRPG stats which are Lucas approved. Not that it would matter. They are basically on the same level thereby both able to defeat Sidious.

And it seems that 'you' can't live with the idea that it isn't guarenteed that Palpatine could be beaten by Dooku, it's not 'my' problem. Again, Nai. You presume your statements are 'fact'. You presume too much.

Who was talking about "guarenteed win of Dooku", huh ? Again don't put something in my words I didn't say. I said Dooku would be able to defeat Sidious in a fight on equal ground. He has the ability to do that. That was all I said. If you can do nothing else than willfully missinterpretate my statements to keep a debate running then simply cut it off.

A) He gave orders to the 'Separatist' leadership. Including Gunray and everyone else. Or do you not recall that, Nai? Or are you going to say that 'they did it out of fear'. Speculation. That's all you seem to have.

B) Luke was on the ground, and there were canisters behind him that acted as a rail between him and the edge of the reactor shaft. So no, Palpatine's lightning could not have 'magically thrown him back' when there is a metallic barrier between Luke and the pit.

C) Are you saying you are able to read Lucas's mind when he states a quote? You are a man of enormous talents. Again, you're 'speculating'. He did not mention Dooku's name. It is more likely that he simply didn't think Dooku capable of killing his master. And perhaps Dooku is just capable of deflecting his 'own' lightning, which was generated by him. A possibility.

D) Most people agree that had Sidious 'went all out' like he did with Yoda, he would've beaten Mace. He went in to the fight apparently cocky and overconfident. With Yoda, he didn't.

E) 'Dooku would be able...' - your own words. Thusly, you're saying it is guarenteed that he could kill Palpatine.

[QUOTE=5243235]Originally posted by IKC
Oh, so giving orders to someone to move isn't evidence that they are subordinates? And tell me, what makes you think that killing the Seperatist leaders would instantly make their army fall apart? And why, if he didn't want his clones blasted apart while killing Jedi, would he have issued Order 66 [B]before the Separatists had deactivated their army (in accordance with the arrangements Sidious had made)? I suppose I should cover my eyes and praise Dooku whenever the scene where Sidious and the Separatists are speaking together comes on screen, and its obvious the Separatists know they're speaking to the true mastermind of the CIS.[/B]

The true Mastermind? They feared Sidious. If you inflict fear on someone, who can make them do what you wish? Why eliminate a deadly army of Droids? Do you not understand? They were directly in the way of his plan. He gave Orders to Grievous and told the Seperatist Leaders he would take care of them. This does not provide proof of total control, IKC.

Alright, so why did you bring up that edited part of the script in the first place? And sorry, it's not an established fact, it's an assumption.

You read poorly. I laid out a fairly lengthy case for the fact that Palpatine was torturing Skywalker and enjoying it. At the end is when he released the real magnitude of his power, right before Anakin picked him up and chucked him down the shaft. Oh, and your last two sentences were rather childish.

Am I supposed to give a damn whether I am childish or not? It's an online forum, So take a pill.

No, you see, when it comes to Force Lightning, your emitting it with Darkened energies. It is untamed and nearly uncontrolled. He was KILLING Luke. How hard is this to understand? When he kept Mace there for a while, he was FRYING him, being why he reethed of smoke.

Not in the context of your statement (that all we've proved is that Sidious is smarter than Dooku). Oh, and it seems we've gotten you to admit that there's yet another area where Palpatine is superior.

There is no visible proof that Sidious has better Lightsaber skills, or is more powerful in the Force than Dooku. Dooku feared Sidious because of his Back-up and his intelligence. Sidious feared Dooku for the faction of Betrayal, and maybe his power to a certain extent. This is one of the reasons why Palpatine betrayed Dooku first. He basically had to beat him to it.

Cute. But the fact remains that you've not "proven" anything, because Escape's been able to counter you effectively, "Kid."

You still misunderstand. I have proven plenty, because according to you people, Books are Canon. Read my "Revelations" post. Directly from a book. Unless they aren't Canon, which means Sidious' proof is eliminated, along with Dooku's.

Right, and I haven't been countering him with Shit.

^ Sarcasm is above, my friend. I have proved theories and proof. He has provided the same thing.

D) Most people agree that had Sidious 'went all out' like he did with Yoda, he would've beaten Mace. He went in to the fight apparently cocky and overconfident. With Yoda, he didn't.

_____________________________________________________

A) Show me to most of these "People".

B) He wasn't arrogant with Mace? Word....

Originally posted by Escape81
A) He gave orders to the 'Separatist' leadership. Including Gunray and everyone else. Or do you not recall that, Nai? Or are you going to say that 'they did it out of fear'. Speculation. That's all you seem to have.

Do you ever realize that you're throwing speculation in here too ?
Here some facts:

We never see Sidious talking to the CIS leaders directly until the scene on Mustafar. Neither in AotC nor in ROTS. Why ? Even when he gives orders to Dooku and Grievous they make them look like their own ideas when talking to the CIS leaders. Why ?
The only possible answer is that the CIS leaders didn't know anything about Sidious being the mastermind behind Dooku and Grievous. And to support this idea:

a)
When you see Grievous talking to the CIS leaders Gunray (I think it was Gunray) said that Grievous wouldn't be able to provide security without the help of Dooku. Why would they doubt it when they already knew that Sidious was behind the entire action ?

b)
In AotC Dooku said that the Trade Federation only works with him because fighting against the Republic being controlled by the same Sith Lord that betrayed them in TPM (and that was what Sidious did). Why would the CIS waste resources to fight a war for a person that once betrayed them.

c)
When Sidious is talking to the CIS leaders directly Gunray didn't seem to be very lucky that Sidious plans have worked once again. So one of the CIS leaders wasn't lucky about Dooku being killed (Sidious plan), about Grievous being killed (again Sidious plan) and about Sidious taking over the Republic and creating an Empire which is one of the worst possible scenarios for capitalistic organisations (basically the entire CIS).

And now please tell me why they would have followed orders coming from Sidious directly if NOT because of fearing him.

B) Luke was on the ground, and there were canisters behind him that acted as a rail between him and the edge of the reactor shaft. So no, Palpatine's lightning could not have 'magically thrown him back' when there is a metallic barrier between Luke and the pit.

It would have crushed all his bones being slammed against those canisters with the power you estimate. And note that Luke did recover faster from the attack than Yoda in ROTS despite the fact that Yoda only received a short "hit" while Luke was fried for more than 30 seconds AND Sidious intended to kill him with the last blast. What a miracle.

C) Are you saying you are able to read Lucas's mind when he states a quote? You are a man of enormous talents. Again, you're 'speculating'. He did not mention Dooku's name. It is more likely that he simply didn't think Dooku capable of killing his master. And perhaps Dooku is just capable of deflecting his 'own' lightning, which was generated by him. A possibility.

Oh. Are you able to read Lucas's mind when saying it's more likely that he simply didn't thing Dooku capable of killing Sidious ?
Dooku was dead already when Sidious first engaged in direct confrontations. So Lucas had no reason to think about Dooku or give his name because he was already dead. And that's what he most likely did - not thinking about Dooku.
And please. Dooku's ability is simply based on defensive force techniques. If he can deflect his own lightning he can deflect any lightning especially considering the fact that he did it quite effortless.

D) Most people agree that had Sidious 'went all out' like he did with Yoda, he would've beaten Mace. He went in to the fight apparently cocky and overconfident. With Yoda, he didn't.

He did laugh like a maniac while fighting Yoda - doesn't seem to be more concentrating on the fight compared to the fight with Mace.
He's basically fighting the same way he did fight Mace (lightsaber wise). The only reason why the fight with Yoda looks faster is that Sidious and Yoda were completely CGI here where he and Mace weren't in their fight.
Compare that is like comparing the OT lightsaber fights to the PT lightsaber fights. They aren't compareable. Because if you do that and go by things that can be seen even Obi-Wan and Anakin (on ROTS level) could have defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel.

E) 'Dooku would be able...' - your own words. Thusly, you're saying it is guarenteed that he could kill Palpatine. [/B]

Oh please excuse me for English not being my native language but if you want to take it with a pinch of salt:
"Being able" to do something means that you have the ability to do something. And in this case "ability" can be seen as a synonym for "potential". So Dooku is a potential competition for Sidious or (maybe you finally understand it) there is a very high possibility that Dooku would be able to defeat Sidious in direct confrontation which is not a guarantee that he will do it. Got it now ? Hope so...

I hate to point out your glaring mistakes, Nai, but it's shown in Labyrinth of Evil, TPM, and Cloak of Deception that Darth Sidious himself contacts the Trade Federation leaders via hyperspace transmission. Whether or not the Neimoidians had faith in Grievious protecting them is probably more doubt in Sidious' word, since they just lost their homeland and were fleeing into exile. At least Dooku had lots of political power and money, and they like money.

In any case, I just wanted to point that out.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I hate to point out your glaring mistakes, Nai, but it's shown in Labyrinth of Evil, TPM, and Cloak of Deception that Darth Sidious himself contacts the Trade Federation leaders via hyperspace transmission. Whether or not the Neimoidians had faith in Grievious protecting them is probably more doubt in Sidious' word, since they just lost their homeland and were fleeing into exile. At least Dooku had lots of political power and money, and they like money.

In any case, I just wanted to point that out.

If you want to point out my mistakes, Janus, don't make mistakes yourself. TPM and Cloak of Deception aren't of any use here because both are located in a time period where there was no CIS so the events mentioned there simply don't matter.

LoE does matter but the book was written when ROTS was already finished and I guess James Lucano - as much as I like him - had mistaken some events in the film (see the thing mentioned below a), b) and c) in my last posting) the very same way he did when stating there were only 600.000 clones left right before ROTS (missinterpretation of the 1.2 mio clones line in AotC). For me this is simply contradicting the movies because of the things that can be seen and concluded out of the things shown in the movies.

But hey. It's only my oppinion and if Lucas doesn't show up and tells something different (which he won't most likely do)...well...you know that it's hard if not impossible to change my views on certain topics especially when you can't prove me wrong which won't most likely happen here.

You've gotten almost impossible to deal with, Nai. You've got a long winded answer for everything and your mind all made up.

Who the hell wants to even discuss things with you anymore? Not me.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
If you want to point out my mistakes, Janus, don't make mistakes yourself. TPM and Cloak of Deception aren't of any use here because both are located in a time period where there was no CIS so the events mentioned there simply don't matter.

LoE does matter but the book was written when ROTS was already finished and I guess James Lucano - as much as I like him - had mistaken some events in the film (see the thing mentioned below a), b) and c) in my last posting) the very same way he did when stating there were only 600.000 clones left right before ROTS (missinterpretation of the 1.2 mio clones line in AotC). For me this is simply contradicting the movies because of the things that can be seen and concluded out of the things shown in the movies.

But hey. It's only my oppinion and if Lucas doesn't show up and tells something different (which he won't most likely do)...well...you know that it's hard if not impossible to change my views on certain topics especially when you can't prove me wrong which won't most likely happen here.

Wont prove you wrong? Is there ever going to be a point when you finally realize that your opinion isn't written in stone, or what?

Like you have never been proven wrong. Pfft, get off it. Seriously.

Drop the Ego, bud. It's making me want to puke.

It IS Impossible to change your view. You'd say the Sun is black and it would be right.

This is why I appreciate and respect Deus. He is of the same opinion that Dooku could best his master. And though he and I disagree, he still does not deny facts, unless he is truly unaware of them. If they exist, it seems that he acknowledges them.

But Nai, I don't know you too well, and I don't want to seem quick to judge, but you seem to be of the opinion that your mindsetting is fact. The last few statements in your response to Deus is 'disappointing' to say the least.

Oh please...

Neither is my oppinion carved into stone nor it's impossible to change it.

Nevertheless...on topics where everything is based on speculation on or personal interpretation of information given I do have my own oppinions based on my personal interpretation and speculation. And in order to prove me wrong there has to be some "proof" to do it - which isn't there when something is based on personal views.

That does not mean that I think of my own oppinions (as I said - based on speculation and personal intrepretation) as the absolute truth (which they can't be) nor does it mean that I think of my own oppinions being superior to that of anybody else. In fact I see my own oppinions on the same level of that of others when the topic is speculative and their oppinion contradicts my own.
But I won't change my oppinion because of other people's oppinion who are in the same way speculative or based on personal interpretation. That does not mean that I do not respect other people's view. If that would be the case I wouldn't even bother to write something here.

If I write something here than it's my oppinion and the thoughts that led me to that oppionion. But I don't expect to change the view of others because I know that other people are thinking for theirselves and through their own process of thinking maybe come to other conclusions than me. That's fine with me because otherwise there would be no discussions here.

And to come back to the original topic:
Can somebody provide proof for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku. No, because that fight never happened. Can I provide proof for Dooku being able to defeat Sidious. Obviously not for the same reason nobody can provide proof for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku.
Does it make sense trying to change somebody's oppinion on that topic considering the fact that there is no proof for one of the two sides ? No.

Can somebody provide proof for Sidious directly commanding the CIS around before his connections to the CIS (Dooku and Grievous) were killed from the things seen in the movies ? No.
Can I provide proof for Sidious never doing something like that from the things seen in the movies ? No.
And again: Does it make sense trying to chance somebody's oppinion on that topic ? No.

That was what I wanted to say and maybe my last words on the last posting were not formulated precisely enough and therefore "disappointing". I never wanted to say that nobody in this forum would ever be able to change my oppinion on a certain topics. In fact that was done on some ocassions. As I said: If that would be the case I won't even post here (or wait...I would post things like "HAHA ! IDIOT ! YOU'RE WRONG !"😉 and save me some time. But for this particular topic here it can't be done because everything is based on speculation and personal interpretation.

Hope I was able to explain some things.

The point, Nai, is that you're becoming very narrow minded in your debates. Sometime a little bit ago you decided on a certain "truth", or "opinion".. I think the way it goes neither term is accurate to describe what you subscribe to... In any case, no one wants to debate with you anymore because you're annoying to debate with. Take a look at that last post. First words out of your mouth...

Oh please...

Neither is my oppinion carved into stone nor it's impossible to change it.

Does this not sound arrogant to you, Nai? I realize I'm not exactly mister low and humble, but you sound like this damn near everytime you post.

If you want to point out my mistakes, Janus, don't make mistakes yourself

More arrogance. "How dare you point out mistakes" kinda deal. Considering that you might be wrong, you should reevaluate your position and confirm the information, instead of saying something like this. My point was that Sidious DID contact Separatist forces himself, namely the Neimoidians. I don't recall when the hell this became in issue in this fight and if you really believe that since we have no "proof" that it's pointless to speculate and try to change one another's decisions, you should consider leaving this forum.

You're the second person (And from Germany no less... I thought they had scholars, scientists, and geniuses over there... What are they teaching now? Close mindedness?) in as many days to argue one point, and then when it seems you won't get your way you say "omg it's a debate without 100% proof so we can't speculate it". You just want to throw out the whole deal or have everyone accept your opinion on this. THAT is the height of arrogance, and I am sorely disappointed in you. You can consider yourself breaching even the vaguest rules of ettiquette in debate at this point.

And let me provide you with one of your classic arrogant line starters here... pick one for your rebuttal, Nai.

"Erm..."

"Oh please..."

"Uh... no..."

"Whatever."

(Insert long spiel here about nothing.)

And btw, your PT jedi theory hold about as much validity as wet toilet paper holds buildings.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
The point, Nai, is that you're becoming very narrow minded in your debates. Sometime a little bit ago you decided on a certain "truth", or "opinion".. I think the way it goes neither term is accurate to describe what you subscribe to... In any case, no one wants to debate with you anymore because you're annoying to debate with. Take a look at that last post. First words out of your mouth...

Does this not sound arrogant to you, Nai? I realize I'm not exactly mister low and humble, but you sound like this damn near everytime you post.

Well...in this case I have to apologize. It wasn't my intention to sound arrogant.

More arrogance. "How dare you point out mistakes" kinda deal. Considering that you might be wrong, you should reevaluate your position and confirm the information, instead of saying something like this. My point was that Sidious DID contact Separatist forces himself, namely the Neimoidians. I don't recall when the hell this became in issue in this fight and if you really believe that since we have no "proof" that it's pointless to speculate and try to change one another's decisions, you should consider leaving this forum.

Again. Missinterpretation Janus. Don't get me wrong. It's my fault if I'm not able to adress things as I want to adress them. But in this case you simply threw in sources that can't be used here.

You're the second person (And from Germany no less... I thought they had scholars, scientists, and geniuses over there... What are they teaching now? Close mindedness?) in as many days to argue one point, and then when it seems you won't get your way you say "omg it's a debate without 100% proof so we can't speculate it". You just want to throw out the whole deal or have everyone accept your opinion on this. THAT is the height of arrogance, and I am sorely disappointed in you. You can consider yourself breaching even the vaguest rules of ettiquette in debate at this point.

Oh nice. You want to attack me personal ? Great. So what have you been taught in your educational career so far. Etiquette ? Hardly when you aren't even able to accept apologies. Show some indulgence because I'm not writing things down here in my native language (which might lead to some missunderstandings) ? Obviously not.
Talking about arrogance you are the one here arrogant enough to tell me what I'm really thinking - despite the fact I just tried to tell you that this was not the case - and you dare to call me arrogant ? You want to tell me that I'm breaching the rules of etiquette ? Very nice, Janus.

And let me provide you with one of your classic arrogant line starters here... pick one for your rebuttal, Nai.

Just for your information:
"Erm..." - when I'm writing this I'm thinking something like "Do you think that's right ?" Displays a thinking process on my own side. Arrogant ?

"Oh please..." - written by me when encountering missinterpretation of my own words like here. Arrogant ?

"Uh... no..." - I don't recall using this.

"Whatever." - translated into "wie auch immer" (which might be wrong) which I normaly use like a "Calm down people. Not worth the fight". Arrogant ?

And btw, your PT jedi theory hold about as much validity as wet toilet paper holds buildings.

Thank you for telling me. So it has the same value as every single posting you have done here so far. Nice to hear that. (That was arrogant).

Can we stop this now or you want to start a medium scale war here (The entirety of the Versus Forum VS Evil arrogant ******* Nai Fohl) ?

Just to add it:

I don't recall when the hell this became in issue in this fight and if you really believe that since we have no "proof" that it's pointless to speculate and try to change one another's decisions, you should consider leaving this forum.

It's not pointless to speculate or discuss something here when there is no "proof" but it's pointless trying to change another's point of view without being able to provide proof.

It can't simply be the direct goal of a discussion to make other people change their opinion. You can't persuade people into change their mind you have to convince them. Therefore entering a discussion with the absolute goal to make people change their opinion is counterproductive.

The first goal of a discussion must be to make people think about a certain topic and let them make up their own opinion. If you disagree with their opinion you can provide another opinion or different ideas on the topic (speculation, interpretation of facts) thereby make others think about their own opinion again and maybe change it.

But - in terms of language theory and philosophy - the main goal of a discussion is to reach a consent or a certain level of consensus. And this can't be archived by running into a thread and shout "Eat this or die !" Have I ever done that ?

In fact I have a very Socratic mindset considering discussions and therefore I'm always asking questions and hope to receive some answer - same I did in my last "on topic" post here. I'm not trying to force people to accept my own opinion - I want people to think about their own opinions and therefore I often enough do play the "advocatus diaboli" here (taking extreme positions) and try to make people evaluate my ideas an reevaluate their own. That's what you learn here in Germany, not "close mindedness".

If you don't want to discuss with me - that's your decision. But I won't simply watch my words or actions being intentionally misjudged nor will I ignore childish attempts to insult me.

Bah, you go far too deep, Nai.

Everyone is always saying "Hmm.... Sorgo must be stupid. He always makes these really short posts. Nai and this other guy make long posts. Their intelligence level must be +80!"

Wrong.

It is just an online forum. Each selective words you post are usually semantics about something most people wont even bother to read, except for the cross-debater.

The bottom line is more than one person has spotted your bluntly placed Arrogance.

I am just tired of KMC entirely. Floods of Noobs have been coming in raiding this Forum with their Toilet bowl knowledge and turdish semantics.

And they don't express it as an opinion. They slip arrogance into it. For example:

Sorgo: Hmm... I think Yoda could defeat Kit Fisto.

Noob9182: WTF? NO HE COUDLNTY'. THATS A FACTT!

^ I now run into the above daily here at the EU and other Forums. It's f*cking bullshit and I am cracking down, so to say.

The New Jawa Order is back - And for a good damn reason: To rebel against Pathetic noobs.

Yeah yeah, I was a Noob once, but I damn well know I never put my shit down as God given fact. EVER!

Sure, I have my many theories about Dooku, but read the previous word: THEORIES!

Or my "Theories" about other things. Unless I can find shit that is reasonable Canon, then it remains my Theory and my Opinion. But these Noobs coming out with false information and petty remarks....

I've had ENOUGH.