Originally posted by Princess Diana
Chaos cloud not wave.and its very bad Astronomy 🙂
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/news/killercloud.html
as usually Cresh and GS speek half truths 🙂
Cresh didnt mean say it was the same thing so i fail to see your point? 😉
Originally posted by Princess Diana
I see so his point was pointless - theres a suprise 🙂
No he was just highlighted how while we're reading house of M with its Chaos wave thats collapsing realities in its wake a Chaos cloud is apparrently breaking down celestial bodies in our universe. That was very interesting coincidence and far from pointless. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No he was just highlighted how while we're reading house of M with its Chaos wave thats collapsing realities in its wake a Chaos cloud is apparrently breaking down celestial bodies in our universe. That was very interesting coincidence and far from pointless. 🙂
read the link I posted 🙂
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wanda's "chaos wave" was foreshadowing our own imminent demise.
September 19, 2005
Sometimes, I wonder how gullible people can be.
Yahoo!News, which will repeat anything it finds on the web as if it's true, published an article on September 12th about a "chaos cloud" headed toward Earth. This cloud, the article breathlessly exclaims,
...dissolves everything in its path, including comets, asteroids, planets and entire stars -- and it's headed directly toward Earth!
Oh no! Fear! Horror!
... skepticism? Disbelief? C'mon, folks! The source of this story is the Weekly World News. This is the same epic rag that brought us BatBoy, remember.
I can make this clearer: it's a joke. J O K E. The tabloid is satirical, not meant to be taken seriously, a, well, a joke. A joke.
I hope I've made myself clear.
Perhaps, just maybe, you weren't aware that the WWN is a joke newspaper (at least one friend of mine had never heard of it), so in that case you are marginally forgiven. But the next step to check the article's veracity would be to google the name of the scientist mentioned in the article, Dr. Albert Sherwinski. All you get are: references to the WWN article. Perhaps that might tip you off.
taken from
I don't know, man.
You are standing on very faulty logic ground, GS.
You're saying essentially that there are no alternatives and that everything is an absolute (well, at least Jean Grey), which is inherrently wrong, because of the concept of causality.
I see where X is coming from.
If Scarlet Witch stopped Jean Grey from being born in reality, you are saying Jean would be born, or at least exist, anyway, because she's an absolute by Kaballistic teachings which state that who you are predates your physical birth.
What you seem to not be able to grasp is that there is a concept called "possibility", which is related to causality.
You are so busy trying to preach that Jean/Phoenix is an absolute that you are discounting every logical counter with seemingly empty retorts upon further analysis, which I know you are above.
It's funny how demi trying to be a smartass found a giant loophole in the Phoenix debate.
Phoenix is not above possibility, GS.
TOAA didn't have to create, he chose to create.
That simple concept in itself, the choice of creating, proves the point of causality, and it's divergents: probability and possibility.
(God, we are getting way to deep to be debating fictional comic books).
It is a possibility, however unlikely, that in a battle with Scarlet Witch, the Phoenix Force would abandon Jean Grey's physical form and realize that Blob was it's actual archtypical form for physical manifestation, or that TOAA itself could deem that the Phoenix Force was no longer necessary and would be replaced by the Eric Cartman from South Park Force, or the Phoenix Force could splinter into a million shards and combat itself for eternity.
Those are all possibilities, even if far fetched.
You did say this yourself:
Wanda is a high order reality warper she can control causation the relationships between objects, events,variables etc. As you rightly said she can cause the most unlikely events to occur with a thought. She can warp reality around her as she chooses. That is enormously powerful , however the limits of that are Wandas power is restricted to reality and all that exists within its borders. When dealing with a being whose very nature, its very essence is derived from beyond the realms of reality and causality then Wanda is stumped.
Jean Grey is not beyond reality or causality.
Existence is existence, which is reality.
Phoenix exists, so it's in reality.
It's simply a different form of being.
By your own account of Kaballah, beings in reality are simply physical representations of our essences in the White Hot room.
Who we are, our very essence predates our birth into creation. That is an idea in Kaballah. Life helps us remember our true selves and through death we can be reconciled with our archetypal forms in the white hot room..
This applies to all life. You can't have it both ways, man.
There are possible ways for Phoenix to lose, which in itself give Scarlet Witch an ace.
As for the Jamie Braddock thing, I don't know why they chose to use him as the protaganist in the story arc. Scarlet Witch turned Dr. Strange into Dr. Phil, and Franklin Richards was wiped from existence, but somehow Jamie Braddock is beyond her abilities. It's probably just a character quota thing at Marvel where writers have to use obscure characters in storylines to fill in space. Like Detective Chimp in the Days of Vengeance storyline in DC. Or it could be that Jamie was simply far enough away from the epicenter that the effects somehow didn't harm him.
Or maybe because Claremont's a tool, and he's writing "New Excalibur".
I don't know, ask Marvel.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't know, man.You are standing on very faulty logic ground, GS.
You're saying essentially that there are no alternatives and that everything is an absolute (well, at least Jean Grey), which is inherrently wrong, because of the concept of causality.
I see where X is coming from.
If Scarlet Witch stopped Jean Grey from being born in reality, you are saying Jean would be born, or at least exist, anyway, because she's an absolute by Kaballistic teachings which state that who you are predates your physical birth.
What you seem to not be able to grasp is that there is a concept called "possibility", which is related to causality.
You are so busy trying to preach that Jean/Phoenix is an absolute that you are discounting every logical counter with seemingly empty retorts upon further analysis, which I know you are above.
It's funny how demi trying to be a smartass found a giant loophole in the Phoenix debate.
Phoenix is not above possibility, GS.
TOAA didn't have to create, he chose to create.
That simple concept in itself, the choice of creating, proves the point of causality, and it's divergents: probability and possibility.
(God, we are getting way to deep to be debating fictional comic books).
It is a possibility, however unlikely, that in a battle with Scarlet Witch, the Phoenix Force would abandon Jean Grey's physical form and realize that Blob was it's actual archtypical form for physical manifestation, or that TOAA itself could deem that the Phoenix Force was no longer necessary and would be replaced by the Eric Cartman from South Park Force, or the Phoenix Force could splinter into a million shards and combat itself for eternity.
Those are all possibilities, even if far fetched.
You did say this yourself:
Jean Grey is not beyond reality or causality.
Existence is existence, which is reality.
Phoenix exists, so it's in reality.
It's simply a different form of being.
By your own account of Kaballah, beings in reality are simply physical representations of our essences in the White Hot room.
.
This applies to all life. You can't have it both ways, man.
There are possible ways for Phoenix to lose, which in itself give Scarlet Witch an ace.
As for the Jamie Braddock thing, I don't know why they chose to use him as the protaganist in the story arc. Scarlet Witch turned [B]Dr. Strange
into Dr. Phil, and Franklin Richards was wiped from existence, but somehow Jamie Braddock is beyond her abilities. It's probably just a character quota thing at Marvel where writers have to use obscure characters in storylines to fill in space. Like Detective Chimp in the Days of Vengeance storyline in DC. Or it could be that Jamie was simply far enough away from the epicenter that the effects somehow didn't harm him.Or maybe because Claremont's a tool, and he's writing "New Excalibur".
I don't know, ask Marvel. [/B]
If I had become Queen this poster would recieve a knighthood
Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't know, man.You are standing on very faulty logic ground, GS.
You're saying essentially that there are no alternatives and that everything is an absolute (well, at least Jean Grey), which is inherrently wrong, because of the concept of causality.
I see where X is coming from.
If Scarlet Witch stopped Jean Grey from being born in reality, you are saying Jean would be born, or at least exist, anyway, because she's an absolute by Kaballistic teachings which state that who you are predates your physical birth.
What you seem to not be able to grasp is that there is a concept called "possibility", which is related to causality.
You are so busy trying to preach that Jean/Phoenix is an absolute that you are discounting every logical counter with seemingly empty retorts upon further analysis, which I know you are above.
Im saying that if Scarlet Witch stopped the Jean Grey shell from being born then Phoenix would still exist. Jean Grey is just the shell phoenix manifests in creation. Phoenix in human form. So while the essence of what is Jean Grey would still exist in the white hot room as Phoenix the shell wouldnt be born. However that doesnt mean Phoenix couldnt manifest into creation by any means. What form that would be in i wouldnt like to guess lol. But in essence it would still very much be Jean.
I see where X is coming from also but this isnt a science debate and the stuff we're debating about here cant necessarily be dissected with logic. Logic and science cant be applied in a satisfactory manner to matters of religion or comics and especially not to a medium where the two are combined. You're talking as if i came up with the principle. All i did was highlight how the principle was in place.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Phoenix is not above possibility, GS.TOAA didn't have to create, he chose to create.
That simple concept in itself, the choice of creating, proves the point of causality, and it's divergents: probability and possibility.
(God, we are getting way to deep to be debating fictional comic books).
It is a possibility, however unlikely, that in a battle with Scarlet Witch, the Phoenix Force would abandon Jean Grey's physical form and realize that Blob was it's actual archtypical form for physical manifestation, or that TOAA itself could deem that the Phoenix Force was no longer necessary and would be replaced by the Eric Cartman from South Park Force, or the Phoenix Force could splinter into a million shards and combat itself for eternity.
What you're talking about here is the Scarlet Witches power interfering with or overriding decisions made by Marvels supreme being and thats not feasible Ill. Not in any circumstance.
Scarlet Witches power is restricted to the confines of reality. i.e 616. The comic depiction of reality is made quite clear and it appears it is different to yours. Scarlet Witches manipulations and the resultant chaos wave didnt affect the white hot room because it is beyond reality in another plane of existence. All Phoenix is, all factors that determine her being come from on high. They are not things which can be affected by manipulating causality.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean Grey is not beyond reality or causality.Existence is existence, which is reality.
Phoenix exists, so it's in reality.
It's simply a different form of being.
By your own account of Kaballah, beings in reality are simply physical representations of our essences in the White Hot room.
.
This applies to all life. You can't have it both ways, man.
There are possible ways for Phoenix to lose, which in itself give Scarlet Witch an ace.
The comic definition of reality is entirely different to yours and thats where the above falls apart. Reality in the comic sense is a universe. (Or at least a reality is) Just existing does not place you within the borders of reality im afraid Ill. Certainly not in comic book terms which are the terms we need to be considering here. Wandas powers can be freely applied to a reality,if she breaks down the branes between universes by unleashing a chaos wave then she can apply her power to any reality but her powers are still confined to creation. All beyond that verges into the divine and is not determined by logic,science and is certainly not within her abilities to manipulate. If it is well id love to see some evidence. In house of M it was made quite clear her power was restricted to creation and the fact that the white hot room, (t"he heart of phoenix"😉 was left untouched supports that.
Its not a case of me having it both ways Ill. The Kaballah application to Marvel is botched and isnt applied to all things Marvel but instead is just the treatment applied to Phoenix. Until evidence is presented that shows its the case for all life then what you've said doesnt apply to all life. In fact in classic X-men while Jeans death took her to the white hot room the afterlife of others was handled by the abstracts Death. Other beings had a place in Death towers. That situation as you now know wasnt the same for Phoenix.
Originally posted by illadelph12
As for the Jamie Braddock thing, I don't know why they chose to use him as the protaganist in the story arc. Scarlet Witch turned [B]Dr. Strange into Dr. Phil, and Franklin Richards was wiped from existence, but somehow Jamie Braddock is beyond her abilities. It's probably just a character quota thing at Marvel where writers have to use obscure characters in storylines to fill in space. Like Detective Chimp in the Days of Vengeance storyline in DC. Or it could be that Jamie was simply far enough away from the epicenter that the effects somehow didn't harm him.[/B]
Well Strange is only as powerful as the power he invokes. Th epower isnt inherent to him which explains why he was completely affected. Franklin Richards temporarily is powerless. Although after House of M 7 that might not be so temporary. Jamie is a reality warper and he was able to protect himself. Simple as. For all we know he may have had some as yet undisclosed part in the whole affair.
Your post was really good and if this was debate of science and real life then your comments would be irrefutable. As it stands Wanda has no command over that which derives from and is determined by the Crown (White Hot room.) Despite your suggestions that which is determined by TOAA is not in Wandas ability to affect. If you disagree then come up with the goods. Otherwise its just speculation.