ROTS Sidious, ROTS Vader, Darth Maul vs. Dooku, Ventress, Greivous

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, if I may, I think you just don't want to 'believe' that he feared Palpatine. He did. Dark Rendezvous showed it accurately, and it did not interfere with the movie. So it is canon. And as you so accurately said, it was a 'rumor'.

Forgive me for the lack of modesty... but that rumor was just blown away a few posts up. If Dooku intended on betraying his master, he would have killed Palpatine. That also would've caused Anakin to go farther down the Dark Side. Palpatine was also apparently defenseless. And yet Dooku did not strike.

Prove that the book is Canon. Ever read how Kit Fisto dies in the Episode III Novelisation and how he dies on the movie? Do not rely on a book to turn your opinion over onto me.

It wouldn't have been that easy to kill Palpatine. Dooku knew of his Master Plan and the fact that he had major control points on Dooku, the Republic, The Jedi, and almost everything else. He kept his positioning normal until the final moments on the Invisible hand, where his plans were turned directly against him. I'd be afraid of him too. He has several secret central points of power, but Dooku wanted him out of the picture, or he wanted more power out of Palpatine's rise.

I *AM* the Dooku Fanboy, but I am for a good reason. I wouldn't be his Fanboy if he wasn't a Character and I can realize his faults, but trying to scratch it in stone that Dooku "feared" Palpatine is absurd. Palpatine knew what Dooku was up to. Why didn't he face Dooku directly instead of creating a staged scene to corner Dooku's demise? Maybe Palpatine didn't wish to face Dooku directly. Sure, Palpatine wanted Dooku out of the way to eliminate the CIS so that they wouldn't *CRUSH* the Grand Army of the Republic, but he never faced Dooku in Lightsaber combat or force. He didn't face him directly to kill him.

Because Palpatine didn't want to risk his life. Why do you think he wanted to run from Yoda? Why do you think he hit several stationary points in the Seperatist Organization? He did certain things himself, like taking out the Jedi directly.

We have seen in many moments that Dooku may be stronger in the Force. Janus has said this before in previous arguements that there is no direct proof that Sidious is stronger than Dooku in the Force.

Alot of us here also hold the opinion that Dooku is a greater Lightsaber combatant than Palpatine.

Do you ever think that maybe.... JUST maybe.... Palpatine may actually have feared Dooku? Maybe not majorly, but in a small way? Sidious has grown on deception. He killed his Master, and he knows the Way of the Sith. The apprentice WILL go after the Master. He knew Dooku was powerful, that is why he chose him.

Do you even wonder that maybe Palpatine feared that Dooku would slaughter him and take his title? Do you think maybe that is why he wanted a younger and more vulnerable apprentice?

Think on that.

Originally posted by Escape81
And as for the Mace Windu and Palpatine affair; I do not believe it was propped up for faked. I simply believe Palpatine slaughtered three Jedi Masters, observed Mace, and assumed he could best him as easily as he did with the others. He was very wrong, and his arrogance nearly got him killed. When he realized that Mace was far beyond the Jedi that Palpatine dispatched, he was too late to use his superior Force powers.

Sorgo, if I may, I think you just don't want to 'believe' that he feared Palpatine.

and Yoda in terms of weight is nothing compared to Anakin.

Well...in terms of a duel Sidious won't be able to overcome Dooku with force lightning since Dooku can deflect it or at least he would be powerful enough to block it with his lightsaber (like Mace did in ROTS).

Sidious was born in 84 BBY and Dooku in 102 BBY so Dooku is 18 years older than Sidious and was trained from infancy on. Still Dookus lightning used with one hand seems to be compareable to what Sidious can do with twohanded lightning.

Yoda is by far the fastest in terms of movement in the PT era and he is the strongest lightsaber duellist.

Vader in ANH ? Please don't even think of comparing the OT to the PT in terms of lightsaber fights. They didn't have the ability to create complete CGI characters like they did in the PT (Sidious vs Yoda is complete CGI scene) and they weren't able to put the face of an actor over a stunt double (which they did for Dooku's fight sequences in AotC).

Ok for the first Im not going to debate about

Second- The other person typed weight and you said size doesnt matter...

Third- Yoda had no saber he lost it remember? And he deflected lightning back at sidious, note: he was right next to him. Dooku was at least a few meters away.

4th- Again why was it so easy to catch Dooku's lightning?

5th- Vader is slow, He moved faster in ESB because skywalker was forcing him to.

Again. A book is canon as long as it does not interfere with the movie. Episode III's novelization does, in various parts, so it therefore cannot be considered canon. However, Dark Rendezvous does not conflict with the movie, so it is considered, 'canon'.

There is, actually, nothing that indicates Palpatine fears Dooku. There is more that indicates the reverse... i.e:

1. Dark Rendezvous
2. Dooku's loyalty to Palpatine

Nothing, however, indicates that Palpatine feared Yoda. Again, the true objective of the battle on Invisible Hand was to push Anakin further to the Dark Side. Anakin detested Dooku, and by giving in to his anger, he would be closer than ever to the Dark Side. On the very precipice. It is clear that Dooku himself knew the plan, but not that Palpatine intended for him to die. If you'd like to dispute that, Dooku's own expression betrays that he had no knowledge of Palpatine's murderous intentions and treachery.

By Palpatine's own statements, Anakin would've become stronger than him or Yoda. Now, Dooku is powerful. And you might be able to argue that he is stronger than Palpatine. But 'Yoda'? Now you're stretching it. Dooku is not, in any way, greater than Yoda, other than sheer dueling capacity, but that would still not be enough for Dooku to defeat him.

Palpatine intended to recruit Anakin because of his potential. Anakin is also virtually inept at anything but killing, so Palpatine could manipulate him unusually easy. Also, Palpatine could mold him, in essence, from scratch. A subserviant and total servant. Not bound by honor and loyalty that the Count has.

Palpatine wanted more than a mere apprentice. He wanted a 'slave'.

And it is more 'absurd' to accuse Palpatine of fearing Dooku than the reverse. Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice. Whatever his master asked, Dooku did. He did it to the best of his ability - which is a lot. But for all of this, Dooku remained only knowledgeable of certain 'parts' of the plan. The parts that Palpatine wanted him to know. And that was it. If Dooku 'truly' knew of Palpatine's intentions, he'd have left, or killed Palpatine straight on the spot.

And as for 'the apprentice will go after the master', there are some cases that prove this theory invalid. There are always, Sorgo, exceptions to the rule.

And once again. If Dooku so outclasses his master, he wouldn't have been used by Palpatine, nor would he have bowed down. Dooku was a very clever, very powerful man.

But he feared his master. And Janus - I think is Deus Ex? - clearly states that he agrees. Dooku 'feared' his master, though we do not know what he feared.

By Palpatine's own statements, Anakin would've become stronger than him or Yoda. Now, Dooku is powerful. And you might be able to argue that he is stronger than Palpatine. But 'Yoda'? Now you're stretching it. Dooku is not, in any way, greater than Yoda, other than sheer dueling capacity, but that would still not be enough for Dooku to defeat him.

Who said Dooku was stronger than Yoda? Huh?

Palpatine intended to recruit Anakin because of his potential. Anakin is also virtually inept at anything but killing, so Palpatine could manipulate him unusually easy. Also, Palpatine could mold him, in essence, from scratch. A subserviant and total servant. Not bound by honor and loyalty that the Count has.

A mere point of view, my friend. The way I see it, Palpatine knew Dooku would betray him. Dooku was extremely powerful. Why would Palpatine elminate someone so powerful out of the blue? Well, several explanations could come in handy. Maybe he wanted Dooku gone for the fear that he may turn on him. Or maybe Dooku was getting old and Palpatine wanted a new apprentice.

Palpatine wanted more than a mere apprentice. He wanted a 'slave'.

And it is more 'absurd' to accuse Palpatine of fearing Dooku than the reverse. Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice. Whatever his master asked, Dooku did. He did it to the best of his ability - which is a lot. But for all of this, Dooku remained only knowledgeable of certain 'parts' of the plan. The parts that Palpatine wanted him to know. And that was it. If Dooku 'truly' knew of Palpatine's intentions, he'd have left, or killed Palpatine straight on the spot.

Dooku knew of Palpatines plans for the future and for the army. He carried the Death Star Plans, he told Kenobi about the betrayal the Jedi would soon see, not to mention I am sure Dooku wouldn't be stupid enough to join the Sith for a fake ideal. He knew of it all. Maybe he knew too much...

And as for 'the apprentice will go after the master', there are some cases that prove this theory invalid. There are always, Sorgo, exceptions to the rule.

Usually, An apprentice will seek out plans to destroy a Master. Malak, Yuthura, Sion, Nihilus.... The Apprentice is always known to try at least once to betray the Master.

And once again. If Dooku so outclasses his master, he wouldn't have been used by Palpatine, nor would he have bowed down. Dooku was a very clever, very powerful man.

He could have done this all for his plan to crush the Jedi completly. Palpatine was already a Sith Lord and Dooku was starting out. What is he gonna do? Say "Sidious, please step before me even though I just started becoming a Sith. Thanks a bunch". No, he had to serve under him, learn what he is capable of, get to know his plan, and then finally try to crush him after ten long years of planning. Sounds good enough to me.

But he feared his master. And Janus - I think is Deus Ex? - clearly states that he agrees. Dooku 'feared' his master, though we do not know what he feared.

What you have given me, and what I have given you leads me to believe they feared each other.

Originally posted by Escape81
By Palpatine's own statements, Anakin would've become stronger than him or Yoda. Now, Dooku is powerful. And you might be able to argue that he is stronger than Palpatine. But 'Yoda'? Now you're stretching it. Dooku is not, in any way, greater than Yoda, other than sheer dueling capacity, but that would still not be enough for Dooku to defeat him.

Palpatine intended to recruit Anakin because of his potential. Anakin is also virtually inept at anything but killing, so Palpatine could manipulate him unusually easy. Also, Palpatine could mold him, in essence, from scratch. A subserviant and total servant. Not bound by honor and loyalty that the Count has.

Palpatine wanted more than a mere apprentice. He wanted a 'slave'.

And it is more 'absurd' to accuse Palpatine of fearing Dooku than the reverse. Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice. Whatever his master asked, Dooku did. He did it to the best of his ability - which is a lot. But for all of this, Dooku remained only knowledgeable of certain 'parts' of the plan. The parts that Palpatine wanted him to know. And that was it. If Dooku 'truly' knew of Palpatine's intentions, he'd have left, or killed Palpatine straight on the spot.

And as for 'the apprentice will go after the master', there are some cases that prove this theory invalid. There are always, Sorgo, exceptions to the rule.

And once again. If Dooku so outclasses his master, he wouldn't have been used by Palpatine, nor would he have bowed down. Dooku was a very clever, very powerful man.

But he feared his master. And Janus - I think is Deus Ex? - clearly states that he agrees. Dooku 'feared' his master, though we do not know what he feared.

I feel like making a Sig. Want a Sig, Escape?

1. You said he wanted Anakin, because he was less powerful than Dooku. At the time, yes, but had he reached his potential, he would be able to crush Dooku, Yoda, or Palpatine. Which is why Palpatine looked to corrupt and transform him into his new apprentice.

2. 'A mere point of view'... Look, Sorgo. My 'point of view' has more proof than yours does, to support. Dark Rendezvous is canon. It states that Dooku feared Palpatine. In fact, Assaj confronted him and told him to work with her to betray Palpatine. He refused.

3. No. He did 'not' know all of it. Again, if you view his expression as Anakin executes him, it's 'shock'. He taunted and leered at Anakin on Palpatine's command, not to try and manipulating him into joining Dooku for some botched rebellion against Palpatine. Hasn't it been proven that Dooku detests Anakin? I likely don't see them working together to kill Palpatine. Again. All evidence points 'away' from your opinion.

4. Key word. 'Usually'. Dooku was a loyal man. He even denied the chance to return with Yoda, when he was confronted in Dark Rendezvous. And Yoda is the most powerful Force-user of that time. Again. He 'fears' his master too much.

5. You're telling me Dooku joined, initially, just to try and stop Palpatine's plans? Unbelievable. No, if that were his intentions, he would have done so at Geonosis. He wouldn't have needed to start, and carry out the war, if he 'knew so much' about Palpatine's plans. He knew only what his master wanted, and was loyal to the Sith cause.

6. No. Palpatine saw Dooku as a powerful man, but saw Anakin as someone who could be made much more powerful, and who was young, fresh, and easily manipulated. The exact opposite of what Dooku was. And so he chose Anakin, and had Dooku killed.

Second- The other person typed weight and you said size doesnt matter...

Third- Yoda had no saber he lost it remember? And he deflected lightning back at sidious, note: he was right next to him. Dooku was at least a few meters away.

5th- Vader is slow, He moved faster in ESB because skywalker was forcing him to.

Nothing, however, indicates that Palpatine feared Yoda.

By Palpatine's own statements, Anakin would've become stronger than him or Yoda.

Escape81, wow. Your like a debating god. You may very well be the best debater here.

Ah ah, watch it, Janus or Illustrious might come after you.

1. You said he wanted Anakin, because he was less powerful than Dooku. At the time, yes, but had he reached his potential, he would be able to crush Dooku, Yoda, or Palpatine. Which is why Palpatine looked to corrupt and transform him into his new apprentice.

Too bad he didn't reach his potential. I am sure Palpatine had more than one reason to kill Dooku.

2. 'A mere point of view'... Look, Sorgo. My 'point of view' has more proof than yours does, to support. Dark Rendezvous is canon. It states that Dooku feared Palpatine. In fact, Assaj confronted him and told him to work with her to betray Palpatine. He refused.

The books are not venerable Canon. Lucas has said the comics, movies and CW are Canon. He NEVER said the books are Canon. They have nothing to do with lucas.

3. No. He did 'not' know all of it. Again, if you view his expression as Anakin executes him, it's 'shock'. He taunted and leered at Anakin on Palpatine's command, not to try and manipulating him into joining Dooku for some botched rebellion against Palpatine. Hasn't it been proven that Dooku detests Anakin? I likely don't see them working together to kill Palpatine. Again. All evidence points 'away' from your opinion.

In the original script, Dooku says "But you promised me amnesty!".

There is several points of the reason for Palpatine killing Dooku. They could all be true.

What would that signify, Escape?

4. Key word. 'Usually'. Dooku was a loyal man. He even denied the chance to return with Yoda, when he was confronted in Dark Rendezvous. And Yoda is the most powerful Force-user of that time. Again. He 'fears' his master too much.

Wow, I smell Sidious fanboyism. Dooku left the Jedi because of Jinn's death and the Jedi corruption. Why the *HELL* would he rejoin something he is completly against?

5. You're telling me Dooku joined, initially, just to try and stop Palpatine's plans? Unbelievable. No, if that were his intentions, he would have done so at Geonosis. He wouldn't have needed to start, and carry out the war, if he 'knew so much' about Palpatine's plans. He knew only what his master wanted, and was loyal to the Sith cause.

Wrong. Dooku joined to "take over" Sidious' plans. He waited patiently until he built his own army, sat back in standby serving his Master who most likely funded his Armies, and waited to betray him. You don't think Dooku wanted power?

6. No. Palpatine saw Dooku as a powerful man, but saw Anakin as someone who could be made much more powerful, and who was young, fresh, and easily manipulated. The exact opposite of what Dooku was. And so he chose Anakin, and had Dooku killed.

Dooku was growing old and Sidious did want a new apprentice, but I am sure Sidious knew Dooku wanted to take over. Sidious knew that sooner or later Dooku would try that because he knows Dooku isn't a fool. Anakin was much more gullible and younger to corrupt.

1. No kidding. But again. Palpatine intended to train Anakin to his full potential, while manipulating him into a servant. Anakin, at full potential, is stronger than Dooku in the Force. I'd pass Dooku up, too, if I had the opportunity to train someone with as much potential as Anakin. You're sure. Again, no proof.

2. If that quote is in text, then Dooku was 'unaware' of his master's true identity. Meaning that he did not know all of Palpatine's plans. Meaning, I'm right.

3. You smell Sidious fanboyism? I just labeled Yoda as the most powerful Force-user of that time. That 'isn't' fanboyism. And please do not accuse 'me' of having a preference. You're over here thinking that Palpatine feared Dooku, when it was the reverse. I like Yoda and Palpatine, and Dooku and Mace. I'm not a fanboy.

4. Proof. PROOF. I want PROOF. Dooku did everything that we've seen BUT try to takeover. You have rumors and theories. Nothing more.

5. Dooku WAS old. Dooku also had less potential than Anakin. Again, Palpatine looked to 'power'. Darth Maul, for example, had no intentions of ever betraying his master. Because he was molded into a servant. Palpatine wanted the same thing to do with Anakin. If Anakin reached his potential, again, he would be far more powerful than Dooku. Or Palpatine. Or even Yoda.

Originally posted by Escape81
1. No kidding. But again. Palpatine intended to train Anakin to his full potential, while manipulating him into a servant. Anakin, at full potential, is stronger than Dooku in the Force. I'd pass Dooku up, too, if I had the opportunity to train someone with as much potential as Anakin. You're sure. Again, no proof.

2. If that quote is in text, then Dooku was 'unaware' of his master's true identity. Meaning that he did not know all of Palpatine's plans. Meaning, I'm right.

3. You smell Sidious fanboyism? I just labeled Yoda as the most powerful Force-user of that time. That 'isn't' fanboyism. And please do not accuse 'me' of having a preference. You're over here thinking that Palpatine feared Dooku, when it was the reverse. I like Yoda and Palpatine, and Dooku and Mace. I'm not a fanboy.

4. Proof. PROOF. I want PROOF. Dooku did everything that we've seen BUT try to takeover. You have rumors and theories. Nothing more.

5. Dooku WAS old. Dooku also had less potential than Anakin. Again, Palpatine looked to 'power'. Darth Maul, for example, had no intentions of ever betraying his master. Because he was molded into a servant. Palpatine wanted the same thing to do with Anakin. If Anakin reached his potential, again, he would be far more powerful than Dooku. Or Palpatine. Or even Yoda.

You cannot proove Anakin would have become more powerful than Dooku if he had his full Potential. Hell, there is large speculation this Potential is unexistant.

4. Proof. PROOF. I want PROOF. Dooku did everything that we've seen BUT try to takeover. You have rumors and theories. Nothing more.

Youi have rumors and theories as well. Don't trip over your own contradiction, Escape.

Dooku WAS old. Dooku also had less potential than Anakin. Again, Palpatine looked to 'power'. Darth Maul, for example, had no intentions of ever betraying his master. Because he was molded into a servant. Palpatine wanted the same thing to do with Anakin. If Anakin reached his potential, again, he would be far more powerful than Dooku. Or Palpatine. Or even Yoda.

Now you're just repeating yourself, and I will do the same. Funny how this potential was never unlocked. Maybe it is because it doesn't exist. Just like the widely spread theory that the Chosen one bullshit is unexistant.

2. If that quote is in text, then Dooku was 'unaware' of his master's true identity. Meaning that he did not know all of Palpatine's plans. Meaning, I'm right.

It is a FACT that Dooku knew his Master's true identity. He was the only person to have known that besides Anakin after Dooku dies. He knew his plans because he told Kenobi of them in Episode II. Direct Quote coming up...

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would sense it.
Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious

^ He knew that Sidious had complete control over the Republic and the Senate. So please.

Count Dooku: Join me, and together we can destroy the Sith.
Obi-Wan: I will never join you.

Sounds weird, don't it? He wanted to go against Sidious. He always did. He either wanted to destroy the Sith or control them.

Taken from Episode III Script:

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don’t use them.

Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. COUNT DOOKU has the open chance to dispatch Anakin. COUNT DOOKU instead awaits Anakin's attack. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.

^ He was trying to unlock Anakin's dark side and kept to his Sub-Form and made a fatal mistake doing so. I could imagine if Anakin gave in, he would have slaughtered Sidious were he sat and killed Kenobi and walked out with his new apprentice. Why would he let Sidious live after gaining an apprentice? At that moment, Dooku had Grievous and Quinlan Vos working for him. If he had another apprentice, especially one such as Anakin, he would be virtually unstoppable, including the fact he would continue his rampage with the esteemed Seperatists. He would *NOT* have kept Sidious Alive.

3. You smell Sidious fanboyism? I just labeled Yoda as the most powerful Force-user of that time. That 'isn't' fanboyism. And please do not accuse 'me' of having a preference. You're over here thinking that Palpatine feared Dooku, when it was the reverse. I like Yoda and Palpatine, and Dooku and Mace. I'm not a fanboy.

What makes you think he wouldn't fear the fact that Dooku would use his army, turn on him and ruin his plans? That is why he had him killed. That and his army would have taken down the GAR and stopped his plan to wipe out the Jedi.

1. Palpatine's statements: 'He will become stronger than either of us'. Lucas stated that if Anakin reached his potential (and it does exist), that he would be 200 percent what Sidious is. Now, I don't give a damn what you say here. Dooku NOR Yoda are 200 percent Sidious. Sorry.

2. The movies and books again, lean in my favor. There is NOTHING that indicates Dooku is stronger than his master. Considering how Lucas and the website claim Sidious to be 'the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times' and the 'paragon of the Dark Side'.

3. No. I can influence someone without necessarily being in official charge of them. The same for Palpatine. By the statement that YOU provided from the script, it shows that Dooku was oblivious to Palpatine's identity. Perhaps he knew that 'Sidious' had power over the Senators. But that doesn't mean he told him that he was chancellor. But then again, there may have been a reason that this particular line was CUT from the movie.

4. 'Together we can destroy the Sith'. Gee... Now this was false. See, 'Dooku' is a Sith. He was just trying to get Obi-Wan to join him.

5. Again. Anakin hates DOOKU. He didn't hate Palpatine. If he went to the Dark Side, he would've tried to kill DOOKU. DOOKU was luring Anakin to the Dark Side on PALPATINE'S orders. Because if DOOKU was doing it to try and kill PALPATINE, then DOOKU was doing something particularly STUPID. Anakin hated HIM. Not Palpatine.

6. As we've seen, the Separatists knew that Dooku was only the 'public leader'. Sidious led the CIS. And as 'Palpatine', he led the Republic. So Dooku HAD no army. It was Sidious's.

Originally posted by Escape81
1. Palpatine's statements: 'He will become stronger than either of us'. Lucas stated that if Anakin reached his potential (and it does exist), that he would be 200 percent what Sidious is. Now, I don't give a damn what you say here. Dooku NOR Yoda are 200 percent Sidious. Sorry.

2. The movies and books again, lean in my favor. There is NOTHING that indicates Dooku is stronger than his master. Considering how Lucas and the website claim Sidious to be 'the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times' and the 'paragon of the Dark Side'.

3. No. I can influence someone without necessarily being in official charge of them. The same for Palpatine. By the statement that YOU provided from the script, it shows that Dooku was oblivious to Palpatine's identity. Perhaps he knew that 'Sidious' had power over the Senators. But that doesn't mean he told him that he was chancellor. But then again, there may have been a reason that this particular line was CUT from the movie.

4. 'Together we can destroy the Sith'. Gee... Now this was false. See, 'Dooku' is a Sith. He was just trying to get Obi-Wan to join him.

5. Again. Anakin hates DOOKU. He didn't hate Palpatine. If he went to the Dark Side, he would've tried to kill DOOKU. DOOKU was luring Anakin to the Dark Side on PALPATINE'S orders. Because if DOOKU was doing it to try and kill PALPATINE, then DOOKU was doing something particularly STUPID. Anakin hated HIM. Not Palpatine.

6. As we've seen, the Separatists knew that Dooku was only the 'public leader'. Sidious led the CIS. And as 'Palpatine', he led the Republic. So Dooku HAD no army. It was Sidious's.

1. No one said Dooku or Yoda were "200 percent". Show me proof Lucas said this about Anakin's full potential, please.

2. Yeah, the most powerful "Practitioner of the Sith Ways". This could mean Dooku was more tactical, smarter and had more Lightsaber skills. This only means that Sidious MAY be more powerful in the force.

3. I guess his Identity doesn't matter much.
🙄

Dooku knew that Sidious had control of the Republic, and if he knew his Identity, well you do the math.

4. As you said, Theories and Speculations, Escape.

5.
What makes you think Dooku wouldn't have manipulated Anakin and told him Palpatine was a treacherous Sith Lord? He could have just said that Palpatine forced him to leave the Order. He could have easily wooed Anakin to come to his side. Dooku didn't want to serve under Palpatine any longer. He either wanted him dead or wanted him out of the WAY.

6.
Wrong. Dooku OWNED the CIS. Why do you think Palpatine killed Dooku, Grievous and the Neimodians that controlled the Seperatists? They were killing his tool to destroy the Jedi. Why wouldn't Sidious just take over the CIS and use them as an asset? It wasn't his damn army.

1. George Lucas. Vanity Fair Magazine interview. Read it and weep.

2. 'Smarter'? Rofl... Okay, Lol, Sorgo, I'm almost out of patience here. According to you, Dooku had to leech off of Sidious's scheme for the destruction of the Jedi. And for a guy 'smarter' than Sidious, he was killed on his master's orders. Effectively 'outwitted' and manipulated. Intellect? Dooku's DAMN smart. But Palpatine's the 'smartest' guy in the OT and PT.

3. Oh my God. Sorgo, please understand this effectively. You don't necessarily have to be the 'official' leader of something, to influence it or control it.

4. Please. Again, the movies lean in MY favor. Not in yours. ALL of your arguments are theories and speculations.

5. Considering how, again, Dooku has no proof to show Anakin, and how Anakin wouldn't believe him anyway, I don't think Dooku could've done it. And 'easily'? No. Palpatine's better at manipulating than Dooku could ever 'dream' of. And if 'he' didn't do it easily, I know Dooku couldn't. If he could do it easily, he would've Sorgo. Sorry. But for your own term... 'Theories and speculations'.

6.

1. Dooku - because he wanted a new apprentice.
2. Grievous - he didn't cause Grievous's death.
3. CIS 'Leaders' - because he built the Empire out of the 'Republic'. So he couldn't let them waltz away freely. If you recall, Palpatine still made everyone think he was against the CIS. So he had to kill them.

1. George Lucas. Vanity Fair Magazine interview. Read it and weep.

Find some article to proove this. I am sure he would have said it somewhere else. I am a realist, Escape.

2. 'Smarter'? Rofl... Okay, Lol, Sorgo, I'm almost out of patience here. According to you, Dooku had to leech off of Sidious's scheme for the destruction of the Jedi. And for a guy 'smarter' than Sidious, he was killed on his master's orders. Effectively 'outwitted' and manipulated. Intellect? Dooku's DAMN smart. But Palpatine's the 'smartest' guy in the OT and PT.

I can imagine Palpatine was being the smartest guy when his preminition f*cked up and he got bench pressed into a Generator, yes?

Dooku was BETRAYED! Shit happens! But that doesn't change the fact that he wanted to be Master of the Sith and sooner or later would have planned to try to take over, which is what he wanted to do on the Invisible Hand. Sidious was sort of "Testing" Anakin to see if he could kill a powerful Sith Lord, and meanwhile Dooku was playing Anakin and tried to get him to join him and the Dark side to rule together. Dooku failed. End of story. Dooku didn't change his Lightsaber form and got his ass unexpectedly f*cked over.

Oh my God. Sorgo, please understand this effectively. You don't necessarily have to be the 'official' leader of something, to influence it or control it.

Understand this: Sidious destroyed the CIS because it was in the way of his Plans. Bottom line. He didn't control it at all. It was Dooku's army.

Please. Again, the movies lean in MY favor. Not in yours. ALL of your arguments are theories and speculations.

You have only provived speculation and theories here. Saying that Sidious is more powerful is a speculation. Lots of apprentices have known to outclass their Master and try to destroy them, like attacking their flagship, or killing them in their sleep.

5. Considering how, again, Dooku has no proof to show Anakin, and how Anakin wouldn't believe him anyway, I don't think Dooku could've done it. And 'easily'? No. Palpatine's better at manipulating than Dooku could ever 'dream' of. And if 'he' didn't do it easily, I know Dooku couldn't. If he could do it easily, he would've Sorgo. Sorry. But for your own term... 'Theories and speculations'.

He told the Jedi in the first place that their was a Sith Lord on the rise. Why not take Anakin under his wing, tell him to keep quiet, alert the Jedi that Sidious is the Dark Lord and have them go after him.

Palpatine is better at manipulating. When you're that cowardly, you *HAVE* to be manipulating. He always had someone working for him. He could never do anything himself. He would have had to manipulate. Dooku takes care of things mostly on his own. Yes, he has an array of Apprentices and a large army, But most of the time, he does the swordfighting when needed.

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1. Dooku - New apprentice/Ddin't want him to take over and ruin his Plans.
2. Grievous - Another CIS General. When Mace annouced Grievous was dead, Sidious smiled. He would have had Anakin eliminate him either way.
3. CIS 'Leaders' - They were going directly against the Grand Army of the Republic and had an edge winning of the War. Sidious needed the Clones -AND LOTS OF THEM- for Order 66. He wanted the Seperatist army out of the way for that. He also didn't want another army in the stance of his new empire and the danger of the CIs growing, so he had them destroyed for an easier Galactic takeover.

1. It's the March 2005 issue of Vanity Fair. If you don't believe me, buy the magazine or ask someone who has a copy online.

2. What the hell...? Palpatine's dumb because he got killed, whereas it's mere coincidence that Dooku got killed? The 'shit happens' excuse is only valid for DOOKU? The guy who YOU said is secretly trying to betray his master?

Curious indeed...

3. Theories and Speculation.

4. The website says he's stronger. The movies directly imply it. The novels imply it. You have NOTHING that even IMPLIES it, let alone STATES it.

5. Again. They thought he was LYING. Secondly. He HATED Anakin. Thirdly. Palpatine is a FAR greater manipulator and HE didn't do it easily. So could Dooku? NO.

[QUOTE=5234120]Originally posted by Escape81
1. It's the March 2005 issue of Vanity Fair. If you don't believe me, buy the magazine or ask someone who has a copy online.

[B]2. WHAT THE HELL?!!?!?!? Palpatine's dumb because he got killed, whereas it's mere COINCIDENCE that Dooku got killed? The 'shit happens' excuse is only valid for DOOKU? The guy who YOU said is secretly trying to betray his master?

All in circumstance, my friend. Sidious thought his preminition was 100% correct. His arrogance lead to his demise. Same with Dooku. His arrogance lead to his demise. But, c'mon, Sidious got thrown into a bloody generator, for christs sakes!

Hell no. Lol, you proved RIGHT there how biased for Dooku you really are. I'm going to take Deus's advice and just not argue with you anymore.

3. Theories and Speculation.

Er... Nice reply?

4. The website says he's stronger. The movies directly imply it. The novels imply it. You have NOTHING that even IMPLIES it, let alone STATES it.

Hmm... Sidious didn't fight Dooku himself. You said it yourself, the reason Sidious didn't fight Yoda is because he knew of his power. Well, let's see here. Sidious is known to overestimate his opponents. Why not overestimate Dooku and whoop his ass if he is so much STRONGER?!

Instead, he got his new apprentice to do it. Don't try to tell me Sidious "Didn't wanna ruin his identity, or it was a reason to get Anakin to turn to the Dark side." If any reason, it would turn Anakin to the LIGHT. He just killed a dangerous Sith Lord. I shout Light points! Argh!

5. Again. They thought he was LYING. Secondly. He HATED Anakin. Thirdly. Palpatine is a FAR greater manipulator and HE didn't do it easily. So could Dooku? NO.

Why not? Sidious did it under direct circumstances. If Anakin was wooed over a fifteen second dream sequence, what makes you think he isn't easily manipulated? Besides, that is only one of my many theories.
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In conclusion, Sorgo, you proved above that certain rules apply to Dooku and not to Sidious. You also proved that you are far more biased than for REASON to kick in. I daresay you wouldn't believe Dooku was weaker if Lucas himself tatooed the statement to your arm. You seem to be a cool guy and all, but in this topic, you're DELUDED.

Rules apply? THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH TWO DIFFERENT POSITIONS! What makes you think they wouldn't have different rules? Jesus!

Escape81 Im confident you will bring the light of knowledge to this dark place.